China latest fighter engine is here, WS10TVC Thrust Vector Control turbofan engine official unveil

[Ali_Baba]

You are talking about in the 80 and early 90s where quantity are key, rugged but easy to operate are the key. Long lifespan are not required. Even US F-5 has poor airframe and low tech but cheap to operate during those times? What is the issue?

Fantan was retired early becos its twin engine are more extensive to operate now compare to Mirage IV and F-7PG.

and you think PAF in 2022 will accept a modern fighter jet that need to be stripped down every 200 hrs for maintenace? You analogy is nothing but a massive failure! Or you are trying to imply PAF evaluation are a bunch of unprofessional team who dont know how to properly evaluate a military hardware properly?

What is a massive failure is the pretence that Chinese engines match western engines when compared with the criteria of procurement costs, fuel consumption rates, thrust, service life, maintenance and MTBO intervals for new Chinese engines

Would PAF buy a substandard product because it had no choice or other options ?? Yes it would ..

 

[araz]

You've already made up your mind, then no one can help you

F-35s Struggle To Fly! Frustrated South Korea Says Its US-Origin Stealth Fighters Marred By Defects

South Korea's lawmakers stated that the nation's F-35 A stealth fighter jets were labeled as operationally unready 234 times over 18 month

eurasiantimes.com

No. Stop bull shitting.
He has asked you some pertinent questions. Either answer them or stay quiet.
Pakistan and the Chinese are brothers. No one will be more happy when China progresses than the Pakistani. However, the engines China has produced, even the russian ones are far behind the West in reliability, MTBO, and TWR. If you want to prove him wrong bring out figures for above to support your point. We are not your enemies but brothers. However just because we are your brothers does not mean we will accept anything you try to shove down our throats.
A

 

[Beast]

What is a massive failure is the pretence that Chinese engines match western engines when compared with the criteria of procurement costs, fuel consumption rates, thrust, service life, maintenance and MTBO intervals for new Chinese engines

Would PAF buy a substandard product because it had no choice or other options ?? Yes it would ..

LOL... You are absolutely talking garbage here. If so, why not stick with more JF-17? Why would PAF go for J-10CE? Also, Pakistan could have asked for AL-31FN engine from Russia for their J-10CE fleet. But no, it didnt...

So how your statement contradict each other.

 

[TheSolution]

Also, Pakistan could have asked for AL-31FN engine from Russia for their J-10CE fleet. But no, it didnt...

How do you know they didn't?

China could have sold it on the pretense that you purchase it with the Chinese engines.

There is too less available information to be certain

 

[etylo]

How do you know they didn't?

China could have sold it on the pretense that you purchase it with the Chinese engines.

There is too less available information to be certain

No, china wont stop pakistan getting the Russian engines if it desires instead, dont be that paranoid saying that china forces pakistan to take its lesser engines for J 10 CE, back up your speculation or claim with evidence that china does so, otherwise its just your own speculation. If russian engines AL 31-FN are indeed better for J 10C, China wont replace the fighter planes with Chinese domestically made engines on a massive scale, it would be just foolish to do that for the Chinese air force.

 

[TheSolution]

No, china wont stop pakistan getting the Russian engines if it desires instead, dont be that paranoid saying that china forces pakistan to take its lesser engines for J 10 CE, back up your speculation or claim with evidence that china does so, otherwise its just your own speculation. If russian engines AL 31-FN are indeed better for J 10C, China wont replace the fighter planes with Chinese domestically made engines on a massive scale, it would be just foolish to do that for the Chinese air force.

Everything in this discussion was speculative, no one provided any evidence... because there is none. So I provided a speculative possibility that counters his narrative.

No available official information on the engines.

We simply don't know for sure about it's true performance in comparison to western engines.

 

[etylo]

What is a massive failure is the pretence that Chinese engines match western engines when compared with the criteria of procurement costs, fuel consumption rates, thrust, service life, maintenance and MTBO intervals for new Chinese engines

Would PAF buy a substandard product because it had no choice or other options ?? Yes it would ..

What is a massive failure is the pretence that Chinese engines match western engines when compared with the criteria of procurement costs, fuel consumption rates, thrust, service life, maintenance and MTBO intervals for new Chinese engines

Would PAF buy a substandard product because it had no choice or other options ?? Yes it would ..

Wow, if pakistan cant get F 16, why not try to get British Typhoon, French Rafale, Swedish Gripen or Russian SU 35 ? No one is going to stop you from doing so. Why try to get the substandard fighter J10CE and other weapons from China all the time ?

 

[Beast]

How do you know they didn't?

China could have sold it on the pretense that you purchase it with the Chinese engines.

There is too less available information to be certain

This comment only makes u look stupid. Do u know why? There are physical and mechanical difference of Chinese and Russian aero engine for J-10.

Pls don't insult the intelligent of PAF by making PAF like fool who can't differential what is what engine....

No, china wont stop pakistan getting the Russian engines if it desires instead, dont be that paranoid saying that china forces pakistan to take its lesser engines for J 10 CE, back up your speculation or claim with evidence that china does so, otherwise its just your own speculation. If russian engines AL 31-FN are indeed better for J 10C, China wont replace the fighter planes with Chinese domestically made engines on a massive scale, it would be just foolish to do that for the Chinese air force.

Precisely, these caveman who still lives in the 90s think China is some low tech countries who still mainly export cotton and garment for living.

China already landed rover on Mars something Russian and European still struggle to achieve such feat. What is there to stop China from conquer all technologies in next 10 years?

 

[TheSolution]

This comment only makes u look stupid. Do u know why? There are physical and mechanical difference of Chinese and Russian aero engine for J-10.

Nice strawman

The J-10 can be fitted with Russian engines and Chinese engines both, earlier production models had Russian engines until recently switching usage to the WS-10B.

There is nothing stopping it from using the Russian engine if wanted.

So back to my main point, how do you know China didn't include the Chinese engine as part of prerequisite of allowing the sale of the J-10?

You don't. Your only purpose on this forum is to prove "China advanced" in every China related thread

There is no evidence supporting that Chinese engines are as good as western counterparts.

The only thing we can confidently assume is that the reliability of the Chinese engine is enough to use it across multiple platforms and units.

 

[IblinI]

The "Made in China" saga will continue for decade until H20 shown up, Nuclear aircraft carrier hit the water or PLA proves it otherwise, so just chill and enjoyed the weekend.

 

[Beast]

Everything in this discussion was speculative, no one provided any evidence... because there is none. So I provided a speculative possibility that counters his narrative.

No available official information on the engines.

We simply don't know for sure about it's true performance in comparison to western engines.

J-10CE using WS-10 engine is hard fact. PAF could go for more JF-17 instead of introduced another variant of fighter into their fleet to complicate their logistic is also hard fact.

If J-10CE didn't introduced any leap of capabilities for PAF. They wouldn't bother the hassle to go thru such length to get J-10CE.

There are something which requires a bit of common sense to know the answer. Do u need to disassemble every part of an aero engine to know the hard facts or so called evidence?

Nice strawman

The J-10 can be fitted with Russian engines and Chinese engines both, earlier production models had Russian engines until recently switching usage to the WS-10B.

There is nothing stopping it from using the Russian engine if wanted.

So back to my main point, how do you know China didn't include the Chinese engine as part of prerequisite of allowing the sale of the J-10?

You don't. Your only purpose on this forum is to prove "China advanced" in every China related thread

There is no evidence supporting that Chinese engines are as good as western counterparts.

The only thing we can confidently assume is that the reliability of the Chinese engine is enough to use it across multiple platforms and units.

Does it matter? The point is if PAF not happy with Chinese engine, they can request for AL-31FN.

As demonstrated by JF-17, getting Russian is not an issue. But fact is, they go for WS-10 engine? Do u have evidence that PAF have problem obtain AL-31FN engine for J-10CE?

PA reject Z-10 earlier becos the engine couldn't meet their standard. I am sure you do know the PA is not somebody who just accept anything for sake of it. They have their requirement.

 

[TheSolution]

J-10CE using WS-10 engine is hard fact. PAF could go for more JF-17 instead of introduced another variant of fighter into their fleet to complicate their logistic is also hard fact.

If J-10CE didn't introduced any leap of capabilities for PAF. They wouldn't bother the hassle to go thru such length to get J-10CE.

There are something which requires a bit of common sense to know the answer. Do u need to disassemble every part of an aero engine to know the hard facts or so called evidence?

More strawmans and sidetracking lmao, you really are a Chinese bot

No one denies that the J-10C/E uses the WS-10B engine. We all know it does. It's literally the reason we are having this discussion.

No one is discussing the leap or the greater capabilities the J-10 provides to the PAF. We are talking about Chinese engine quality in relation to western counterparts.

Does the CCP training program include strawman and sidetracking once logical responses are not possible?

Let me repeat:

You have no evidence to prove that Chinese engines are at the same level as western counterparts. The only thing we can confidently assume is that they are reliable and sufficient enough to be used across multiple platforms in large numbers across the PLAAF.

Knowing Pakistan's desperate position to upgrade it's capabilities but also having restrictions in accessing western aircraft and also funding due to a declining economy, it's entirely possible that J-10 was only offered with Chinese engines without the possibility of Russian alternatives, so they went with it.

 

[TheSolution]

Does it matter? The point is if PAF not happy with Chinese engine, they can request for AL-31FN.

As demonstrated by JF-17, getting Russian is not an issue. But fact is, they go for WS-10 engine? Do u have evidence that PAF have problem obtain AL-31FN engine for J-10CE?

#1 is speculative, no proof, China could have linked the sale of the J-10C to only Chinese engines.

The JF-17 at the time had no Chinese alternative, hence Russian was the only option, so not the same today with WS-10B around.

As for the third, China has not much leverage with helicopters as Turkey is in the picture offering an alternative and PA could simply wait it out. Unlike fighter aircraft which Pakistan was essentially only left with Chinese options due to others being off the table, due to restricted access and/or funding issues.

 

[PakFactor]

You've already made up your mind, then no one can help you

F-35s Struggle To Fly! Frustrated South Korea Says Its US-Origin Stealth Fighters Marred By Defects

South Korea's lawmakers stated that the nation's F-35 A stealth fighter jets were labeled as operationally unready 234 times over 18 month

eurasiantimes.com

He asked for simple proof through data to support your claim, not a link to some F-35 crashing. But, unfortunately, that link doesn't answer his proposed question.

 

[beijingwalker]

No. Stop bull shitting.
He has asked you some pertinent questions. Either answer them or stay quiet.
Pakistan and the Chinese are brothers. No one will be more happy when China progresses than the Pakistani. However, the engines China has produced, even the russian ones are far behind the West in reliability, MTBO, and TWR. If you want to prove him wrong bring out figures for above to support your point. We are not your enemies but brothers. However just because we are your brothers does not mean we will accept anything you try to shove down our throats.
A

You should stop bull shitting and try to read what we were actually talking about first? I never said the Chinese engines are the best of the world, what we were argue about is whether Chinese engines are "reliable", what I was saying is that if Chinese engines are not reliable, how stupid China must be to fit all very costly all type of planes with various home made engines, loss of any planes is very pricy and no countries in the world will install unreliable engines to all their fleet, this is common sense which he stubbornly fail to see.

He asked for simple proof data to support your claim, not a link to some F-35 crashing. Unfortunately, that link doesn't answer the question that he proposed what you are doing by bringing a butter knife to a gunfight.

If he tries to prove that Chinese engines are not reliable, he should provide the data to back it up, not me.