Canadians Looking For New Service Handgun

[Zarvan]

***Refiled with Correct Spelling -- WAINWRIGHT, ALTA.: AUGUST 19, 2010 -- Master Cpl. Tatyana Danylyshyn, 25, fires a9mm Browning pistol during a training and selection camp for the Land Force Western Area's combat shooting team at CFB Wainwright in Wainwright, Alta. on August 19, 2010. (Ryan Jackson / Edmonton Journal).

Possibly one of the last of the Five Eyes countries to retain a Second World War era handgun, the Canadian Forces announced plans to begin the solicitation and testing process of finding a handgun to replace the currently issued 9x19mm Browning Hi-Powers. According to the National Post, current Hi Power numbers are hovering around 13,000 and are degrading by every year of usage, especially through being carried on deployments to Afghanistan. From the news article-

Last year army procurement officers briefed industry representatives about their quest for a new pistol. Industry officials were told that between 15,000 and 25,000 handguns are needed and the military estimated the project would cost around $50 million, according to documents recently obtained by the Ottawa Citizen.

That price-tag would include extra parts and related equipment.

Canadian ForcesThe Canadian military wants to replace its 1940s-era Browning handguns, shown in this 2015 photo being used by Canadian troops in the Middle East, but first will conduct a survey on whether there is still a need for pistols.
Canada’s general service pistol is currently the 9mm Browning Hi-Power, which came into service in the later part of the Second World War, according to the Canadian Army documents prepared for industry. The guns have been refurbished over the years.

A smaller number of SIG P225 pistols were acquired in 1991 and are in the hands of military police and Royal Canadian Navy boarding teams.

…

Sometime in 2019 or 2020 the requirements for a new gun will be defined and then by 2022 the military will seek approval from the federal government to proceed with a purchase of a new general service pistol or GSP.

“If the project timeline is not delayed, the delivery of the GSP could start in fiscal year 2022-2023 and full operational capability could be reached by 2026,” Lanouette pointed out.

The timeline for the operational requirement definition, solicitation, and testing goes into the 2020s, even including a national wide survey of the Canadian Forces as to what soldiers want to see in a future handgun. Some grumbles appear to have already come out about how long this process appears to be taking, as it looks like Canada will be suffering from the same bureaucratic nightmare that the U.S. Army’s MHS program proceeded through over several years. Judging from the equally agonizingly slow production history of Colt Canada, and the fact that Canada’s largest handgun manufacturer Para-Ordnance moved to the United States, the company awarded will most likely have to be outside of Canada.

Just from the outset, and the length of the competition, I suspect that Sig Sauer, Glock, and Beretta will be eyeing the solicitation to see what can be sent in. Usually Military handgun contracts stipulate a manual safety, but this trend was reversed with the British Army’s adoption of the Glock 17 to also replace Browning Hi-Powers then in service.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/02/14/canadians-looking-new-service-handgun/

 

[Nilgiri]

I would like to see Sig being selected. They feel the most ergonomic to me.

 

[jhungary]

I would like to see Sig being selected. They feel the most ergonomic to me.

It would be too expensive for Canada to go SIG P22x series or the US M17 (which is P320) The US is buying them in bulk for around $960 a pop (Based on the contract of 600,000 pistol at 580 millions USD.) Even we do not like the new purchase....

The last service sidearms cost the US Military about $350 a pop. Representing a nearly 300% increase, and I doubt CF will order anything like 600,000 the US did, so, you kind of expecting the SIG pistol will cost them above $1,000 each

CF would most likely looking at either HK or Glock for replacement, depending on what kind of price, Gen 4 Glock 17 is a good choice. Half the price of P229 and P320. HK tend to be a bit more expensive, but it worth the extra.

 

[Akasa]

Perhaps strike a deal for the (now-rejected) M9A3 pistol? Beretta has to sell those guns somewhere.

 

[SW187]

I love the browning 9mm

 

[jhungary]

Perhaps strike a deal for the (now-rejected) M9A3 pistol? Beretta has to sell those guns somewhere.

M9A3 is actually quite expensive as well. That is the main reason why M9A3 weren't selected as Upgrade. I will have to admit tho, M9A3 is a sexy pistol, which is one of the weapon i would buy when I go back to the US (Not in the next 4 years........you should know why), a new M9A3 will cost anywhere between $950-$1050 depend on accessories kits, which make it the grade about level with SIG Sauer

Unfornaturely, M9A3 is not allowed in Australia (because of the 17 rds mag.) otherwise I would have dump my original M9 and get my hand on one of these baby

 

[Nilgiri]

M9A3 is actually quite expensive as well. That is the main reason why M9A3 weren't selected as Upgrade. I will have to admit tho, M9A3 is a sexy pistol, which is one of the weapon i would buy when I go back to the US (Not in the next 4 years........you should know why), a new M9A3 will cost anywhere between $950-$1050 depend on accessories kits, which make it the grade about level with SIG Sauer

Unfornaturely, M9A3 is not allowed in Australia (because of the 17 rds mag.) otherwise I would have dump my original M9 and get my hand on one of these baby

What are the gun laws like in Australia for handguns? Are long guns and handguns segregated license wise?

 

[jhungary]

What are the gun laws like in Australia for handguns? Are long guns and handguns segregated license wise?

Gun law in Australia is CRAZYYYY straight.

Like US, each states are responsible for its own gun law, but unlike the US, there exist the federal guideline and each states can only go stricter than the federal guideline. but not the other way.

In New South Wales, the law seperate weapon into 5 category. Long Arms and Pistol are seperated and you will need apporiate license or "endoresment" to purchase correspondent firearms.

A.) Long Arms - Bolt Action Rim Fire Rifle/Shotgun/Air Rifle/Paint Ball Gun
B.) Long Arms - Bolt Action Center Fire Rifle/Shotgun/Air Rifle/Paint Ball Gun
C.) Class A and B but with magazine capacity of 5 rounds (for bolt action/pump action rifle and shotgun) 10 rounds for semi-automatic rifle
D.) Class A and B but with magazine capacity more than 10 rounds.
H.) Handgun. Handgun, maximum capacity of 10 rounds, overall length must be longer than 120mm, caliber cannot be more than 9mm (up to .45 if you have special IPSC endorsement)

Basically, A, B and H can be obtain by any sport shooter, C and D require a genuiene reasons such as pest control or primary production. Anything not listed above is banned in Australia.

You can only get a H Firearms license for one of the three purpose - Gunsmith, Sport Shooting and Security Personnel. For gun smith, you need to do apporiate course and/or training to get the gun smith license. For Sport Shooting, you will need to join a club and pass the test and be in the club for at least 1 year. For security license, you must be endored by any H6 Licensee and Train more or less like a sport shooter.

Also, once you got a license, you will need seperate permit for each firearms you buy. The Police will look at what you shoot and how many firearms you will need and what kind of firearms you will need to approve the acquiring permits. Each permits permitted you to acquire 1 firearm. It was done in a case-by-case basis, but in general, you are not allow to have more than 3 firearms for a single discipline you are shooting. So if you shoot service pistol and service revolver, you will not allow to get more than 3 semi-automatic pistol and 3 revolver at all time. Sometime you are not allow to have more than 2. But again, that's depending on person to person.

And finally, Airsoft or BB Gun are count as Real Firearms, and is licensed accordingly, since most Airsoft and BB Gun are either automatics and/or more than 10 rounds, they are not allwoed in Australia.

 

[Nilgiri]

A.) Long Arms - Bolt Action Rim Fire Rifle/Shotgun/Air Rifle/Paint Ball Gun
B.) Long Arms - Bolt Action Center Fire Rifle/Shotgun/Air Rifle/Paint Ball Gun
C.) Class A and B but with magazine capacity of 5 rounds (for bolt action/pump action rifle and shotgun) 10 rounds for semi-automatic rifle
D.) Class A and B but with magazine capacity more than 10 rounds.
H.) Handgun. Handgun, maximum capacity of 10 rounds, overall length must be longer than 120mm, caliber cannot be more than 9mm (up to .45 if you have special IPSC endorsement)

I thought Canada was bad for regulations....but damn!

Wow they include paint ball guns and air rifles in there too? I believe here they only get counted above a certain muzzle speed of projectile.

Canada simply has PAL (for all long guns) and RPAL (for handguns) each with a test. Personal defense is not an acceptable reason for either one (has to be sport, or other reasons like you listed). No distinction on PAL regarding rimfire, centerfire or rifle/shot gun etc....the test basically covers and qualifies you on everything.

All handguns needs to be registered (with the cops essentially) and the cops issue you an ATT (hand gun travel permit) for use at specific gun ranges or more specifically if you are moving house etc. Each handgun needs a separate ATT.

There used to be a long gun registry (where each long gun had to also be registered and have its own effective license) but it got scrapped by the last govt (though its speculated the archives still exist). You can now buy a legal long gun as long as you have your PAL license and don't need to inform the govt (who in the registry system had to issue you paperwork that needed to go with the gun wherever it went).

There is also a prohib license, but thats extremely difficult for any regular civilian to get (unless it gets "grandfathered" with a specific prohib firearm). Someone I know in another forum actually has a ma-deuce HMG which was grandfathered to him....and last year I had the privelege of firing an MG34 at a range which again would need such a license (basically the gun had to be acquired before 1998 I believe and you needed some extra paperwork mumbo jumbo regarding why you have it...collection, antique etc).

We cant have more than a 5 round mag for any long gun* except rimfire where the restriction is 10 round mag (also limit for handguns). Full auto is completely banned. Long guns can be arbitrarily made prohib by the RCMP (police) even if they are semi auto (because the police can simply state they can be made fully auto).

*Some people get around the mag round restriction by choosing rifles with pistol round calibre (think sub machine gun but with no full auto) and thus can use pistol mags...and apparently its technically legal given the way the law was written....which I find pretty funny. An example is the Marlin Carbine using the 1911 magazine.

@django @Jonah Arthur @MilSpec @MastanKhan

 

[jhungary]

I thought Canada was bad for regulations....but damn!

Wow they include paint ball guns and air rifles in there too? I believe here they only get counted above a certain muzzle speed of projectile.

Canada simply has PAL (for all long guns) and RPAL (for handguns) each with a test. Personal defense is not an acceptable reason for either one (has to be sport, or other reasons like you listed). No distinction on PAL regarding rimfire, centerfire or rifle/shot gun etc....the test basically covers and qualifies you on everything.

All handguns needs to be registered (with the cops essentially) and the cops issue you an ATT (hand gun travel permit) for use at specific gun ranges or more specifically if you are moving house etc. Each handgun needs a separate ATT.

There used to be a long gun registry (where each long gun had to also be registered and have its own effective license) but it got scrapped by the last govt (though its speculated the archives still exist). You can now buy a legal long gun as long as you have your PAL license and don't need to inform the govt (who in the registry system had to issue you paperwork that needed to go with the gun wherever it went).

There is also a prohib license, but thats extremely difficult for any regular civilian to get (unless it gets "grandfathered" with a specific prohib firearm). Someone I know in another forum actually has a ma-deuce HMG which was grandfathered to him....and last year I had the privelege of firing an MG34 at a range which again would need such a license (basically the gun had to be acquired before 1998 I believe and you needed some extra paperwork mumbo jumbo regarding why you have it...collection, antique etc).

We cant have more than a 5 round mag for any long gun* except rimfire where the restriction is 10 round mag (also limit for handguns). Full auto is completely banned. Long guns can be arbitrarily made prohib by the RCMP (police) even if they are semi auto (because the police can simply state they can be made fully auto).

*Some people get around the mag round restriction by choosing rifles with pistol round calibre (think sub machine gun but with no full auto) and thus can use pistol mags...and apparently its technically legal given the way the law was written....which I find pretty funny. An example is the Marlin Carbine using the 1911 magazine.

@django @Jonah Arthur @MilSpec @MastanKhan

lol, tell me about it.......I used to have a FFL with Type 1 SOT Dealer (I used to work with a Police Department in Kansas which my friend is now a sheriff). I can buy and sell any Title 2 firearms which included Machine Gun and gerneade launcher. Now my gun safe in Australia only consisted of 4 firearms. A Python 357, S&W M686, Glock 17A and a Beretta M9............

Believe it or not, you can buy a pre-1968 made M2 in the US without FFL and it is legal to own one privately, M2 made after 1968 abe before 1986 is still legal to own by civvies wihtout SOT with NFA tax stamp. Post 1986 M2 is banned, and can only be own by FFL Dealer with SOT stamp.

I always thing Canada is more liberal in gun law, but what you are saying is like the Aussie system, but just with less restriction.

In Australia, any type of semi-auto rifle are illegal unless you have special endorsement. For example, you cannot own a M1 Garand in any way unless you have a Class C licence, because it is a semi-auto (so you cannot get it with A and B).

One thing people don't quite understand is that the Australia even classified any firable toy gun as real firearms lol........Regardless of energy dissipated, as long as it can fire "something" it is a real firearms. And since most airsoft can chamber more than 10 rounds, it is complete ILLEGAL to own any airsoft, BB gun and Air Pallet Gun. Paint Ball gun was recently legalized by the government in 2013 when they were put into Class A and B category with special status.

 

[Nilgiri]

One thing people don't quite understand is that the Australia even classified any firable toy gun as real firearms lol........Regardless of energy dissipated, as long as it can fire "something" it is a real firearms. And since most airsoft can chamber more than 10 rounds, it is complete ILLEGAL to own any airsoft, BB gun and Air Pallet Gun. Paint Ball gun was recently legalized by the government in 2013 when they were put into Class A and B category with special status.

Wow...will have to keep that in mind and quiz some other aussie friends I have about that. Didn't know it was that...crazy.

The reason Australia pops up in some of my conversations was the huge long gun buy-back/confiscation program they did in the 90s I believe (after that one massacre... port something)....and all those firearms were destroyed because of it ...like coulda warehoused and sold them to the gun nuts this side of the pond or something....but nope crush em and burn em. Sad.

 

[jhungary]

Wow...will have to keep that in mind and quiz some other aussie friends I have about that. Didn't know it was that...crazy.

The reason Australia pops up in some of my conversations was the huge long gun buy-back/confiscation program they did in the 90s I believe (after that one massacre... port something)....and all those firearms were destroyed because of it ...like coulda warehoused and sold them to the gun nuts this side of the pond or something....but nope crush em and burn em. Sad.

It's Port Authur Massacre, before that, Australia have a similar gun law than in the US, where you can literally own anything. They have a big buy back afterward, then another one after the Monash Shooting in 2002, and another one after some bikie outbreak in 2008, most of these gun were destroyed, and some of them ended up in the opposite side of the pond in New Zealand.

New Zealand have a similar gun law than in Canada, more relax actually, a lot of Aussie Sport shooter move to New Zealand to do sport shooting, due to the Trans-Tasman agreement, every Australian have a permanent residence right in New Zealand, and vice versa, and we can get New Zealand Citizenship if we stay in New Zealand for a few years.

 

[denel]

is this a joke? browning hi-power!

Beretta is way to go or CZ.