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this issue of having to store liquid fuel into RCS tanks all the time should they embark on a SLBM program or even canisterization of lets say ababeel?

Why do you think Pakistan is not canistarizing missiles?
The PBV of all Shaheen series and Ababeel carries liquid fuel and liquid vernier motors .
Shaheen-3 and Ababeel carries whole third stage liquid fueled in addition to vernier motors.
This is not an "Issue" for us as canisterization is not a must.
 
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Why do you think Pakistan is not canistarizing missiles?
The PBV of all Shaheen series and Ababeel carries liquid fuel and liquid vernier motors .
Shaheen-3 and Ababeel carries whole third stage liquid fueled in addition to vernier motors.
This is not an "Issue" for us as canisterization is not a must.


Read few of your course but did not understand one thing where these engineers come from? And what are the industrial support?

Here we get huge support from Tata, L&t, Godrej, Reliance etc.
 
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@The Deterrent
What are your views on how is pakistan gonna tackle this issue of having to store liquid fuel into RCS tanks all the time should they embark on a SLBM program or even canisterization of lets say ababeel?
As of this moment, Pakistan is working on neither of the two technologies.
 
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I am surprised how much you guys can boast after shooting down a slow moving Prithvi missile.
Pakistan won't fire a prithvi sloth at you.


Am, however, not surprised at reciprocal similarity nor the inability to understand what is being said.

I know exactly what Pakistan will fire - nothing. Will you even get the chance? Think hard on that point.

Not the one to talk without knowing ......
 
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The PBV of all Shaheen series and Ababeel carries liquid fuel and liquid vernier motors .
Shaheen-3 and Ababeel carries whole third stage liquid fueled in addition to vernier motors.
This is not an "Issue" for us as canisterization is not a must.
Hi shaheen!
You do realize that RCS(reaction control system) tanks are not kept in filled state all the time! UDMH is toxic and the oxidizer is highly corrosive. It is because of these issues that RCS tanks of your PBV are filled just prior to launch--particularly the oxidizer.
Why do you think Pakistan is not canistarizing missiles?
As I said I strictly go by verifiable and established industrial capability. Pakistan might be working on anti matter drives,but can one verifiably justify such an en devour based on research work going on? Or in other words can you prove that they have successfully canisterized any of the strategic missiles--kindly note by canisterization I specifically mean "cold launch"!
 
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tSXNd6C.jpg
 
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large bi-conical RV is needed for MIRV as seen here.
There is no requirement as such that necessitates bi conical RV. Agni 2 warhead is actually a tri-conic design.
Even the great S-400 cannot track anything flying above speeds of Mach 14 and we don't know how good are Indian radars'
In the final phase that is, when the RV is decelerating in atmosphere--something like 60kms till detonation, the speed of IRBMs like shaheen,ababeel or agni 2 reduced to 3-5 mach. You can run your own simulations in language of your choice either, matlab, python or julia --you'd end up with something like 3-5mach(more probably in the vicinity of ~3M at roughly 3-10kms altitude.
Only for ICBMs the decelerated velocity is in 5-7M bracket.Kindly note I'm talking about velocities below 10km altitude.

PS-I'm not talking about velocities just prior to entering atmosphere
 
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Oh really? @hellfire ?
Your hanooman air force will invisibly come and destroy our highly mobile nukes before they are launched?
Typical Indian wet dreams.
Your Prithvi sloth is a liquid fueled second world war era toy. It's very slow and can be shot with an air gun.
If your PCV, ABC or whatever you call it , can shoot a Prithvi in boost phase, not even terminal phase then that means nothing.

There is no requirement as such that necessitates bi conical RV. Agni 2 warhead is actually a tri-conic design.

In the final phase that is, when the RV is decelerating in atmosphere--something like 60kms till detonation, the speed of IRBMs like shaheen,ababeel or agni 2 reduced to 3-5 mach. You can run your own simulations in language of your choice either, matlab, python or julia --you'd end up with something like 3-5mach(more probably in the vicinity of ~3M at roughly 3-10kms altitude.
Only for ICBMs the decelerated velocity is in 5-7M bracket.Kindly note I'm talking about velocities below 10km altitude.

PS-I'm not talking about velocities just prior to entering atmosphere
Agni-2 may be penta conical but the missile is too narrow to carry more than one. Bi conical Design is to keep the warheads upright which otherwise will have to be tilted inward to fit in and will need extra machinery and maneuvers to fire them on target.
There is no requirement as such that necessitates bi conical RV. Agni 2 warhead is actually a tri-conic design.

In the final phase that is, when the RV is decelerating in atmosphere--something like 60kms till detonation, the speed of IRBMs like shaheen,ababeel or agni 2 reduced to 3-5 mach. You can run your own simulations in language of your choice either, matlab, python or julia --you'd end up with something like 3-5mach(more probably in the vicinity of ~3M at roughly 3-10kms altitude.
Only for ICBMs the decelerated velocity is in 5-7M bracket.Kindly note I'm talking about velocities below 10km altitude.

PS-I'm not talking about velocities just prior to entering atmosphere
Bi conical design keeps the warheads upright,so yes it is a requirement for MIRV. For MREV it is not as the warheds can be stowed in tilted position and released at oncewith asymmetric thrust pyrotechnics which create some gap between them during and after release.

Agni - 2 may ne Penta conical but the missile is too narrow to carry multiple warheads. In fact no Indian missile currently has the right niose cone shape and width to carry MIRV.
Agni-3 and 5 are wide enough at 2 meters but Agni-3 PBV is too short to have any fanct maneuvering capabilities for dispensing MIRN and the Triangular / Conical nose is evidently not carrying anything more than one heavy Uranium based warhead.
In fact India hasn't demonstrated miniaturization of warheads on any of their missiles. There are no deployed Indian nuclear missiles which have visibly miniaturized warhead.
Brahmos doesn't count due to being a private company product and Russian. Nirbhay doesn't count as it is years away from deployment. Only candidate may be K-15 which may carry the smallest Indian nuclear warhead of 0.74 meter dia.
But even those cannot be MIRV on K-4.

About atmospheric deceleration of warhead. Thats not a problem unique to Pakistan, every nuclear power knows about it and does something about it.
Pakistan has significantly reduced warhead size and thus radar reflective area and less area for atmospheric friction. making it harder to detect Pakistani warheads and also maintain higher speed after re entry.
Other things can be done too, such as a gas generator at the back of the warhead which fires at randon, increasing speed at random intervals. that will make calculations very difficult for BMD radar. The BMD works on prediction. If a BMD cannot predict the incoming warhead's position accurately it will miss.
After the ABM is fired it goes towards a predicted point in space where the incoming warhead is predicted to be after x number of seconds. That prediction is based on warhead speed and direction observed by radars. Any change in those parameters will throw the calculations in the bin along with the ABM. Creating unpredictable behaviors in Missile RV is easier than most think.
 
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A good step but just a bandage so far. Neverthless the involved scientists must be commended. Now the next steps should not only include upgrading these to target any BMs thrown from any distamce but should be taken one step further and seriously start R&D on and subsequent implementation of directed energy countermeasures.
 
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Oh really? @hellfire ?
Your hanooman air force will invisibly come and destroy our highly mobile nukes before they are launched?
Typical Indian wet dreams.
Your Prithvi sloth is a liquid fueled second world war era toy. It's very slow and can be shot with an air gun.
If your PCV, ABC or whatever you call it , can shoot a Prithvi in boost phase, not even terminal phase then that means nothing.
Sir with all due respect, either you have not even the slightest of the grip on this topic or you love to play the dumb game.

RV has absolutely no means to gain speed other than what it can achieve from where it is released. This is however decided by the throw weight of the vehicle. If you want to increase your terminal Velocity you need to increase your X component of your path thereby reducing the Y component proportionately. And a fellow member has already demonstrated that the reduced range will be in the neighborhood of 900km.Plus your abdele is not opretionalized. It's decades behind.
Pakistan has significantly reduced warhead size and thus radar reflective area and less area for atmospheric friction. making it harder to detect Pakistani warheads and also maintain higher speed after re entry.
Miyan koi proof hai ya fir hawa me hi baat kar rahe ho. Ye sahi baat hai... aap ne bola aur bas wahi fact ban gaya.. aur hum technical prove kar rahe to hum dirty Indians hai. Matlab kuch bhi ho aap ne jo bola woh sahi baki sab to RAW JEWISH conspiracy hai. Sahi kahe na?

And I can understand that you clearly are a reputed scientist of Pakistan. So you may also know that even 120km above the atmosphere is dense enough to heat up the RV at reentry. The interceptors do not use RADAR, they use highly sensitive IR cameras to detect and track the RV. Now once it hits the atmosphere (80Km Out) , RV's main weapon against interception becomes its own doom. At the speeds it is travelling, making course corrections is almost impossible. Plus the weight penalty of adding additional propulsion to the existing system is just un-acceptable.

Now you may point towards exhaust ports in your warheads already, but they are there to impart a spin to the warheads improving its accuracy. This also is a nail in your maneuverable warhead theory. The spin imparted to your warhead causes something called gyroscopic stability. The same force keeping bullets from dropping too much. This is good for accuracy but bad for maneuverability.

A warhed that is travelling at Mach 10 will not only have to face immense temperatures at its nose but also friction causing it. Any sideways thrust will toppel the warhead exposing the non heat shielded part to the abrasive atmosphere and destroy it. If you add gyroscopic force to the equation, not only you would have to fire multiple thrusters accounting for the warhead spin and adjusting total thrust to move the warhead to one side, but also counteract the effects of gyroscopic force in turn burning more fuel. Bottom line, adding those extra thruster or the fuel alone for course correction inside atmosphere at terminal velocities will leave no or negligible space for actual payload. And it absolutely moronic to think an IRBM to catapult 3 such large warheads (actual nuke and the heavy thrusters & of fuel for maneuverability) to 2200Km...

Ps: Even if first layer misses, the ground based sensors detect that and second Salvo of nukes will be intercepted with the newly programed interceptors. And the missed nukes will be dealt with the second layer.
 
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Sir with all due respect, either you have not even the slightest of the grip on this topic or you love to play the dumb game.

RV has absolutely no means to gain speed other than what it can achieve from where it is released. This is however decided by the throw weight of the vehicle. If you want to increase your terminal Velocity you need to increase your X component of your path thereby reducing the Y component proportionately. And a fellow member has already demonstrated that the reduced range will be in the neighborhood of 900km.Plus your abdele is not opretionalized. It's decades behind.
Miyan koi proof hai ya fir hawa me hi baat kar rahe ho. Ye sahi baat hai... aap ne bola aur bas wahi fact ban gaya.. aur hum technical prove kar rahe to hum dirty Indians hai. Matlab kuch bhi ho aap ne jo bola woh sahi baki sab to RAW JEWISH conspiracy hai. Sahi kahe na?

And I can understand that you clearly are a reputed scientist of Pakistan. So you may also know that even 120km above the atmosphere is dense enough to heat up the RV at reentry. The interceptors do not use RADAR, they use highly sensitive IR cameras to detect and track the RV. Now once it hits the atmosphere (80Km Out) , RV's main weapon against interception becomes its own doom. At the speeds it is travelling, making course corrections is almost impossible. Plus the weight penalty of adding additional propulsion to the existing system is just un-acceptable.

Now you may point towards exhaust ports in your warheads already, but they are there to impart a spin to the warheads improving its accuracy. This also is a nail in your maneuverable warhead theory. The spin imparted to your warhead causes something called gyroscopic stability. The same force keeping bullets from dropping too much. This is good for accuracy but bad for maneuverability.

A warhed that is travelling at Mach 10 will not only have to face immense temperatures at its nose but also friction causing it. Any sideways thrust will toppel the warhead exposing the non heat shielded part to the abrasive atmosphere and destroy it. If you add gyroscopic force to the equation, not only you would have to fire multiple thrusters accounting for the warhead spin and adjusting total thrust to move the warhead to one side, but also counteract the effects of gyroscopic force in turn burning more fuel. Bottom line, adding those extra thruster or the fuel alone for course correction inside atmosphere at terminal velocities will leave no or negligible space for actual payload. And it absolutely moronic to think an IRBM to catapult 3 such large warheads (actual nuke and the heavy thrusters & of fuel for maneuverability) to 2200Km...

Ps: Even if first layer misses, the ground based sensors detect that and second Salvo of nukes will be intercepted with the newly programed interceptors. And the missed nukes will be dealt with the second layer.
Whole scientific community is surprised how IRBM can launch MIRV successfully.

It never been tested any where I don't know any missile below 3000km that is MIRVed
I don't know how Pakistani's scientific community defying Laws of physics
 
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Sir with all due respect, either you have not even the slightest of the grip on this topic or you love to play the dumb game.

RV has absolutely no means to gain speed other than what it can achieve from where it is released. This is however decided by the throw weight of the vehicle. If you want to increase your terminal Velocity you need to increase your X component of your path thereby reducing the Y component proportionately. And a fellow member has already demonstrated that the reduced range will be in the neighborhood of 900km.Plus your abdele is not opretionalized. It's decades behind.
Miyan koi proof hai ya fir hawa me hi baat kar rahe ho. Ye sahi baat hai... aap ne bola aur bas wahi fact ban gaya.. aur hum technical prove kar rahe to hum dirty Indians hai. Matlab kuch bhi ho aap ne jo bola woh sahi baki sab to RAW JEWISH conspiracy hai. Sahi kahe na?

And I can understand that you clearly are a reputed scientist of Pakistan. So you may also know that even 120km above the atmosphere is dense enough to heat up the RV at reentry. The interceptors do not use RADAR, they use highly sensitive IR cameras to detect and track the RV. Now once it hits the atmosphere (80Km Out) , RV's main weapon against interception becomes its own doom. At the speeds it is travelling, making course corrections is almost impossible. Plus the weight penalty of adding additional propulsion to the existing system is just un-acceptable.

Now you may point towards exhaust ports in your warheads already, but they are there to impart a spin to the warheads improving its accuracy. This also is a nail in your maneuverable warhead theory. The spin imparted to your warhead causes something called gyroscopic stability. The same force keeping bullets from dropping too much. This is good for accuracy but bad for maneuverability.

A warhed that is travelling at Mach 10 will not only have to face immense temperatures at its nose but also friction causing it. Any sideways thrust will toppel the warhead exposing the non heat shielded part to the abrasive atmosphere and destroy it. If you add gyroscopic force to the equation, not only you would have to fire multiple thrusters accounting for the warhead spin and adjusting total thrust to move the warhead to one side, but also counteract the effects of gyroscopic force in turn burning more fuel. Bottom line, adding those extra thruster or the fuel alone for course correction inside atmosphere at terminal velocities will leave no or negligible space for actual payload. And it absolutely moronic to think an IRBM to catapult 3 such large warheads (actual nuke and the heavy thrusters & of fuel for maneuverability) to 2200Km...

Ps: Even if first layer misses, the ground based sensors detect that and second Salvo of nukes will be intercepted with the newly programed interceptors. And the missed nukes will be dealt with the second layer.
Yea there is evidence of reduction in warhead size on Pakistani Strategic ballistic missiles. Here it is.
picsay-1450542366126.jpg


Now you can go in denial mode?

Also I never said warheads to be maneuvering at high Mach speed while being spun for stability.
I said a gas generator at the back firing randomly. Such an arrangement already is used on artillery shells . They too are spinning and travelling at supersonic speeds.
It's called base bleed and doesn't need any machinery, just a flat pyrotechnic cartridge at the base. Such an arrangement will randomly increase warhead speed and dodge ABM.
Also Indian ABM depends on Greenpine radar which cannot track anything above Mach 8.8.
The stated reentry speed of Shaheen 3 is 22226 Km /h. @Nilgiri . That's way beyond Greenpine / swordfish tracking capability.

About MIRV Ababeel. There is a reason why Pakistan increased the payload compartment diameter to 1.8 meters compared to 1.5 meters for the test of the missile.
The 0.76 cm wide Shaheen-3 warhead fits nearly three times on a 1.8 meter diameter payload fairing of Ababeel.
 
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Yea there is evidence of reduction in warhead size on Pakistani Strategic ballistic missiles. Here it is.
View attachment 376731

Now you can go in denial mode?

Also I never said warheads to be maneuvering at high Mach speed while being spun for stability.
I said a gas generator at the back firing randomly. Such an arrangement already is used on artillery shells . They too are spinning and travelling at supersonic speeds.
It's called base bleed and doesn't need any machinery, just a flat pyrotechnic cartridge at the base. Such an arrangement will randomly increase warhead speed and dodge ABM.
Also Indian ABM depends on Greenpine radar which cannot track anything above Mach 8.8.
The stated reentry speed of Shaheen 3 is 22226 Km /h. @Nilgiri . That's way beyond Greenpine / swordfish tracking capability.

He thinks u are a renouned pakistani nuclear scientist.....:cheers::smitten:
 
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He thinks u are a renouned pakistani nuclear scientist.....:cheers::smitten:
For them clowns like Ajay Shukla , Shiv Aroor and Rajfortyseven are reliable sources in defence matters. So I can be a Nobel prize winner by comparison

Whole scientific community is surprised how IRBM can launch MIRV successfully.

It never been tested any where I don't know any missile below 3000km that is MIRVed
I don't know how Pakistani's scientific community defying Laws of physics
For MIRV dispensing altitude matters not range.
The NOTAM for first test fire of Shaheen-3 was issued for altitude of 692 km. Second test 572 km.
So that's proof enough to what altitude Pakistani missiles go.
From 600+ km or even 500+ km altitude, MIRVs can be successfully dispensed on different targets and all will barge down at very high speeds.
 
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