Can a Muslim be an Indian?

[Developereo]

While there has been a lot of discussion of the historical context, I am more interested in the future trends.

I see the rise of India's power being mirrored by the rise of Hindu nationalism.

To some extent, that is fine and Hindus have every right to be proud. But I expect, this will lead to trouble as Hindu nationalists put pressure on secularists and minorities to abide by their agenda.

The safeguards around secularism can be easily circumvented, as they have been in parts of Europe, by using culture as a Trojan horse to enforce religiously motivated agendas.

 

[Kaniska]

While there has been a lot of discussion of the historical context, I am more interested in the future trends.

I see the rise of India's power being mirrored by the rise of Hindu nationalism.

To some extent, that is fine and Hindus have every right to be proud. But I expect, this will lead to trouble as Hindu nationalists put pressure on secularists and minorities to abide by their agenda.

The safeguards around secularism can be easily circumvented, as they have been in parts of Europe, by using culture as a Trojan horse to enforce religiously motivated agendas.

I am not sure...if people do realize it or not, the intent/Ultimate goal of people who votes for BJP is not to create a Hindu rastra...Rather a strong and deveoped nation...And to achieve this goal, it is much needed to remove the obstacle called Congress....So in a nutshell, the concept of far right and anti Muslim agenda is just an means to reach to power for BJP but it is not an end to itself...As Modi slowly consoilidates his position in Indian central politics, he will start taking into account Muslims along with him in his own terms...And his own terms does not mean to demonize Muslims but to show them a path where Gov will only help its citizen to provide economic prosperity and security to them in return than Muslim people start trusting BJP..

In a nutshell, BJP's strident Hinduism will be slowly gets diluted and it will be replaced with more or more development plank...And this is what will be the ultimate binding force and major thrust for BJP rule in its term..

 

[indushek]

I did not , I came to the conclusion through media(and internal accounts of which I am not bringing into play)..Media which includes that of the entire world excluding Pakistan.

In a large country like India there will always be differences. Particularly in light of our cultural differences and the historical baggage both pre and post partition carried, it is intensified several degrees. It just needs a match to be lighted. However the beauty of democracy is that it always diffuses this match and tries to prevent the light.

However Congress in its thirst for power has rightly identified one winning formula. Corner the minorities and corner the throne.

How do u corner them, first they used sops, benefits. But how long can these hold them, so the best thing is have an enemy. Here comes the BJP which sprung out of Janata party and needed a base to solidify themselves. They went after this angst in majority (after all in a group of poor u start favoring some the rest are indeed angered). So BJP due to their need for base by default took the role of this imaginary enemy to Muslims (it became real when individual actions worked this way for personal gains). Do u know that Congress govt kept silent even though they knew of cases where riots would occur and then came in, in the aftermath to play the 'protector'. Case in point 'Babri Masjid'. All the so called secular parties are guilty of this and the leaders of Muslims community too, surprise isn't it. Well its 'paapi pet ka saval' basically. But who will agree to this or which media will tell this.

Once the liberalization happened here came the media, which was bought of by rich people pandering to the one family. How do u get good ratings, by showing proper news ?? no sir u need foxification. Woe be journalistic standards. Pick up where ever minorities are in trouble and glorify the same. This argument doesn't say the minorities aren't in trouble. But do u know what happens certain things are visually depicted more than once to the degree that one becomes insensitive to them.

I am not saying everything is a carefully crafted plan, things move at their own pace but opportunistic people with power use them to make the happenings fall in place. Individual plans and personal plans added the much required masala.

I mean u are talking about a media where radia tapes came into open, and the one indicted continues to be one of the top journalists in India. Channels where secular credentials kept the panelist in safe zone and the balanced one became so attacked that viewer kept wondering what is happening here.

International media might have their sources here and since there is a genuine problem they will write about it, but not to the extent that our so called secular journalists like Sagarika, Barkha et all would like the viewers to believe.

This long monologue was required because if this kind of media could keep people in India captivated and confused. It isn't a wonder that u have this opinion.

I have jumped lot of things which might be relevant but this is the best i could explain my version.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I see the rise of India's power being mirrored by the rise of Hindu nationalism.

To some extent, that is fine and Hindus have every right to be proud. But I expect, this will lead to trouble as Hindu nationalists put pressure on secularists and minorities to abide by their agenda.

The safeguards around secularism can be easily circumvented, as they have been in parts of Europe, by using culture as a Trojan horse to enforce religiously motivated agendas.

And what will be the end-game for this upwards trend of Hindu nationalism in India?

 

[Developereo]

I am not sure...if people do realize it or not, the intent/Ultimate goal of people who votes for BJP is not to create a Hindu rastra...Rather a strong and deveoped nation...And to achieve this goal, it is much needed to remove the obstacle called Congress....So in a nutshell, the concept of far right and anti Muslim agenda is just an means to reach to power for BJP but it is not an end to itself...As Modi slowly consoilidates his position in Indian central politics, he will start taking into account Muslims along with him in his own terms...And his own terms does not mean to demonize Muslims but to show them a path where Gov will only help its citizen to provide economic prosperity and security to them in return than Muslim people start trusting BJP..

In a nutshell, BJP's strident Hinduism will be slowly gets diluted and it will be replaced with more or more development plank...And this is what will be the ultimate binding force and major thrust for BJP rule in its term..

I fully accept the fact that many people -- Hindu and non-Hindu -- voted for BJP for governance, not anti-Muslim agenda.

However, my comment applies irrespective of BJP.

India has been under foreign domination for centuries and the liberation and rise of India coincides with people's pride in Indian history and culture. As I mentioned, this is perfectly legitimate and pride in Hindu culture is also reasonable.

My only concern is that this pride might get hijacked by extremist elements who want to purge India of all colonial influences. The prime target for these groups tends to be, not so much the British legacy, but the Islamic one, and Indian Muslims are held hostage to this centuries old simmering resentment.

The question, then, becomes to what extent the extremist agenda will infiltrate the legitimate celebration of Hindu culture.

And what will be the end-game for this upwards trend of Hindu nationalism in India?

The extreme ones want to convert all non-Hindus to Hinduism -- or to expel them from India.

I believe their end game is India = Hinduism and being Indian = being Hindu.

Some might tolerate offshoots of Hinduism (Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, etc.) initially, or they may not.

In any case, their main anger is against Muslims because of the historical conquests.

PS. Please note that I am not criticizing the concept of India as a "Hindu" or Dharmic country. It is a legitimate statement, in the same way as saying that the US is based on Judeo-Christian culture. The problem comes with trying to "reconvert" people of other faiths.

 

[Levina]

According to India's 2001 census, Indian Hindus barely made the "psychologically important" 80% mark. By a fraction of a percentage.And considering that Indian Muslims have a significantly higher total fertility rate than Indian Hindus (around 4-5 children each), and considering that a decade has passed since then, it is pretty much certain that Indian Hindus are now less than 80%. And that is not even counting the supposed Bangladeshi immigration.
.

Ignoratio elenchi!!!
But I'm glad that you know about TFR (total fertility rate).
Now let me clear a few misconceptions.

1) Muslims 're not prone to population explosions.If so then every religion would undergo the same.

2) If you reason that a single man can marry many woman and ergo muslims have a higher TFR then you're mistaken again.Population growth depends on the number of children each woman has.... whether from one man or many.
Now if a woman has two children over her lifetime these two would replace herself and her husband when they pass on without depleting the population or adding to it. Given the likelihood of some children not living to adulthood the TFR that is required to achieve replacement has to be marginally higher and is generally accepted as 2.1.

3)TFR has been declining in every major Muslim nation. It is below the replacement level in Iran. Indonesia and Bangladesh are soon gonna hit that level.

4)To an extent social backwardness has been identified as the reason for high TFRs but I do dont see that happening in case of BD. BD's TFR of 2.2 in 2011 is significantly lower than India’s 2.7.
And in India backward states like Jharkhand, Bihar and Uttar Pradesh still have high TFRs: 3.5, 4.2 and 3.6 respectively.

5) Now as the societies become more prosperous, healthy then women gain more control over their own lives, their TFR comes down. This happens regardless of religion or geography. Catholics were supposed to resist contraception. But the very catholic Spain and Italy today have a TFR of 1.2 tying with your own Hong Kong for the lowest rate among countries.

6) countries with largest muslim show the following trend

where's the logic @Chinese-Dragon that only Muslims have a higher TFR???
But if you still refuse to believe what I told you then I will have to conclude that your intention like many others here is to sully my nation and ppl. If so you can continue doing so while I will wait till data related to religions is released.I've no other option to make you believe.

 

[jbond197]

It is meaningless to ask the question that - can Muslim be an Indian? The better questions to be asked in today's context will be- Can a Muslim be a Muslim? Or Who is the real Muslim?

Looking at the rate at which a bunch of Muslims are declaring another bunch non-Muslims just to conveniently save the ideology being blamed for the crimes of other bunch, even though its apparently clear that the other bunch is driven by the very same ideology. One bunc says they are the real Muslims, another call themselves the real ones. Now when they can't even decide who is really a Muslim then how can they decide on nationality. They are living a confused existence and going direction less so if they remain confused about the nation state concept then that's hardly a surprise.

 

[Levina]

While there has been a lot of discussion of the historical context, I am more interested in the future trends.

I see the rise of India's power being mirrored by the rise of Hindu nationalism.

To some extent, that is fine and Hindus have every right to be proud. But I expect, this will lead to trouble as Hindu nationalists put pressure on secularists and minorities to abide by their agenda.

The safeguards around secularism can be easily circumvented, as they have been in parts of Europe, by using culture as a Trojan horse to enforce religiously motivated agendas.

You're right!!
At times on the forum I do feel that pressure when ppl start bashing me or others for being secular.
But what others dont understand about hinduism is that its a very liberal religion and ergo it is one of the oldest religions on earth. Those who beat the drums of hindu nationalism 're ppl who would not 've visited a temple for over a month. Regular praying is also not mandatory. But hinduism makes us follow a lifestyle which is adopted by every hindu consciously or unconsciously.
We are more adaptive by habit,like vegetarianism took over after Buddhism spread in India.
we adapted well back then and we would adapt well in the future. Other religions dont have to fear a rising hinduism.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Ignoratio elenchi!!!
But I'm glad that you know about TFR (total fertility rate).
Now let me clear a few misconceptions.

1) Muslims 're not prone to population explosions.If so then every religion would undergo the same.

2) If you reason that a single man can marry many woman and ergo muslims have a higher TFR then you're mistaken again.Population growth depends on the number of children each woman has.... whether from one man or many.
Now if a woman has two children over her lifetime these two would replace herself and her husband when they pass on without depleting the population or adding to it. Given the likelihood of some children not living to adulthood the TFR that is required to achieve replacement has to be marginally higher and is generally accepted as 2.1.

3)TFR has been declining in every major Muslim nation. It is below the replacement level in Iran. Indonesia and Bangladesh are soon gonna hit that level.
4)To the extent social backwardness has been identified as the reason for high TFRs but I do dont see that happening in case of BD. BD's TFR of 2.2 in 2011 is significantly lower than India’s 2.7.
And in India backward states like Jharkhand, Bihar and Uttar Pradesh still have high TFRs: 3.5, 4.2 and 3.6 respectively.

5) Now as the societies become more prosperous, healthy and women gain a more control over their own lives, their TFR comes down. This happens regardless of religion or geography. Catholics were supposed to resist contraception. But the very catholic Spain and Italy today have a TFR of 1.2 tying with your own Hong Kong for the lowest rate among countries.

6) countries with largest muslim show the following trend

View attachment 138561


where's the logic @Chinese-Dragon that only Muslims have a higher TFR???
But if you still refuse to believe what I told you then I will have to conclude that your intention like many others here is to sully my nation and ppl. If so you can continue doing so while I will wait till data related to religions is released.I've no other option to make you believe.

Well you proved my point. Apparently religion does matter.

Do you think that if one day India has a Muslim population of 30-40%, they will demand Sharia law, as they have done everywhere else?

India already has Sharia courts for example.

 

[Panther 57]

this is an absurd topic.

 

[Dem!god]

Well you proved my point. Apparently religion does matter.

Do you think that if one day India has a Muslim population of 30-40%, they will demand Sharia law, as they have done everywhere else?

India already has Sharia courts for example.

of course they will... but it will never go beyond 18% of the population.... as birth rate in.muslims are coming down...

 

[Levina]

Well you proved my point. Apparently religion does matter.

where?? when??? how???

Do you think that if one day India has a Muslim population of 30-40%, they will demand Sharia law, as they have done everywhere else?

India already has Sharia courts for example.

one day when the muslims reach 30-40% population in India...and IF they demand a sharia law then this is what I expect my leader to tell them.

And as far as I know our government is working on UCC (uniform civil code) which would ensure that no religion whether a minority or majority will get a special status under the constitution.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I am not saying, ma'am that you were wrong in saying that Mr.Jinnah did vow for a more or less secular state in his 11th August speech. What I differed with the interpretation that he may have been confused; He was not and fully aware of the unbridgeable difference in his ideology before and after 1947. The difference did not come from confusion but it came from decade long frustration, anger and hostile attitude from a certain quarter both from Muslim league and Congress.

Maybe their was no difference. What Jinnah did was exactly what every politician does. Tell the people what they want to hear. He didn't have agree with it.

 

[indushek]

I fully accept the fact that many people -- Hindu and non-Hindu -- voted for BJP for governance, not anti-Muslim agenda.

However, my comment applies irrespective of BJP.

India has been under foreign domination for centuries and the liberation and rise of India coincides with people's pride in Indian history and culture. As I mentioned, this is perfectly legitimate and pride in Hindu culture is also reasonable.

My only concern is that this pride might get hijacked by extremist elements who want to purge India of all colonial influences. The prime target for these groups tends to be, not so much the British legacy, but the Islamic one, and Indian Muslims are held hostage to this centuries old simmering resentment.

The question, then, becomes to what extent the extremist agenda will infiltrate the legitimate celebration of Hindu culture.



The extreme ones want to convert all non-Hindus to Hinduism -- or to expel them from India.

I believe their end game is India = Hinduism and being Indian = being Hindu.

Some might tolerate offshoots of Hinduism (Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, etc.) initially, or they may not.

In any case, their main anger is against Muslims because of the historical conquests.

PS. Please note that I am not criticizing the concept of India as a "Hindu" or Dharmic country. It is a legitimate statement, in the same way as saying that the US is based on Judeo-Christian culture. The problem comes with trying to "reconvert" people of other faiths.

There are far too many hounds waiting to be unleashed even if they scent some thing like this from BJP or any other party. These hounds are what protect the democratic nature of India. Even the hardest of the hard core extremist will not dare to do this.

Democracy has become so deep rooted in India by now that even if we wanted it to be removed it can't be.

That doesn't mean we are perfect but that is how it is.

 

[Developereo]

There are far too many hounds waiting to be unleashed even if they scent some thing like this from BJP or any other party. These hounds are what protect the democratic nature of India. Even the hardest of the hard core extremist will not dare to do this.

Democracy has become so deep rooted in India by now that even if we wanted it to be removed it can't be.

That doesn't mean we are perfect but that is how it is.

I was talking more about secularism than democracy. I don't doubt that democracy is defended fiercely in India, but secularism can be subverted by promoting religious agendas in a cultural garb.