Ceding more space to army may harm democracy: opposition

[VCheng]

Nice twisting... However it goes like this, COAS made the plan showed it to the PM he OK'D it... And when army went into action the said PM chikned out.

He okayed what exactly? What was presented and what was actually carried out? Did anyone in the room present, discuss or even contemplate the inevitable consequences?

 

[Lavrentiy]

The fanboys would even demand Nawaz Shareef to fly CAP missions himself along the Western Border to shoot down the drones.

 

[I M Sikander]

His mindset is Punjab only, although in fairness NS isnt the feaudal as much as a self serving businessman. He is however, endowed with a hint of sincerity to Pakistan that Asif Zardari lacked.
The feudal mindset is the rest of the N-league; the pitiful MPA's and MNA's that the sharif's look to keep their power consolidated. Most of N-league's political force is composed of self serving scum that is a mixture of bigotry and criminal mindset.

The ordinary Pakistani don't agree to your philosophy and vote pmln again and again where as other parties are reducing with every passing day.

Learn to respect the will of the people.

The fanboys would even demand Nawaz Shareef to fly CAP missions himself along the Western Border to shoot down the drones.

The thank u RS brigade expect this from NS , whereas when it comes to RS and army, their wishes are nothing more then imposing martial law.

Whereas defending the sovereignty of Pakistan from drone strikes and it's enemies has never been on Priority list of thank you RS brigade.

As far as I remember, NS adopted a total bend over backward policy towards india

Come on don't be so immature , when was the last time any civilian leader has a any say or control in India Pak relations. Pak india relations, Afghans issue and , Kashmir policy and Pak US relations have never been the domain of any bloody civilian leader.

. NS went to afghanistan, their establishment derailed serious efforts for peace talks by leaking Mullah umar death news. Then there was Iran, that to he went with General raheel sharif

4 countries Afghan Peace talks has always been the isi and military establishment initiative. Foreign office mhas no clue or authority about the so called Afghan Peace dialogues.

The generals in GhQ and NATIONAL SECURITY advisor are doing what their bosses are asking them from GHQ.

1971 your political leadership screwed it up, it was bhutto that was responsible for that.

Oh I see , so it was Bhutto. By the way who surrendered before Indian army was it Bhutto or men in uniform.

Siachin : we still hold priority positions till this day

You and your delusions world. Siachin was always a Pakistani territory until india captured 2/3 of it in 1984 and till to date we haven't been able to retrieve back a single inch from Indians. This shows our capability.

Kargil : a master plan again screwed up by politicians....

Master plan. My goodness. Kargil was most idiotic plan ever made by men in uniform.mushi started this whole bull shit without even taking in to confidence the navy, air force and civilian gov. And when Indian started retaliations out army even refused to take back the bodies of out Javan's who sacrificed their lives. And Indian take back the kargil land whereas we have failed to reciprocate any such thing in siachin.

 

[Lavrentiy]

As India's diplomatic and economic clout is increasing, the jingoists are in for some depressive disorder.

Though people like me who are not overly patriotic and jingoist are concerned by this but we see no security problems due to the nuclear deterrent.

However, this would be an altogether different ball game for the Army fanboys who would suffer from temper tantrums and will hold responsible civilians and democracy.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Uncle jee Modi's on the global radar ever since he has been elected and Indians are not psychopaths like you and your band of research and development garbage here. Now rather than getting an ars burn on their achievements , get out of 6th grade Pakistan history stuff and try using your brains for a split second. Baqi Randi rona is your and your band's hallmark and no one gives a rat's ars to that and changes nothing
Next time I hope you and your band will ask COAS to shoot down a US drone upon invading Pakistan.

Just like i thought, spoken like a typical Patawri Jahil who does not even know what Command Structure is.

Has the PM instructed the PAF Chief to shoot down any intruding drone? Their is a Command Structure in the Armed Forces, and the Armed Forces cannot engage any foreign element within its borders unless there are clear Rules of Engagement handed by the Civilian Leadership. The PM has to issue a Direct Order that any intruding Drone should be shot down. The entire onus for the Drone Attack is on our Corrupt Prime Minister Mian Muhammad Nawaz Sharif.

Second, if let's say this was the failure of the Army Chief, how come he hasn't been sacked of his position yet by the PM?

If you did not understand this, and was to complicated of a subject for you, i will try to translate this for you in Urdu.

Oh and also i could not help but notice, you totally ignored my question. I asked for you to name me a single imitative taken by the Federal Government in regards to dealing with terrorism or international diplomacy? Don't bother answering because there are none hahah chawal.

 

[VCheng]

Just like i thought, spoken like a typical Patawri Jahil who does not even know what Command Structure is.

So is this Command Structure in place all the time, or only when it suits the military?

 

[SBD-3]

So is this Command Structure in place all the time, or only when it suits the military?

Nailed it!

 

[Zaneesh852]

Looking at the stupidity of the think tank I wonder, our education system is so radicalized and so much that our youth has turned into the ideological breed of Zaid Hamid. What's more ironic is that these fools are often holding Australian,Biritsh, American and Canadian passports thus having near zero stake in Pakistan. Working as an unpaid tout to Establishment , they think that by lying to themselves, they are doing this nation a service.

 

[notorious_eagle]

So is this Command Structure in place all the time, or only when it suits the military?

Not at All

The Prime Minister is more than welcome to issue a directive, and let the Army fulfill it. If the Army does not fulfill those orders, your argument would be valid but so far that hasn't happened.

Looking at the stupidity of the think tank I wonder, our education system is so radicalized and so much that our youth has turned into the ideological breed of Zaid Hamid. What's more ironic is that these fools are often holding Australian,Biritsh, American and Canadian passports thus having near zero stake in Pakistan. Working as an unpaid tout to Establishment , they think that by lying to themselves, they are doing this nation a service.

Indeed. That's why you stated that Corruption is necessary for Development of a country. It does not get any more stupider than that. In my opinion, supporting corruption and corrupt leaders is worse than killing your own mother. But than again, there are some here who support corruption because their own families are involved in them.

Another thing, its funny you say that about Foreign Passport Holders but your own leaders have properties and all their wealth abroad. They have no money, nothing invested in Pakistan but prefer to take their money abroad. In fact, they even get treated abroad because they don't like those dirty tacky Pakistani Hospitals because that's where the Masses go. Sorry friend, but you're by far the Biggest Chawal of this forum.

 

[VCheng]

Not at All

The Prime Minister is more than welcome to issue a directive, and let the Army fulfill it. If the Army does not fulfill those orders, your argument would be valid but so far that hasn't happened.

So the Command Structure works both ways, the example that you quote being one way. The Army must remain sub-ordinate at all times, that is the other way, but somehow that seems to go out the window (or over the gate, actually) whenever the Army decides it. Such one-way pick-and-choose "Command Structures" simply do not work. As we can see.

 

[notorious_eagle]

So the Command Structure works both ways, the example that you quote being one way. The Army must remain sub-ordinate at all times, that is the other way, but somehow that seems to go out the window (or over the gate, actually) whenever the Army decides it. Such one-way pick-and-choose "Command Structures" simply do not work. As we can see.

Not really, if it goes out of the window than that means the Civilian Government allows it. I haven't seen the Civilian Government put its foot down on any issue, and force the Army to stand down. Has the Civilian Government issued a directive to the Army to shoot down these Drones? No, so how can you claim the Army will throw these Directives out of the window. You can't base your argument on the Premise on the basis of your own personal assumption. You can't really pick and choose Sir, if you stand for your principles than you shouldn't be afraid to take a stand for them.

But unfortunately the only Principle our current Federal Government stands for is engaging in corruption and kick backs. They are more than happy to let the Army take the lead on these issues because quite simply they lack the ambition and the intellect to solve these problems. When your Prime Minister is caught engaging in corruption worth billions of dollars, he looses the moral credibility to lead in any initiative.

 

[VCheng]

Not really, if it goes out of the window than that means the Civilian Government allows it. I haven't seen the Civilian Government put its foot down on any issue, and force the Army to stand down. Has the Civilian Government issued a directive to the Army to shoot down these Drones? No, so how can you claim the Army will throw these Directives out of the window. You can't base your argument on the Premise on the basis of your own personal assumption. You can't really pick and choose Sir, if you stand for your principles than you shouldn't be afraid to take a stand for them.

But unfortunately the only Principle our current Federal Government stands for is engaging in corruption and kick backs. They are more than happy to let the Army take the lead on these issues because quite simply they lack the ambition and the intellect to solve these problems. When your Prime Minister is caught engaging in corruption worth billions of dollars, he looses the moral credibility to lead in any initiative.

So what you are arguing is that the civilian government is the authority as long as it does what the Army tells it to do. Otherwise, the Army stops hiding behind the facade it keeps in place as long as convenient. Further, if the Army takes over, it is because the civilians are corrupt, incompetent and complicit, so it must be their fault.

I personally have no problem with such disingenuous views, except that this duplicitous system simply does not work, as we can see from the situation Pakistan finds itself in, internally, externally and most importantly economically. And things are about to get worse.

 

[notorious_eagle]

So what you are arguing is that the civilian government is the authority as long as it does what the Army tells it to do.

I am not saying anything, you're just assuming it. Civilian Government is welcome to take any initiative and give the instructions to the Army to execute them. That's another story that they lack the intellect to take any initiative, this is why they are happy to the Army take the initiative. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Otherwise, the Army stops hiding behind the facade it keeps in place as long as convenient.

Your words, its not a fact. The Army does not need to do anything, in fact the Army and the SC have been urging the Federal Government to start delivering basic governance to the people. If the Federal Government fails to deliver anything and engages in massive corruption, someone has to step in to fill the void and usually its the Army. The Federal Government is so incompetent, that they can't even implement National Action Plan.

Further, if the Army takes over, it is because the civilians are corrupt, incompetent and complicit, so it must be their fault.

If our history is something to go by with, it's usually true although i believe Iskandar Mirza was at fault. But look at our current Government right now, failing to deliver anything and engaging in massive corruption. Once again, the Army has stepped in to fill that void because Federal Government lacks the capacity.

I personally have no problem with such disingenuous views, except that this duplicitous system simply does not work, as we can see from the situation Pakistan finds itself in, internally, externally and most importantly economically. And things are about to get worse.

You can have whatever opinion that you want, but if the Civilian Government fails to deliver on anything and leaves such a huge void, someone will step up and fill that void. Respect is earned, not given.

 

[VCheng]

I am not saying anything, you're just assuming it. Civilian Government is welcome to take any initiative and give the instructions to the Army to execute them. That's another story that they lack the intellect to take any initiative, this is why they are happy to the Army take the initiative. You can't have your cake and eat it too.



Your words, its not a fact. The Army does not need to do anything, in fact the Army and the SC have been urging the Federal Government to start delivering basic governance to the people. If the Federal Government fails to deliver anything and engages in massive corruption, someone has to step in to fill the void and usually its the Army. The Federal Government is so incompetent, that they can't even implement National Action Plan.



If our history is something to go by with, it's usually true although i believe Iskandar Mirza was at fault. But look at our current Government right now, failing to deliver anything and engaging in massive corruption. Once again, the Army has stepped in to fill that void because Federal Government lacks the capacity.



You can have whatever opinion that you want, but if the Civilian Government fails to deliver on anything and leaves such a huge void, someone will step up and fill that void. Respect is earned, not given.

My views are in good company, and supported by the reality of Pakistan today:

http://www.dawn.com/news/1262101/military-march

".... the army learnt that those who hold power are held responsible for what happens.

Having taken that lesson on board, the post-Musharraf military adopted a new, subtler tactic. It decided to exercise power in all crucial areas while simultaneously allowing civilian rulers to hold office. Traditionally, the policy areas reserved for the army included the nuclear weapons programme and relations with the key foreign powers: India, Afghanistan and the United States. In the last few years, the list has expanded considerably. The establishment of apex committees, military courts and the military’s use of coercion to force the media onto the back foot means there is scarcely an area of public policy that the army is not seeking to influence or control.

You might think that it is an approach that has few downsides for the military. While they make the decisions, the civilians absorb the unpopularity that comes with the failure to deliver.

But there is a problem. The taste for power is insatiable."

 

[notorious_eagle]

My views are in good company, and supported by the reality of Pakistan today:

http://www.dawn.com/news/1262101/military-march

No they are not, they are not even remotely close to what the reality is, and gladly majority of Pakistani's agree with me. The only views you hold are excuses for the incompetence and corruption of the Civilian Government. You might have a lot of tolerance for corruption, but i certainly don't. Your argument pretty much lost its credence when you sourced Owen Jones as an authority, a Britisher sitting all the way in his comfy Office in London forgetting the Ground Realities of Pakistan. Anyways, i have said more than i should have and clearly our views don't align and maybe never will. Wish you a Good Day