Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology

[cerberus]

Its not, given what happened in case of Brahmos.

Don't worry Americans won't sell it Chinese you know why?? secondly no country have pockets to buy it except india if there is any name it

 

[IND151]

The US-India defence relationship needs an engine to drive it, say leaders on both sides. But there are different perceptions on what that engine might be.

Americans believe the engine should be the "Defence Trade and Technology Initiative" (DTTI), a high-level committee of officials from both sides that moots projects for working together, and removes bureaucratic roadblocks. In January, when President Barack Obama met Prime Minister Narendra Modi in New Delhi, they "emphasised the ongoing importance of the (DTTI) in developing new areas of technology cooperation", according to a joint statement issued at that time.

Indian officials are focused on another engine --- the General Electric Aviation (GE) F-414 jet engine that will power a more powerful version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Tejas Mark II. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) wants GE to help it up-rate the F-414 engine to power India's futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which is still on the drawing board.

So central is engine technology to India's high-technology expectations from the US, that it was specifically cited after the Obama-Modi talks. The joint statement said that, on January 22, the DTTI agreed to "form a working group to explore aircraft carrier technology sharing and design, and explore possible cooperation on development of jet engine technology."

Yet, the US technology control regime, which guards cutting-edge knowhow tightly, continues to treat jet engine technologies as sensitive and commercially valuable. Washington readily sold India the GE-404IN engine that powers the Tejas Mark I with 83 KiloNewtons (KN) of thrust. It also permitted the more advanced F-414 - which will provide the Tejas Mark II with 90 KN of thrust - to be built near Pune after GE won a contract for 99 engines in September 2010.

But India wants cutting-edge. Defence ministry sources say they want GE to partner the DRDO in upgrading the F-414 to deliver 110 KN of peak power to the AMCA, allowing its twin-engines to deliver 220 KN of peak power to the fighter.

GE is sees enormous commercial benefits in this co-development, which would capture the engine market for 200 Tejas and 200 AMCA. Since a fighter engine's life is about 1,500 hours and the aircraft itself lasts 5,000-6,000 hours, each fighter consumes 3.5 engines during its service life. GE is looking at supplying 700 engines for the Tejas and 1,400 for the AMCA over their service lives.

Yet, developing an advanced F-414 engine in India would require GE to part with valuable technologies, particularly in the high-melting-point alloys that make the combustion chamber. Engine designers say an output of 90 KN requires the combustion chamber to be built of materials that withstand temperatures of 1,800 degrees Kelvin. Achieving engine output of 110 KN would generate 2,000 degrees Kelvin in the combustion chamber. Washington remains reluctant to share these technologies, even after committing to jointly exploring cooperation.

"The DTTI should facilitate US permissions, especially with a working group in place for engine technology. But we are getting signals this may not happen," says a top DRDO scientist.

Indian officials see advantage in dealing with GE along, through government-to-government channels, a more flexible and faster mechanism. There is also benefit in having GE as a single partner for Tejas Mark I, Mark II and AMCA engines, which GE keenly wants too. Even so, Indian officials say that US government foot-dragging might leave no choice but an international tender that brings in European companies like Snecma and Eurojet.

At stake here is the Indian military and civil aero engine market, which internal DRDO estimations reckon to be worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over coming decades.

"How the Americans react on Wednesday will tell us how serious they are about technology partnership with India," says a top defence ministry bureaucrat.

"So far they have treated the DTTI as a channel to help American companies to bypass competitive procurement and multi-vendor tenders. But we will allow that only when there are clear technology benefits for India," he added.

Before his meetings in New Delhi on Wednesday, US Defense Secretary Ashton Carter will be stopping at Visakhapatnam on Tuesday, on his way in from Singapore, where he will visit the navy's Eastern Naval Command. With the second "joint working group" exploring US cooperation in building India's next aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, Carter will listen keenly to his briefings on India's operational doctrines.

Besides the two working groups, the DTTI has committed to US-India cooperation in developing and manufacturing four pieces of military equipment as "pathfinder projects". These include the Cheel micro-drone that infantry platoons can launch to view the battlefield; roll-on, roll-off kits for the C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft, which are changeable interiors that allow the C-130J to be quickly configured for different missions, e.g. para-dropping, cargo-carrying, medical evacuation, etc; a mobile electric hybrid power source for various utilisations; and protective clothing for soldiers operating in a nuclear, chemical or biologically contaminated battlefield.

Carter played a leading role in establishing the DTTI when then Defence Secretary Leon Panetta proposed it in June 2012. He co-chaired the DTTI along with former National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon. The DTTI is now cho-chaired by Frank Kendall, an Under Secretary of Defence; and India's defence secretary, G Mohan Kumar.

Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology | Business Standard News

Which means AMCA will have total thrust of 22,432.

In reality it will be somewhat less as S type Intakes lead to reduction in thrust.

@sancho @Capt.Popeye @XiNiX @Penguin @MilSpec

 

[Agent_47]

If US can approve this joint development, it will be obvious to provide full ToT for remaining GE414 order for LCA MK2.
We should not stop our own engine development efforts just because US give assurance, It will give chance history to repeat it self !

 

[Vyom]

They proposed EJ 2000 variant which would near 103 KN & Joint development.

The Joint Development part is deadly. we need engines NOW, which we can fir into our fighter. Developing an Engine takes huge money and time. ToT of a lesser engine and carrying out our own research is good.

 

[Manindra]

The Joint Development part is deadly. we need engines NOW, which we can fir into our fighter. Developing an Engine takes huge money and time. ToT of a lesser engine and carrying out our own research is good.

You need engine in 2017 & this news is 2010-11, Its variant not new engine
You still not get hands on GE F-414 IN

 

[Vyom]

You need engine in 2017 & this news is 2010-11, Its variant not new engine
You still not get hands on GE F-414 IN

A few questions :
1) Cite one example where a engine was developed of the massive modifications as enlisted by you in 5-6 years?

2) Given the thrust enhancement of about 30kN (30%) and the higher range of temperature of operation at the same time bettering fuel Efficiency or keeping it constant, a new metallurgy and Fuel Firing and Burning mechanism needs to be developed. Cite one example on how it can be achieved by 2017 ?

3) Given we go go For EJ 2000 right at this moment when will we be able to Fit one on a Tejas Mk 2 ?

Operational requirement and scientific research are two things don't mix up between the two.

 

[Manindra]

A few questions :
1) Cite one example where a engine was developed of the massive modifications as enlisted by you in 5-6 years?

M-88 whole new engine developed in 15 years & you are doubting in developing a variant with best engine developer & manufacturer Rolce Royce ?

2) Given the thrust enhancement of about 30kN (30%) and the higher range of temperature of operation at the same time bettering fuel Efficiency or keeping it constant, a new metallurgy and Fuel Firing and Burning mechanism needs to be developed. Cite one example on how it can be achieved by 2017 ?

From 2011 there are enough time develop it.

3) Given we go go For EJ 2000 right at this moment when will we be able to Fit one on a Tejas Mk 2 ?

Tejas MKII still on the paper so when you ready your prototype ?

Operational requirement and scientific research are two things don't mix up between the two.

Technical Knowledge & ranting are also different thing.

 

[#hydra#]

It has a thrust of 60KN, and 90kN with afterburner. GE F414 57.8 kN in normal operation, 97.1 kN with after burners.

Use the Miracle called Google and learn.

All fighters will use engine in non afterburner mode in most of the time,so I think ej200 will give better flight characteristics for LCA ,in my openion mainly in payload vs range scenario.Also they are ready to upgrade The same engine which will give 78 KN and 120 KN thrust in non & afterburner modes respectively( use the miracle called google ). Last but not least its comparatively sanction proof over GE engine.

 

[The Great One]

Should have gone for EJ-200. Less thrust and more cost maybe but al least free of much of the politicking.
Don't forget that a major cause in Tejas delay was American sanctions.

 

[Kinetic]

Not happening as long as Bjp is in power deal with it you

You are supporting a party who will take India to middle age only with dharna.

US by far is the most predictable partner, and in international relations there are no permanent partners. US will change its course as long as it servers its National Interest. We should work with them in scenarios where both of our National interests coincide. Other wise why would US or for that matter any other country, work with us.

About the critical parts, that is why we are asking for technology not the engines only.

US is by far most un predictable, still in 2015 they have sanction on so many Indian labs and restrictions on buying tools. This is not true with Russia, France or Israel. Us will change it course soon, when ever it needs.

 

[AugenBlick]

it's either share the tech with India gaining an ally or not sharing the tech and have China surpass us anyways via espionage and advancement in it's own domestic R&D.

long as the tech doesn't fall into enemies hands I don't see a problem.


the GE-414 is reaching a dead end with the Super Hornet.

You earn money too.... We pay for the IP and production.

 

[Manindra]

Should have gone for EJ-200. Less thrust and more cost maybe but al least free of much of the politicking.
Don't forget that a major cause in Tejas delay was American sanctions.

The variant they offered us for Tejas MK II was not less powerful compared to F-414 but slightly expensive but worth it.

 

[The Great One]

The variant they offered us for Tejas MK II was not less powerful compared to F-414 but slightly expensive but worth it.

Which variant did they offer us?

 

[Manindra]

Which variant did they offer us?

Nomeculare I forgot but that are not have same thrust as in Typhoon & don't forget it weights only 990 kg compared to F414 110 Kg & have 2D TVC.

 

[The Great One]

Nomeculare I forgot but that are not have same thrust as in Typhoon & don't forget it weights only 990 kg compared to F414 110 Kg & have 2D TVC.

EJ200 is rated at 90Kn+.
Exact specs may depend upon the user as it directly co-relates to MTBO and engine life.

I never heard of any 2D TVC being offered. It was not a part of RFP either.