China, America, brother of another mother

[Genesis]

Edit: Damn it wrong title, this is for another time, this one is

China, America, brother of another mother

Let me make a few declarations, this isn't to say democracy is bad or good, but simply a few view points I have on the actual effects relative to history.

This isn't an attack on anything just my personal view points. If I do mention a nation it is from what I know so mistakes could and probably will exist so you can correct me if you want.

Lastly this isn't a defence on China, but more of my observation.

Many questions have been raised on how China was able to rise so fast and so spectacularly when we are authoritarian, communist? Could China sustain it?

The answer? first the simple one, yes China can and will sustain it, I will give my arguments as I go on.

Now the hard question, how could we do it when we are the opposite of everything the West represent. But here lies the blind spot, the bias, we are not different, we are more similar that the West likes to admit.

But how? The West values freedom, democracy, while China is oppression and authoritarian, we are not similar, but upon closer examination, the West isn't 100% free and democratic, while China isn't 100% oppression and authoritarian.

*below are my arguments, I will say none of them mean America is worse, or China is very close, but the difference isn't as big as most like to make it out to be.

Americans have more freedom and choices, but China isn't still in the cultural revolution or dirt poor. Americans allow freedom of movement, China doesn't, officially with Hukou, but in reality hundreds of millions wasn't forced into the city. While social services suffer, it is more of a symptom of a developing nation rather than straight up oppression.

US can vote out politicians, officially and in practice China doesn't allow votes, but in reality, internet and lack of accomplishment has brought down more politicians than the American voter.

US can has freedom of speech of assembly, China allows none of these things. In reality, there's video of during Kerry's Q&A, someone was taxed and arrested for asking questions that's offensive and baseless, on the other hand, a student was screaming during a Q&A with the minister of education, and nothing happened. Some might say secret police or what not, you can believe what you like. Again this point China definitely needs much work, but it isn't as much as some thinks, one wrong phrase and it's off to jail.

US arrests protestors, some are violent, some are not, China also does this sometimes, but a lot of recent protests went off with no arrests, like protest against land development, pollution, injustice, and a few others. I feel I must say again, not saying it is the same, but not as far away as you might think.

There's tons more the would show the US still being better, but the difference isn't 100 to 0, more like 65-35. If we were to compare developing America to developing China, it would be a lot closer.

"Ask not, what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard."

Concentration of national strength, all hands on deck to better the soviets and become the last man standing, all distractions are just that, distractions. Matches the mentality of China today, full speed ahead, wealth, power, respect.

China has developed with a sense of need, a sense of urgency, and a sense of inevitability. China today like America of yesteryears, fears UK intervention and later Soviet domination, China today develops as we looks at America in the distance and leaving others in our wake, as the Americans did with the British empire and looking over the shoulders with the Soviets, China develops today, with the same sense of destiny, of confidence that the US had over British empire, the belief of American superiority.

So to look at China today and think we can't sustain it, or confused over how we could do it, is really a denial of a day gone by and a bias over anything foreign. You are not the first, and you won't be the last.

 

[cirr]

The 2nd pic is way out of date。

Believe it was taken 3-5 years ago，

The skyline now looks markedly different。

 

[seven7seven]

China is an overt dictatorship, whereas democracy is a covert dictatorship. Democracy, whether it's left, right or liberal, are all now controlled by big business interests (ie corporate facism) and only pay lip service to public sentiment. Give people the illusion they have a say and they believe they really have the power to influence their Government, but as we all know, democratic Governments do whatever they want, as a whole, but give enough in certain areas, like social welfare, to keep the ignorant masses contented enough, until the next general election comes along.

Both democracy and communism, in their purest ideals, and without the corrupt influence of power hungry megalomaniacs, would both serve the people well. But idealism and reality are like water and oil and they rarely mix well. What we actually have in practice in China is a communist Government that gives the people what they need as opposed to most democracies, that try to give people what they want, often to the detriment of national development. Democracies pander to popular opinion, on issues that matter most to the average person, like education, social welfare, etc., but they do as they please elsewhere, like bailing out big banks (their true masters) and waging wars for profit.

For all the criticism the Chinese Government gets, their current system is exactly the decisive leadership a huge and populous developing nation, like China, needs at the moment. Personal freedoms and social safety nets can come later, when China has become fully developed. I believe most Chinese understand this and are content as long as they are seeing continued progress. If only a certain other populous nation had such clarity in its national direction, they would be seeing far more tangible improvements in their country.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

China is an overt dictatorship, whereas democracy is a covert dictatorship. Democracy, whether it's left, right or liberal, are all now controlled by big business interests (ie corporate facism) and only pay lip service to public sentiment. Give people the illusion they have a say and they believe they really have the power to influence their Government, but as we all know, democratic Governments do whatever they want, as a whole, but give enough in certain areas, like social welfare, to keep the ignorant masses contented enough, until the next general election comes along.

Both democracy and communism, in their purest ideals, and without the corrupt influence of power hungry megalomaniacs, would both serve the people well. But idealism and reality are like water and oil and they rarely mix well. What we actually have in practice in China is a communist Government that gives the people what they need as opposed to most democracies, that try to give people what they want, often to the detriment of national development. Democracies pander to popular opinion, on issues that matter most to the average person, like education, social welfare, etc., but they do as they please elsewhere, like bailing out big banks (their true masters) and waging wars for profit.

For all the criticism the Chinese Government gets, their current system is exactly the decisive leadership a huge and populous developing nation, like China, needs at the moment. Personal freedoms and social safety nets can come later, when China has become fully developed. I believe most Chinese understand this and are content as long as they are seeing continued progress. If only a certain other populous nation had such clarity in its national direction, they would be seeing far more tangible improvements in their country.

Very well said!

As egoistic as it sounds, ever since the iron curtain fell our democratic system with all its civil rights and social achievements have been eroding and the pace is speeding up sinc the fiancial crisis. Without a competing system such as the Soviet bloc, our ruling class is showing its true and ugly face.

China is right now in a similar situation as Western Europe during the Cold War. They are being constantly compared with a wealthier system and therefore needs to deliver. The lithmut test will be when China has become developed and richer than us and how the ruling class will develop the Chinese system from then on.

 

[Solomon2]

ever since the iron curtain fell our democratic system with all its civil rights and social achievements have been eroding and the pace is speeding up sinc the fiancial crisis.

In Germany? What, you consider the East German regime was as "democratic" as its name?

 

[Götterdämmerung]

In Germany? What, you consider the East German regime was as "democratic" as its name?

What makes you think that I was talking about former East Germany?

 

[Genesis]

I'm not condemning America system, but hilarious at the guy's reactions. lol try not to laugh.

 

[Solomon2]

Democracy, whether it's left, right or liberal, are all now controlled by big business interests (ie corporate facism) and only pay lip service to public sentiment. Give people the illusion they have a say and they believe they really have the power to influence their Government -

I don't think I experienced an illusion when I testified at zoning boards, or successfully advocated a change in local government policy!

For policymakers, following the recommendations of businessmen is often the right thing to do. Higher profits lead to higher tax collections, and businessmen are usually more sensitive to the infrastructure and security changes that need to be made for many people to benefit. But business doesn't always get its way; that's why in America we have consumer protections, pollution controls, licensing, anti-trust laws, etc.

Thus a bunch of American exports to China are things that the U.S. regulates very well, but China does not. For example, America exports ice cream to China. LOTS OF IT!!! Apparently the only reason Chinese consumers prefer U.S. dairy to their own is because they can't trust their Chinese producers not to dilute their wares with water, or melamine, or lord knows what else, whereas U.S. dairy is regulated from the farmer to the factory to the table.

If anything, China is too friendly to big businesses.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

I don't think I experienced an illusion when I testified at zoning boards, or successfully advocated a change in local government policy!

For policymakers, following the recommendations of businessmen is often the right thing to do. Higher taxes, higher profits, and businessmen are usually more sensitive to the infrastructure and security changes that need to be made for many people to benefit. But business doesn't always get its way; that's why in America we have consumer protections, pollution controls, licensing, anti-trust laws, etc.

Thus a bunch of American exports to China are things that the U.S. regulates very well, but China does not. For example, America exports ice cream to China. LOTS OF IT!!! Apparently the only reason Chinese consumers prefer U.S. dairy to their own is because they can't trust their Chinese producers not to dilute their wares with water, or melamine, or lord knows what else, whereas U.S. dairy is regulated from the farmer to the factory to the table.

If anything, China is too friendly to big businesses.

I didn't write this. Please correct the person you quoted!

I'm not condemning America system, but hilarious at the guy's reactions. lol try not to laugh.

What is shocking is the absolute inaction of the other people in the audience. That guy didn't do anything aggressive or threatening and got treated like a criminal.

 

[Solomon2]

I didn't write this. Please correct the person you quoted!

Sorry, this is the second time such a thing has happened. Don't know why.

 

[Genesis]

I don't think I experienced an illusion when I testified at zoning boards, or successfully advocated a change in local government policy!

For policymakers, following the recommendations of businessmen is often the right thing to do. Higher taxes, higher profits, and businessmen are usually more sensitive to the infrastructure and security changes that need to be made for many people to benefit. But business doesn't always get its way; that's why in America we have consumer protections, pollution controls, licensing, anti-trust laws, etc.

Thus a bunch of American exports to China are things that the U.S. regulates very well, but China does not. For example, America exports ice cream to China. LOTS OF IT!!! Apparently the only reason Chinese consumers prefer U.S. dairy to their own is because they can't trust their Chinese producers not to dilute their wares with water, or melamine, or lord knows what else, whereas U.S. dairy is regulated from the farmer to the factory to the table.

If anything, China is too friendly to big businesses.

US is the reigning super power, Europe has prestige, China likes Western stuff because of it. But these things fade, Chinese goods and philosophy was once the envy of French court in the palace of versaille.

As to too friendly to big business, don't mistake Chinese tolerance for acceptance. The top political brass looks at Western businessmen as nothing but trash that they will use once and discard.

The Chinese hierarchy always places businessmen in the bottom. Today it is no longer the case, but the top political elite is still that. American top brass is the same way, but more subtle about it, because they still need election money and other funding, for frankly very little return.

China has shown Philip, Starbucks, Apple and many more exactly what they are worth. There's a reason Cook apologized and now China enjoys the same and more services as well as same date release of phones as the developed world.

 

[Solomon2]

US is the reigning super power, Europe has prestige, China likes Western stuff because of it. But these things fade, Chinese goods and philosophy was once the envy of French court in the palace of versaille.

I'm eagerly awaiting the day Chinese philosophy makes its mark once more.

As to too friendly to big business, don't mistake Chinese tolerance for acceptance. The top political brass looks at Western businessmen as nothing but trash that they will use once and discard.

I was talking about Chinese businessmen, not Western ones.

The Chinese hierarchy always places businessmen in the bottom. Today it is no longer the case, but the top political elite is still that.

This is confusing.

American top brass is the same way, but more subtle about it, because they still need election money and other funding, for frankly very little return.

Sometimes not all the money in the world is enough to convince the electorate to vote for you.

China has shown Philip, Starbucks, Apple and many more exactly what they are worth. There's a reason Cook apologized and now China enjoys the same and more services as well as same date release of phones as the developed world.[/quote]We Americans have had some of the same service problems with Apple. But I think the main problem last year is that when the 5s rolled out Apple didn't produce enough of the right color to suit Chinese consumers. Apple didn't favor the U.S. over China; for many, many, months the gold-color iPhones were unavailable here, while you could get a black one the same day!

 

[seven7seven]

I don't think I experienced an illusion when I testified at zoning boards, or successfully advocated a change in local government policy!

For policymakers, following the recommendations of businessmen is often the right thing to do. Higher profits lead to higher tax collections, and businessmen are usually more sensitive to the infrastructure and security changes that need to be made for many people to benefit. But business doesn't always get its way; that's why in America we have consumer protections, pollution controls, licensing, anti-trust laws, etc.

Thus a bunch of American exports to China are things that the U.S. regulates very well, but China does not. For example, America exports ice cream to China. LOTS OF IT!!! Apparently the only reason Chinese consumers prefer U.S. dairy to their own is because they can't trust their Chinese producers not to dilute their wares with water, or melamine, or lord knows what else, whereas U.S. dairy is regulated from the farmer to the factory to the table.

If anything, China is too friendly to big businesses.

I'm not saying one system is better than the other. I even said, democratic governments pander to popular opinion on certain issues, likely public welfare and social security, but even China, at the regional level, also have local elections to deal with day-to-day domestic issues and the Chinese Government respond to public outrage on health and safety issues. It's just a different system of checks and balances, and, obviously, China still has a way to go, but it won't necessarily follow the Western system. What I was saying is that on the really crucial matters like taxation, interest rates, who we trade with, who we go to war with, etc., the average person, be they a citizen in China, or an American, have no actual say on these matters. The idea of true democratic accountability to the people is just a clever facade, especially, when you have a Federal Reserve, owned by private bankers, that does not allow itself to be audited, and open itself to public scrutiny. Like the OP of this thread is trying to get across, the actual difference between China's system and the Western democratic one is not that different than some would have you believe. The issue of what's better is moot as it's a horses for courses situation.

 

[jaibi]

I'll give a simple answer: systems that work are those that are evolved, not imposed. Europe never woke up to democracy, it was an active process of social forces culminating to a system that gave relative stability. Same elsewhere. Chinese faced problems differently and evolved a different system.

The myth that democracy is the BEST system is propogated because of today's Westernistic hegemony. Historically, there is no evidence: Firstly, democracy is not a historic concept: Athenian was different from British. Secondly, people have preferred other systems, Roman Empire was more prosperous than the Republic.

It's not the system but the way it's evolved and implemented that matters.

@Genesis PS title fixed.

 

[Genesis]

I'm eagerly awaiting the day Chinese philosophy makes its mark once more.

I was talking about Chinese businessmen, not Western ones.

This is confusing.

Sometimes not all the money in the world is enough to convince the electorate to vote for you.

China has shown Philip, Starbucks, Apple and many more exactly what they are worth. There's a reason Cook apologized and now China enjoys the same and more services as well as same date release of phones as the developed world.

We Americans have had some of the same service problems with Apple. But I think the main problem last year is that when the 5s rolled out Apple didn't produce enough of the right color to suit Chinese consumers. Apple didn't favor the U.S. over China; for many, many, months the gold-color iPhones were unavailable here, while you could get a black one the same day![/quote]

We have, the Chinese model is a success story, and it's being implemented across the developing world. Of course they suck at it, just like if non American use American system it will also not work.



Chinese businessmen same deal, they will last longer based on the fact they are Chinese, but they are expandable just the same. However the same can be said of politicians. So all's fair in cash and war.



What I meant was, during the dynasties, Chinese politicians didn't meet business people face to face, that was a huge affront to politicians to be seen or speak to a mere business person. Today politicians work with businesses, but have you seen game of thrones? The black dude and the main character is in the sort of relationship, but it's a little more apparent in China than in US.

A politician don't want to be poor, but he could be, having no money wouldn't mean anything to his future, there are no elections, bribes and such help, but you still need accomplishments and if you stand out in a public war, they can't discount you anyways. In this sense, the relationship is more one sided.

Money is key, but not everything, but no money definitely means no, in the US.



Apple was so discriminating against us. Repair policies, and release dates and such. But two weeks of bombardment, Apple now treats China numero uno. They also only rank 6th in China with no signs of over taking and signs of being over taken.

I'll give a simple answer: systems that work are those that are evolved, not imposed. Europe never woke up to democracy, it was an active process of social forces culminating to a system that gave relative stability. Same elsewhere. Chinese faced problems differently and evolved a different system.

The myth that democracy is the BEST system is propogated because of today's Westernistic hegemony. Historically, there is no evidence: Firstly, democracy is not a historic concept: Athenian was different from British. Secondly, people have preferred other systems, Roman Empire was more prosperous than the Republic.

It's not the system but the way it's evolved and implemented that matters.

@Genesis PS title fixed.

Quote for truth, couldn't have said it better myself.

Too much emphasis on system, too little on results.