China Lost World War II

[gambit]

If you did understand Marxism, socialism is the initial stage of communism following capitalism. The official ideology of the CPC in the constitution itself is establishing China as a socialist state, while communism was regarded as a very far away objective.

So what you are saying today is what people outside of the communist world knew all along -- that the USSR and China royally fooked up when they tried to impose Marxism by force, bypassing the natural evolution of human consciousness as posited by Marx.

Like I said many times in the past that the monastery have been the only successful Marxist society to date, let us know when your China is one giant monastic society where everyone obeys Marx: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Looks like your leadership have a looooooooooooooooooong way to go considering their assets far exceeds their needs, all the while they piously spout Marxist platitudes to the gullible Chinese masses.

Go play with your dirt and leave the intellectual work for us who have larger brains. Thank you.

Those with larger brains certainly do not include you and your fellow Chinese on this forum. And yer welcome.

 

[Nick81]

Oh I got a bit confused. I thought we were discussing the scale of misery inflicted upon the people of India by her incompetent government as well as wild, savage thugs murdering tens of thousands of their fellows in sectarian conflict, bride burnings, race riots and police actions.

Alas, you got me there! While you can cite pretty accurate Indian statistics (though I don't know where they are from) to support your argument, I cannot cite similarly reliable Chinese statistics. This is a natural advantage that an opaque country that concocts statistics enjoys over an open country that cannot do so.

 

[gambit]

It's you avoid my question. Would capitalist give freedom and independence to vast Asia, middle east, Africa if they didn't face the communism influences? What power could stop the evil colonial system? Except for Communism, any other obvious choices during mid 20th century?

You can use any ideology and politics to free yourself. It does not have to be Marxism/communism and this is where you failed to understand. The reason why Marxism/communism were so attractive was that it emphasized -- far better than other ideologies and politics -- the differences between the rich and the poor, the exploited and the exploiters, the political elites and the politically oppressed.

When you present stark contrasts the intent is to induce initial attraction and you work your ways from that point. The problem for you is that once you are past that point you convinced yourself that what you done was the only way it could have been done.

So going by your ways of thinking, if Marxism/communism was the only way for China to gain independence, then the US and allies were the only ways for the defeat of Imperial Japan in WW II.

What you said10 cords, 5 cords of wood is about technoloy. When jobs will been done by high-yield robots, any tools, it's not a big problem at all.

And you guys are supposed to be the superior Asiatic race ?

My question have NOTHING to do with technology but with the ideological foundations and their differences. My point is that I -- and no one else -- have the right to my labor. If I cut 10 cords of wood but need only 5 cords of wood to keep warm, what I do with the other 5 cords of wood IS MY BUSINESS. The fact that I have an extra 5 cords of wood created inequality between you and I. That inequality came from the differences of mentality where I worked harder than you. It is natural for everyone to feel entitled to what they labored for. I can give that extra cords of wood away to you, if I chose to do so. Or I can barter it for more food for the winter. Or I can just throw it away. What I do with the excess of my labor IS MY BUSINESS.

Marxists do not think that way. To a Marxist, inequality in itself justifies everything he does. To a communist, nothing is outside of the state. As long as one person and his/her interactions have consequences and effects to others, the state is fully justified in intrusions into his/her personal lives. That is exactly what your China did at one point when the state put everyone into collective farms. Families were separated. Husbands cannot live with their wives and families had their children taken away from them to be raised by the state. Do not deny that history like your fellow Chinese have done in the past on this forum. The result was morally and socially horrific for China as the communist experiment failed to produce the paradise your communist leadership envisioned.

 

[Speeder 2]

Those with larger brains certainly do not include you and your fellow Chinese on this forum. And yer welcome.

Of course not, we have the largest.

 

[TheTruth]

Alas, you got me there! While you can cite pretty accurate Indian statistics (though I don't know where they are from) to support your argument, I cannot cite similarly reliable Chinese statistics. This is a natural advantage that an opaque country that concocts statistics enjoys over an open country that cannot do so.

These stats are easily corroborated by accounts from foreigners in China, internal documents, and extrapolating economic trends backward.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Land reform is not the same as killing hundreds of thousands in the name of reform. You are confused. You assume that no reform is possible without death and displacement. Communism teaches that to justify the destruction it inevitably wreaks upon a nation. The major source of well-being for farmers will come through the use of modern technology, better access to capital and less dependence on agriculture through economic diversification. Why do you think your governmet has been building new cities at such speed and forcing people to live in these new cities? Surely not as part of "land reform"?



Oh I got a bit confused. I thought we were discussing massacre by Communist dictatorships of their own people. Death, on the other hand, is a natural event.

forcing people to live in the city? holy fk you are dumber than you sound. in India why are there so many rural migrants swarming the Mumbai slums? because the cities are simply better in infrastructure.

 

[Nick81]

These stats are easily corroborated by accounts from foreigners in China, internal documents, and extrapolating economic trends backward.

Accounts from foreigners: who are not allowed access to any credible info and are given North Korea-style guided tours.
Internal documents: which are amenable to fudging based on Party diktat.
Extrapolation of economic trends: Chinese economic trends are incredulous. A boom in housing normally means increased demand for housing; in China it means ghost cities where no one lives.

forcing people to live in the city? holy fk you are dumber than you sound. in India why are there so many rural migrants swarming the Mumbai slums? because the cities are simply better in infrastructure.

The BBC somehow got access to what otherwise will never be revealed in a country which hides everything:
White Horse Village: Has urbanising China worked? - BBC News

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Accounts from foreigners: who are not allowed access to any credible info and are given North Korea-style guided tours.
Internal documents: which are amenable to fudging based on Party diktat.
Extrapolation of economic trends: Chinese economic trends are incredulous. A boom in housing normally means increased demand for housing; in China it means ghost cities where no one lives.



The BBC somehow got access to what otherwise will never be revealed in a country which hides everything:
White Horse Village: Has urbanising China worked? - BBC News

you sound exactly like the Soviet visitors to the US who were convinced that their tours of NYC and silicon valley were guided and that if they walked a few blocks away they'd see the ghettos and barrios.

 

[TheTruth]

Accounts from foreigners: who are not allowed access to any credible info and are given North Korea-style guided tours.
Internal documents: which are amenable to fudging based on Party diktat.
Extrapolation of economic trends: Chinese economic trends are incredulous. A boom in housing normally means increased demand for housing; in China it means ghost cities where no one lives.

Better than a country so incompetent that their figures can never be trusted, ignoring of course the fact that you don't actually have any transparency and your officials are just as prone (or more prone) to fudging numbers. Who knows how many hundreds of millions of Indian children died from 1950-1970 when you barely had a functioning government.

 

[bolo]

Too many " if "s.

If US left Asia tomorrow, we will kill all the Japanese. (I think you will agree with that)

So,TRUST ME,you should be thanking the United States.

A loser always love "ifs"

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Forget how I sound, where is the externally verified data on China's socio-economic performance?

Official Chinese economic statistics, from unemployment to arable land, are controlled by the Communist Party and therefore cannot be trusted. The prevailing American and global view of China as a rising, if presently troubled, economic superpower is based on this unreliable data. Evaluation of selected economic, financial, and sociopolitical indicators shows them to be inconsistent and most likely inaccurate, so that American and global decision making is badly informed. A sustained effort to compile more accurate data on China would clarify China’s global economic role and improve the basis for U.S. policymaking and limit taxpayer exposure.
China's Unreliable Economic Statistics: What it Means for the US

Many experts on China's economy are often puzzled by its difficult-to-understand economic indicators. In addition to the country's vast size and complicated economic structure, market watchers are often finding statistics released by the Chinese government to be unreliable.
One example is economic growth rates expressed as gross domestic product. Unlike Japan and other developed countries, the Chinese government sets its GDP growth target each year. If the GDP target cannot be achieved, it will ruin the government's reputation. There is often a gap between growth rates released by the government and business sentiment. That will make many wonder if these figures are reliable.
Unreliable statistics: Change for China's shady economic indicators?- Nikkei Asian Review

Over the last six decades, it's fair to say the PRC has had an uneasy relationship with official statistics. China's economic growth figures, in particular, have always been taken with a grain of salt by serious economists. Much of the skepticism of recent years stems from the late 1990s when they were unable to reconcile falling power consumption and widespread state enterprise closures with the rapid growth rates reported by Beijing.
China's Unreliable Economic Statistics - Businessweek

Please try your anecdotal bullshit where it works. PDF has provided some major Chinese losers a platform to preen about their country's so-called achievements. You are not questioned over the veracity of your claims here. So you have grown sloppy and forgotten that your crooked statistics are a matter of public knowledge.

lol, k, you think its fake statistics. but then the physical infrastructure is there. You think that the physical infrastructure, the average life expectancy, the literacy rate, the electricity/steel/computer production, the benchmarked supercomputers, the Nature published papers, the seismic data and orbital data verified nuclear and missile testing - all fake? A **** ton of things with evidence collected not by China but by the US, Russia and EU would have to be fake for China to even be merely twice as good as India instead of literally 10x better.

So what you are saying today is what people outside of the communist world knew all along -- that the USSR and China royally fooked up when they tried to impose Marxism by force, bypassing the natural evolution of human consciousness as posited by Marx.

Like I said many times in the past that the monastery have been the only successful Marxist society to date, let us know when your China is one giant monastic society where everyone obeys Marx: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Looks like your leadership have a looooooooooooooooooong way to go considering their assets far exceeds their needs, all the while they piously spout Marxist platitudes to the gullible Chinese masses.


Those with larger brains certainly do not include you and your fellow Chinese on this forum. And yer welcome.

China has public ownership of the means of production, living standards are going up and public infrastructure is some of the best in the world. Regardless of what you say lol.

 

[Nick81]

Better than a country so incompetent that their figures can never be trusted, ignoring of course the fact that you don't actually have any transparency and your officials are just as prone (or more prone) to fudging numbers. Who knows how many hundreds of millions of Indian children died from 1950-1970 when you barely had a functioning government.

I see that you have chosen a very convenient timeline for a "barely functional" government in India - '50-'70. This falls squarely in the middle of the (1958-1962) famine in China, caused by the Great Leap Forward. Estimates vary as to how many died - some estimate the number to be as high as 45 million. Trying to revise historical facts to show that India was doing equally badly if not worse fits in naturally with the revisionist nature of Chinese history:

Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million.
Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years' - News - Books - The Independent

Can you name the greatest mass murderer of the 20th century? No, it wasn’t Hitler or Stalin. It was Mao Zedong.
According to the authoritative “Black Book of Communism,” an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China. Anyone who got in his way was done away with -- by execution, imprisonment or forced famine.
The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder

The total death toll during Mao's reign of genocide is estimated between 65-78 million. Chinese policy seems to be to defend the indefensible. As long as the murder was caused in the name of the Revolution, it is fine. It suddenly becomes a problem when the Japanese are involved. Suddenly, a lot of outrage pours in. Typical hypocrisy and double-standards...

 

[cnleio]

I see that you have chosen a very convenient timeline for a "barely functional" government in India - '50-'70. This falls squarely in the middle of the (1958-1962) famine in China, caused by the Great Leap Forward. Estimates vary as to how many died - some estimate the number to be as high as 45 million. Trying to revise historical facts to show that India was doing equally badly if not worse fits in naturally with the revisionist nature of Chinese history:

Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million.
Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years' - News - Books - The Independent

Can you name the greatest mass murderer of the 20th century? No, it wasn’t Hitler or Stalin. It was Mao Zedong.
According to the authoritative “Black Book of Communism,” an estimated 65 million Chinese died as a result of Mao’s repeated, merciless attempts to create a new “socialist” China. Anyone who got in his way was done away with -- by execution, imprisonment or forced famine.
The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder

The total death toll during Mao's reign of genocide is estimated between 65-78 million. Chinese policy seems to be to defend the indefensible. As long as the murder was caused in the name of the Revolution, it is fine. It suddenly becomes a problem when the Japanese are involved. Suddenly, a lot of outrage pours in. Typical hypocrisy and double-standards...

Mao Zedong is here at Tian Anmen watching the BeiJing military parade, who as the national builder of World N.o2 Economy & World Top3 military force, the member of UNSC P5. Mao Zedong is the 'Murder' to the foreign, but the Saviour to strong China ! Did ur country or government do better than China built by Mao ?

 

[xunzi]

Don't troll meaningless here.

in WW II, our Dai Nam emperor Bao Dai is existed and Viet Minh gerrilla Groups has fought counter both France colonial and Japanese army here in Vietnam.

in WW II, China shared same fate like Vietnam. Pynoy and India, no more.

Viet Minh regained full independence for Vietnam by ourselves in second September 1945..

There is no trolling, just stating facts. Vietnam and Philippines got throw around like a rag doll during World War. France colonized you fully, then Japan kicked them out for a short period, ruled you, then Japan defeated. France came back to rule you until you gain independence with the help of CCP. Ask Ho Chi Minh. Same with the Philippines, got fully colonized by Spain, then US colonized them, then Japan invaded and colonized for a short period, then US came to freed them only to re-colonized again until independent in post-WWII. As for the India, let not even mention them. They basically fought under the flag of the British colonial master flag.

For us, we were always an independent country fought in civil war and resisted complete imperialist colonization. Major difference.

 

[Nick81]

Mao Zedong is here at Tian Anmen watching the BeiJing military parade, .....]

You mean to say that the photo of Mao Zedong is watching proudly!!! You sir, are an imbecile...