What's new

Can a Muslim be an Indian?

no body Is demonizing them....
how u came to this conclusion... our minority( which they are nt, 15% Is not a minority) are way better than ur majority... in every aspect of life...

Well, regardless of worse off(or not) the majority in Pakistan is...the gauge here is India. lets stick to that.
And in that gauge we have new and rather sinister campaign against some imaginary "love Jihad" and other aspects that seem to have no other purpose than to demonize this minority.
 
A very interesting and nice read after a long time. Personally, what I felt after reading it is that, (assuming it has not been covered in the rest of the writing) the article, in its quest for the concept of Muslim nationalism and nationalist Muslim, has strolled a little bit more in the period between 1937 to 1947; emphasizing strongly on the creation of an exclusive state for Muslims and the further repercussions among political and social quarters.

It is entirely my own perception that, the study of Indian Nationalism and the role of Islam in it will remain incomplete if we exclude four different points at different times of Indian History viz the introduction of Islam in North West and South West of India in eighth century and the nature of its further penetration into the existing societies, a detailed study of the Medina Charter, Mughal emperor Akbar's concept of rahi aql in 16th Century and finally, a more detailed discourse on the Muslim sentiments in North West Frontier province, Punjab, Sindh, Baluchistan and Bengal (where Musllims enjoyed substantial majority) about a separate Islamic State. Only then, perhaps we will understand better, the role of Islam in Indian (unified) nationalism amidst of massive heterogeneity and its present implications.

PS: No comments, anyone?

The basis for a separate state was the fact that by the turn of the 20th Century, Muslims of the subcontinent, due to their own reasons, had become way way behind the much larger Hindu community. When you see a post man, a clerk, a soldier, an officer, a tax man, a railway engineer (Didn't British take a bunch to Africa as well?) etc being majority Hindus, you tend to harbor some resentment. It's innate human weakness, and they will find ways to correct this disparity. Isn't this the same in the west? When they see a brown guy 'taking local jobs' etc?

Second was the Congress, which was created to help further the participation of native Indians within the British iron handed rule. Since it too became too much Hindu dominated, the politics became hindu dominated as well, which was a cause for concern for Muslims.

Third, in it's initial stages Jinnah actually preached against a separate homeland. Jinnah was a trained barrister, an advocate and a freaking good one. Just like Gandhi. In him, the muslims saw a man who could take on the superior 'Gora sahib' and as such he was asked by Iqbal and others to come join the politics and lead Muslim league, and as such advocate for a separate homeland because by the time 1940s arrived, the pull was too far great.
Now, what better opportunity to get your demands met, when Britain was bankrupt in 1945 and had no cash left to help the Indians? (later evident by their hastily set up partition plan) and thanks to the dyslexic Cyril Radcliffe, the map was anything but along the linguistic/ethnic lines, and omitted a big chunk of J&K altogether.

Many people mistakenly believe that it was Jinnah who created Pakistan. Nope. He did not. It was the wider muslim movement, heck Iqbal had more role to play than Jinnah. Jinnah took it as pro bono (if that's the correct term for free services) and merely became the representative of the muslims in front of the British and Congress, and as such advocated their demands.

It's not like one day Jinnah dreamed of a separate homeland and he said, let's make Pakistan.
 
Well, regardless of worse off(or not) the majority in Pakistan is...the gauge here is India. lets stick to that.
And in that gauge we have new and rather sinister campaign against some imaginary "love Jihad" and other aspects that seem to have no other purpose than to demonize this minority.
and how do u know that... its imaginary .... do u know abt the ground reality what's happening here in india....
love jihad is a term not coined in india but has a Western origin.... we only saw the same happenings here in india in some very crude form....
 
Nice summery, levina but I would like to humbly disagree with the underlined part. Mr.Jinnah could be anything but not confused by any means.His character, as was among his contemporaries, is still like an enigma encryption machine to most of us,Indians because we have not paid much attention to early part of his career, Bombay Muslim proposal or Lucknow pact when he was truly considered as an unrivaled champion of Hindu Muslim unity.In understanding Jinnah's personal character, we hardly have cared to discuss much about incidents that are hardly discussed like his (along with Ruttie) strange dinner in Governor House,Bombay with lord and lady Willingdon, his amazing (and quite unprecedented in Indian political platform too) insult before a large crowd in 1920 Nagpur Congress as well as in 1928 Calcutta conference where he was made fun by the Hindu nationalist faction within Congress and his decision to remain still loyal to the united India cause tell us much more about him than what we usually presume with his role in Pakistan movement only; becoming merely a victim of a poor sense of parochialism.

His political career, unlike Gandhi did not went through a constant metamorphosis, rather it was pretty consistent till the beginning of Second World War; not for a single moment losing his personal charisma, wit or unprecedented western life style among his contemporaries. The very reason why the sub continent version of Two nation Theory resembles more of its Irish counterpart rather Syed Ahmad Khan in it is the role played by front bench of Indian National Congress led by Gandhi, who just like us was irrational and rigid in understanding a Muslim educated in Victorian England and concentrated more in alienating him from Indian politics just like Jinnah's own Muslim League factions.

As Oscar rightly pointed out, to understand Jinnah unless a more unconventional approach is applied by Indians, a factually incorrect generalized perception of Jinnah as a necessary evil of an alien faith, snatching a holy piece of land righteously deserved by the innocent native Hindus will not be easy to dissipate.
Thanks Scorpionx for sharing that info with me.

Now about Jinnah I dont think I was wrong. As you read in the article Jinnah was opposed by his own men who thought Jinnah made a mistake by saying so... as shown in these lines.


1.jpg




At this point I would like to request @Horus pls dont paste the pdf pages because it becomes so hard to find words and paragraphs from such long articles. Cntrl + F doesnt work.



That were a lot of jews in Europe as well. We all know what happened to them .
Bad example to back up your point.
what are you coming to??

The muslims in India I've met 're have never been "demonized" ,not that you would believe my personal experience. So go on and read this when free
Why Muslims love to live in free India
we in India are extremely safe and happy

INDIA India at 64, Muslim man says Indian Muslims are happy - Asia News

BBC News - Why al-Qaeda finds no recruits in India


Now I seriously want to know just how many ppl who visited this thread have read this article???
@scorpionx I dont know why I've this very strong feeling that most of the ppl who have visited this thread have not even read the complete article other than you and me, it seems the title of this thread has attracted ppl who bash up India when that was not the conclusion of this article or atleast I've not interpreted it that way.
 
Now I seriously want to know just how many ppl who visited this thread have read this article???
@scorpionx I dont know why I've this very strong feeling that most of the ppl who have visited this thread have not even read the complete article, it seems the title of this thread has attracted ppl who bash up India when that was not the conclusion of this article or atleast I've not interpreted it that way.

Finding feel good articles is again showing that you are looking for tangents to walk away from the real issue. If Muslims are completely happy in India then why do these communal issues keep popping up now and then. What underlying sentiments fuel their rage?
 
Finding feel good articles is again showing that you are looking for tangents to walk away from the real issue. If Muslims are completely happy in India then why do these communal issues keep popping up now and then. What underlying sentiments fuel their rage?

Sir, it is even reasonable to expect all minorities to be "completely happy" in countries of several hundred million, or over a billion, in these times of increasing competition for resources at just about every level?

The important thing is to build systems of legal and social justice that provide the tools for all to use, equally.
 
Now about Jinnah I dont think I was wrong.
I am not saying, ma'am that you were wrong in saying that Mr.Jinnah did vow for a more or less secular state in his 11th August speech. What I differed with the interpretation that he may have been confused; He was not and fully aware of the unbridgeable difference in his ideology before and after 1947. The difference did not come from confusion but it came from decade long frustration, anger and hostile attitude from a certain quarter both from Muslim league and Congress.

It's not like one day Jinnah dreamed of a separate homeland and he said, let's make Pakistan.

I agree and have said quite the same in my second post. What I tried to point out that, although there were differences between the two communities it was not wholly irreconcilable and intransigent as the history of Islam in the region is interpreted among Hindu nationalists.
 
Finding feel good articles is again showing that you are looking for tangents to walk away from the real issue. If Muslims are completely happy in India then why do these communal issues keep popping up now and then. What underlying sentiments fuel their rage?
Excusez moi? Thats not my style.
Dont pull sweeping statements on hindus and muslims in India.
India is a huge country and ppl of different faiths live here. The occasional communal clashes which happen are mostly politically motivated. Muslims in India have occupied the highest position in India,APJ Abdul Kalam was not just a rocket scientist but also the President of India.Our IB chief today is a muslim Syed Asif Ibrahim. How many more examples do you want to me to quote??
How else should I prove to you that muslims are not "demonized"in India??
 
Excusez moi? Thats not my style.
Dont pull sweeping statements on hindus and muslims in India.
India is a huge country and ppl of different faiths live here. The occasional communal clashes which happen are mostly politically motivated. Muslims in India have occupied the highest position in India,APJ Abdul Kalam was not just a rocket scientist but also the President of India.Our IB chief today is a muslim Syed Asif Ibrahim. How many more examples do you want to me to quote??
How else should I prove to you that muslims are not "demonized"in India??

The problem is not with proving that Muslims are not demonized in India. The problem is convincing a mindset that has been carefully nurtured to believe that Muslims are demonized in India and therefore one is so much better off in Pakistan (when the reality is different) to see anything different.
 
I am not saying, ma'am that you were wrong in saying that Mr.Jinnah did vow for a more or less secular state in his 11th August speech. What I differed with the interpretation that he may have been confused; He was not and fully aware of the unbridgeable difference in his ideology before and after 1947. The difference did not come from confusion but it came from decade long frustration, anger and hostile attitude from a certain quarter both from Muslim league and Congress.
Now I might get brickbats for saying this but I think had Jinnah and Nehru been a little more patient then India would not have got divided at all.This division was politically motivated.

The problem is not with proving that Muslims are not demonized in India. The problem is convincing a mindset that has been carefully nurtured to believe that Muslims are demonized in India and therefore one is so much better off in Pakistan (when the reality is different) to see anything different.
Right!!!
And that should be the reason why I find it very hard to convince ppl here that muslims in India lead a normal life like all the other ppl in India.Its very hard to break that mindset.
 
Finding feel good articles is again showing that you are looking for tangents to walk away from the real issue. If Muslims are completely happy in India then why do these communal issues keep popping up now and then. What underlying sentiments fuel their rage?
and having -ve views for india won't change the reality...
where communal issue don't pop up... shia sunni, sunni Ahmedia, Christian muslims, talk of a nation who is not suffering ftom it.... even the most calm people ,BUDDHIST are up in arms now...
better its tym for muslims to look forward to their religion in new way... jst saying islam don't hv problem but followers hv won't change the fact ...
every nation faces tension be it communal, racism, capitalist- communist ,.. etc etc...
its high tym muslims should start looking into their problem from a bigger window... they need to broaden their angle of vision,, realize their mistakes and change it...
 
Right!!!
And that should be the reason why I find it very hard to convince ppl here that muslims in India lead a normal life like all the other ppl in India.Its very hard to break that mindset.

The best way is to highlight the results, fairly and honestly. Reality trumps all manufactured perceptions. For example, look at the consumer goods market in India, and the relative strength of its currency. Imperfect as it is as a country (like all countries), relatively speaking it is in a far better position from a social and economic point of view compared to others in South Asia.

I will admit that as a Pakistani-American, it hurts me to say the above, but say it I must, for it is only fair and honest to accept it to be so, given the evidence. Once more Pakistanis realize it is when they might try harder to change their minds too. And if they do not, reality will do it for them.
 
Excusez moi? Thats not my style.
Dont pull sweeping statements on hindus and muslims in India.
India is a huge country and ppl of different faiths live here. The occasional communal clashes which happen are mostly politically motivated. Muslims in India have occupied the highest position in India,APJ Abdul Kalam was not just a rocket scientist but also the President of India.Our IB chief today is a muslim Syed Asif Ibrahim. How many more examples do you want to me to quote??
How else should I prove to you that muslims are not "demonized"in India??

It is an empirical impossibility to make sweeping statements on Indian demographics. Yet, one gets the perception from only looking at these defence forums on the underlying and ever increasing angst against Muslims in India by a now growing radicalised right wing intrusion into the mainstream.

and having -ve views for india won't change the reality...
where communal issue don't pop up... shia sunni, sunni Ahmedia, Christian muslims, talk of a nation who is not suffering ftom it.... even the most calm people ,BUDDHIST are up in arms now...
better its tym for muslims to look forward to their religion in new way... jst saying islam don't hv problem but followers hv won't change the fact ...
every nation faces tension be it communal, racism, capitalist- communist ,.. etc etc...
its high tym muslims should start looking into their problem from a bigger window... they need to broaden their angle of vision,, realize their mistakes and change it...

The negative views are subjective. Depending upon the context and scope of the subject.
 
Now I might get brickbats for saying this but I think had Jinnah and Nehru been a little more patient then India would not have got divided at all.This division was politically motivated.
Contemporary British records shows since the 40's partition of India or at the least the idea of a fully autonomous North West was running in the British minds keeping the upcoming cold war in to consideration and Churchill, deeply agitated by non cooperation by Congress was firm on keeping strategic North West out of the reach of the Hindus whom he never trusted in his entire life; making Jinnah just a bogeyman in the whole affair, as believed by a set of western as well as Indian historians. As far as patience is concerned, Jinnah waited for most of his life time. Can't say the same thing for Nehru. The emotional, charismatic and indefatigable Indian leader used to lose his patience quite often.
 
The best way is to highlight the results, fairly and honestly. Reality trumps all manufactured perceptions. For example, look at the consumer goods market in India, and the relative strength of its currency. Imperfect as it is as a country (like all countries), relatively speaking it is in a far better position from a social and economic point of view compared to others in South Asia.

I will admit that as a Pakistani-American, it hurts me to say the above, but say it I must, for it is only fair and honest to accept it to be so, given the evidence. Once more Pakistanis realize it is when they might try harder to change their minds too. And if they do not, reality will do it for them.
:tup::tup::tup:
I am surprised that you hold such liberal views.

I know my country might not be the best,we have our issues.I hope our countries can find peace ultimately.

It is an empirical impossibility to make sweeping statements on Indian demographics. Yet, one gets the perception from only looking at these defence forums on the underlying and ever increasing angst against Muslims in India by a now growing radicalised right wing intrusion into the mainstream.
so thats how to you come to these mendacious conclusions??
The members on this forum or most other forums represent just a tiny minority of our society and ergo their opinions may or may not be representative of the rest of India. I think I'm wasting my time banging my head against a wall.
And let me make it clear that BJP got a landslide victory because the minorities also voted for them. It is not an easy job to get an absolute majority in India. Ppl voted for them not because we wanted to see a change in our economy and not because we wanted a "hindu" govt in power. I'm sure you didnt know that BJP has a muslim wing too.
And if you see congress or the so called secular party defeated then its because of their blunder in making economic decisions.
kapish amigo?

Contemporary British records shows since the 40's partition of India or at the least the idea of a fully autonomous North West was running in the British minds keeping the upcoming cold war in to consideration and Churchill, deeply agitated by non cooperation by Congress was firm on keeping strategic North West out of the reach of the Hindus whom he never trusted in his entire life; making Jinnah just a bogeyman in the whole affair, as believed by a set of western as well as Indian historians. As far as patience is concerned, Jinnah waited for most of his life time. Can't say the same thing for Nehru. The emotional, charismatic and indefatigable Indian leader used to lose his patience quite often.
The divide and rule policy you mean?
 
Back
Top Bottom