As conversion row rages on, Adityanath says will go to Aligarh on Christmas

[KingMamba]

What was written above described monotheism perfectly as understood by majority monotheists (Christians), exceptions not withstanding. It was not metaphorical either given the literal interpretation throughout Church's history. Now, Muslims might have a different interpretation but it is not all that different. Allah in Muslims mind is mainly a male and that is how people relate to him. Referring to Allah with a feminine pronoun would have serious consequences, regardless of your trying to explain it away as Arabic grammar.

All conjecture and wild fantasies on your part. First of all how would you, a non Muslim know what the hell goes on in the mind of Muslims? Should I start making claims to know what goes on in the mind of Hindus your response to such an assertion would be a whole lot more angrier.

As for the "serious consequences" that you are imagining, I will have you know that many Muslims have used She for Allah in the past as well without any dire result, not to denote that Allah is a female (because like I previously stated we Muslims believe that we do not know well enough to ascribe or not to ascribe gender to God) but to remind Muslims that we should not think of God in terms of human gender.

Here is one example from a year ago- The 99 Names: Allah is not He or She | Religion Dispatches
"Serious consequences"

 

[Indrani]

All conjecture and wild fantasies on your part. First of all how would you, a non Muslim know what the hell goes on in the mind of Muslims? Should I start making claims to know what goes on in the mind of Hindus your response to such an assertion would be a whole lot more angrier.

As for the "serious consequences" that you are imagining, I will have you know that many Muslims have used She for Allah in the past as well without any dire result, not to denote that Allah is a female (because like I previously stated we Muslims believe that we do not know well enough to ascribe or not to ascribe gender to God) but to remind Muslims that we should not think of God in terms of human gender.

Here is one example from a year ago- The 99 Names: Allah is not He or She | Religion Dispatches
"Serious consequences"

An article explaining Allah is genderless is not an argument for your contention that Allah is not a male in the Muslim's consciousness. If that was so, an article would not be needed for such. Next, the place where the lady says her discourse happened is Indonesia, the most liberal of Muslim countries. A country with a Hindu soul still. Even there, she was called upon for an explanation for her reference and she had to deny she considers Allah a she. So, my point stands.

It is no biggie to know how Muslims associate with God. He is always a Malik and never a Malkin even in Hindi/Urdu. All references about him, no matter what the language is, have always been male.

Also, the author's interpretation of Allah with so much explanation seems like revisionism. She concedes that Arabic-speaking people take gender of "things" literally. Which also proves my point, Allah has always been considered to be endowed with male attributes rather than female attributes. Also, she says people get crazy if she refers to Allah as a she.

 

[KingMamba]

An article explaining Allah is genderless is not an argument for your contention that Allah is not a male in the Muslim's consciousness. If that was so, an article would not be needed for such. Next, the place where the lady says her discourse happened is Indonesia, the most liberal of Muslim countries. A country with a Hindu soul still. Even there, she was called upon for an explanation for her reference and she had to deny she considers Allah a she. So, my point stands.

It is no biggie to know how Muslims associate with God. He is always a Malik and never a Malkin even in Hindi/Urdu. All references about him, no matter what the language is, have always been male.

Also, the author's interpretation of Allah with so much explanation seems like revisionism. She concedes that Arabic-speaking people take gender of "things" literally. Which also proves my point, Allah has always been considered to be endowed with male attributes rather than female attributes. Also, she says people get crazy if she refers to Allah as a she.

Indonesia is not the most liberal of Muslim societies in fact there is a growing downward trend in that regard. That article was but one example, conversations like these happen all the time in mosques. You do not know what is going on in the individual Muslim's consciousness so do not speak for the mind, I am giving you facts from our religion itself. Facts that are agreed on by all Muslim scholars. Btw every Muslim on the forum would say that Allah isn't a male as well, this is something we are taught at a young age. Provided they received some sort of religious teaching at some point in their lives.

Uh that was kind of the point, she was never claiming Allah was female she was trying to remind others that if Allah is referred to as he that does not make Allah a male. Once again a fact that most Muslim scholars concur on.

All references in all languages about him have stated that whether or not he has gender is not something we can decide and like I stated in my original post scholars say that it is ok to refer to Allah as he as long as we do not assume that makes God a male in the way humans are either male or female. Also it is better than referring to God as an it which comes off as disrespectful.

Lmaoo revisionism, first you stated such conversations would lead to serious consequences and now that you learn such talks do actually occur, it must be revisionism.

Uh that was the point of her whole article that people should not take things literally when God is referred to as he. It does not prove your point at all first of all how about you read the rest of what she wrote in that sentence, "they start giving social or anthropological characteristics to inanimate objects". Giving social or anthropological characteristics to things is a human condition (which I mentioned in my first post) that most people engage in to better understand things. It does not mean the table is literally a male or a female but sometimes people will ascribe a characteristic to something that it does not possess. This does not mean Islam regards people's assertion as correct. This also does not mean all people adhere to such habits.

Since I am assuming you read the article you seemed to have missed the part where in the Quran, God is also referred to as we in some instances. This she gives as example to why any reference to God needs to be taken in context and not at face value. Which is again confirmed by most Muslim scholars and can be found on Muslim sites.

God Allah - Why Does Quran Say "We / He"?
Why Does Quran Say "We & He"?

Why does the Quran use "WE" and "HE" in Quran when referring to God (Allah)?

This is a good question and one that Bible readers have also asked about. The term "We" in the Bible and in the Quran is the royal "We" - as an example when the king says, "We decree the following declaration, etc." or, "We are not amused." It does not indicate plural; rather it displays the highest position in the language. English, Persian, Hebrew, Arabic and many languages provide for the usage of "We" for the royal figure. It is helpful to note the same dignity is given to the person being spoken to in English. We say to someone, "You ARE my friend." Yet the person is only one person standing there. Why did we say "ARE" instead of "IS"? The noun "you" is singular and should therefore be associated with a singular verb for the state of being, yet we say, "are." The same is true for the speaker when referring to himself or herself. We say, "I am" and this is also in the royal plural, instead of saying, "I is."

When Allah uses the term "HE" in Quran it is similar to the above answer. The word "He" is used when referring to Allah out of respect, dignity and high status. It would be totally inappropriate to use the word "it" and would not convey the proper understanding of Allah being who Allah is; Alive, Compassionate, Forgiving, Patient, Loving, etc. It is not correct to associate the word "He" with gender, as this would be comparing Allah to the creation, something totally against the teaching of Quran.

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Anyway like I said your understanding of monotheism is a bunch of crock biased by undue hate towards what you deem as "cults" and it would be best served you stick to Hinduism.

 

[Indrani]

Lmaoo revisionism, first you stated such conversations would lead to serious consequences and now that you learn such talks do actually occur, it must be revisionism.

Uh that was the point of her whole article that people should not take things literally when God is referred to as he. It does not prove your point at all first of all how about you read the rest of what she wrote in that sentence, "they start giving social or anthropological characteristics to inanimate objects". Giving social or anthropological characteristics to things is a human condition (which I mentioned in my first post) that most people engage in to better understand things. It does not mean the table is literally a male or a female but sometimes people will ascribe a characteristic to something that it does not possess. This does not mean Islam regards people's assertion as correct. This also does not mean all people adhere to such habits.

The fact that she had to belabor this point to an audience which is presumably Muslim says she is trying to educate Muslims about what Allah is and Allah is not. Now if any people on Earth are fanatical about their religion, then it is Muslims and vast majority of them grow up reading Quran everyday of their lives. It says a lot that she has to educate this crowd about how Allah should be looked at. Which does make it revisionism and not the default understanding of Allah in Muslim world.

Yes, people do give social and anthropological characteristics to inanimate objects and it is a human condition, that is an explanation for how it happened that Allah came to be looked upon as a male in Islam, but it is not an example for it not being the default understanding of Allah.

She also explains people go "crazy" when she refers to Allah as a She rather than a He. Now, how crazy is that crazy and where she pronounced it is not made clear, but obviously it is not something trifle not worth a mention. So serious consequences can be expected.

Finally, this was an argument I picked up from a site, not an islamophobic site by the way, it was just in the comment section. So the word cult came along. Also, another thing is Indians do make the use of cult to refer to many religions and sects even within Hinduism mostly as a group and have not yet caught up with the word having negative connotations in the rest of the world. So my apologies if you were hurt.

 

[Black Widow]

So wtf are you hindus doing in Aligarh?

Forced conversions.

Same what Islam did ... Why?, feeling bad when you are treated with your own medicine???

@Topic: Its not conversion, Its home coming. We are not converting any real Muslim (Arabs). We are just reverting those who has left Hinduism because of some or other issue...

 

[KingMamba]

The fact that she had to belabor this point to an audience which is presumably Muslim says she is trying to educate Muslims about what Allah is and Allah is not. Now if any people on Earth are fanatical about their religion, then it is Muslims and vast majority of them grow up reading Quran everyday of their lives. It says a lot that she has to educate this crowd about how Allah should be looked at. Which does make it revisionism and not the default understanding of Allah in Muslim world.

Yes, people do give social and anthropological characteristics to inanimate objects and it is a human condition, that is an explanation for how it happened that Allah came to be looked upon as a male in Islam, but it is not an example for it not being the default understanding of Allah.

She also explains people go "crazy" when she refers to Allah as a She rather than a He. Now, how crazy is that crazy and where she pronounced it is not made clear, but obviously it is not something trifle not worth a mention. So serious consequences can be expected.

Finally, this was an argument I picked up from a site, not an islamophobic site by the way, it was just in the comment section. So the word cult came along. Also, another thing is Indians do make the use of cult to refer to many religions and sects even within Hinduism mostly as a group and have not yet caught up with the word having negative connotations in the rest of the world. So my apologies if you were hurt.

I gave you the default understanding of Allah through a regular site and a Muslim site. Her purpose was to highlight something some Muslims were doing wrong, It is not revisionism because everything she referenced if already both in the text and supported by all mainstream scholars. Just because she brought it up does not mean it is the default understanding of Islam that she is trying to fix, if that were the case you best believe somebody would have issued a fatwa against her because Islam cannot be "revised", Islam is as it always was and claimed to be. The authors knows this very well.

That being said your bold is utterly incorrect, you are assuming that she is out to educate all Muslims. This is your assumption, she makes it clear she is only educating those who asked her why she used She instead of He. There is no telling who asked her why but there is no chance everybody asked her why. I for one already knew there was nothing wrong with her usage of she and obviously did not waste my time asking her about it. Nowhere does she claim that all Muslims made a big fuss about it, and just because she wrote an article about it does not mean that is the default understanding of Allah in the Muslim world.

Take for example Jesus's role in Islam, it has remained the same for hundreds of years yet Muslims still to date write articles about Jesus's place in Islam. By your logic this must mean Muslims do not know what is Jesus's place hence why articles are being written, and obviously this would be incorrect as even the most non practicing Muslim would know something like this since it is the main contention between Islam and Christianity.

So why are such articles written? The answer is simple to educate Muslims who may not have any other source from where to get information, to educate young Muslims as to the differences between their religion and others, and to educate non-Muslims who may be looking up information about Islam.

I will admit I was angered but I did not respond to you in the same tone because you despite being a hindutva I have always gotten along with. Anyway I gave you to concept of God in Islam as taught since its inception. If you still do not accept it then so be it.

Same what Islam did ... Why?, feeling bad when you are treated with your own medicine???

@Topic: Its not conversion, Its home coming. We are not converting any real Muslim (Arabs). We are just reverting those who has left Hinduism because of some or other issue...

You are in no place to talk about real Muslim or fake Muslim. Only Muslims choose what makes a Muslim not you, stick to Hinduism there you can decide who is Hindu and who is not.

Besides you always say Muslims were barbarians so now you are saying you are giving a taste of their own medicine, so basically you are stooping down to level of barbarian? More power to you.

 

[Black Widow]

You are in no place to talk about real Muslim or fake Muslim. Only Muslims choose what makes a Muslim not you, stick to Hinduism there you can decide who is Hindu and who is not.

Besides you always say Muslims were barbarians so now you are saying you are giving a taste of their own medicine, so basically you are stooping down to level of barbarian? More power to you.

Why you have only patent to Declare true Muslim? Remember Declaring Ahmedi and Shia non-Muslim??

The truth hurts, Indian Muslims are Hindu-Muslim. They are not Arabic-Muslim. And everyone is Hindu, no one in Indian subcontinent is non-Hindu. Some have lost there way, soon they will come back.

I didn't say Muslims are barbarian, But most Muslim gang-leaders (Baboor, Kasims, Goris) were Barbaric terrorists.. Even today Khaleefa Bagdadi is also cruel animal...

But ppl like you and other Muslim brothers (India and Pakistan) are good ppl.. I don have any issue with you ppl.

 

[A.Rafay]

Same what Islam did ... Why?, feeling bad when you are treated with your own medicine???

@Topic: Its not conversion, Its home coming. We are not converting any real Muslim (Arabs). We are just reverting those who has left Hinduism because of some or other issue...

Arabs are real Muslims joke of the century! !!!

 

[KingMamba]

Why you have only patent to Declare true Muslim? Remember Declaring Ahmedi and Shia non-Muslim??

The truth hurts, Indian Muslims are Hindu-Muslim. They are not Arabic-Muslim. And everyone is Hindu, no one in Indian subcontinent is non-Hindu. Some have lost there way, soon they will come back.

I didn't say Muslims are barbarian, But most Muslim gang-leaders (Baboor, Kasims, Goris) were Barbaric terrorists.. Even today Khaleefa Bagdadi is also cruel animal...

But ppl like you and other Muslim brothers (India and Pakistan) are good ppl.. I don have any issue with you ppl.

Don't try to play smart I am well aware what you meant by fake Muslim and real Muslims, like I said only Muslims can decide who is fake or real. As we know our faith best we make decisions on this regard, and yes while Ahmadis were declared non-Muslim Shias have never been throughout history. Sunni-Shia differences are political not religious. As for Ahmadis it was Muslims themselves who declared them non-Muslim and in the future if it comes to it, it will be Muslims themselves who will have to rectify this. It is not much different than all other Christian denominations declaring Mormons non Christians. Only Christians themselves can change that.

There are 1.7-2 Billion Muslims in the world by most estimates, there are only 450 Million Arabs of which not all are Muslims and they do not even make up half of the total Muslim population. By your logic most Muslims are fake, a stupid statement that you best not repeat.

You know Hindu is a term given to Bhartis from Persians and later Mughals, it is itself a foreign application on the subcontinent. It was later given religious meaning by the Brits, another bunch of foreigners. What are your thoughts on that?

Also I agree that historically some Muslim rulers and Baghdadi today have behaved like animals, so it would be best you not copy them. Instead of giving Muslims a "taste of their own medicine" and thereby dropping yourself to the level of those you call terrorists.