Are we able to make an aircraft like F-16?

[BetterPakistan]

JF-17 block 3 will be equal to if not better than f-16 block 52+

 

[Oldman1]

and the latest F-17 will also have most advanced AESA radars too (16 and 607 two institutions are competing on this)`in the field of advanced arry radar, there are only two serious players, China and U.S, each has advantage on different aspects of this field````but you can argue on the engine bit```

Yes I can argue on the engine or avionics but you already conclude as you said which is better already.

F-16V is miles ahead of anything in Asia (at large) in similar class.

One thing I would like to add - even China is not willing to [export] its 'most state-of-the-art' products/components to any customer [understandably]. This forced Pakistan to source a few parts from other states for JF-17 Thunder.


That is also a good way to look at things.

As the poster below mentioned that some technology from the F-35 can be applied to the F-16. Course you can't make it stealthy, but improve it with avionics and engines.

F-16V is miles ahead of anything in Asia (at large) in similar class.

And most countries can't afford the 5th generation. Too expensive. Heck Russia is having hard time paying for their new ones. Less than a dozen. And focused on previous generation but with upgrades on SU-35s or SU-30s.

 

[The Accountant]

It depends upon why you think that we need to manufacture 'an aircraft like F-16' and depends upon why in your comparison JF-17 do not fulfil this and in what departments it does not fulfil this?

What are you trying to compare, flying qualities, avionics or specific operational capabilities.

In turn rates it is at par with A/Bs which are better than C/Ds. In sustained turn rates it is almost right along with C/Ds(which by the way are still better than whatever is on offer under the sun) lacking somewhat in thrust which will be corrected in next block..

In range it is a bit less than A/Bs and more less from C/Ds because of CFTs. Russians/Chinese had different operational/tactical concepts and doctrines from west. But this is getting corrected and in newer blocks will be fully taken care of.

In avionics, in terms of man to machine interface it is where we wanted it to be.. based on our experience with F-16s as well as ROSE mirages. Now in terms of sensors, radar wise it is near to APG-68 in AA modes if not fully equal, SAR is where C/Ds are better. Important thing is that it can handle all threats which our enemy can throw at us. With AESA in next block it will be superior. In terms of targeting pod, we have integrated a very good pod. It may not be equal in some modes with Sniper but does it job well.

It is fully networked and is geared to provide a good operational picture from different sensors.

It stands fine in short as well as medium range AA combat against what our enemy can throw at us. SD-10s are finely tuned to our experience with AMRAAMs and are geared to handle the threats we can face.
In different AG modes, it is not equivalent but getting there.. In Anti-shipping, it is actually better with better ranged weapons at hands. In SEAD, it has a very good RWR and integrated with MARs. Now with a better pod, and better PGBs it is also becoming comparable in CAS and interdiction.

Important thing is that we have to get out of this habit of salivating for each new and shinny toy. F-16 when it started was just a day fighter and a light weight fighter with about same weight, payload, and thrust as JF-17. The earlier prototypes and A/Bs were actually better in VWR combat than latter heavier C/Ds. It took that a lot of time and effort to be where they are as excellent multi-role fighters but resulted in becoming heavier. JF-17 is a good platform to build upon both for AA and AG operations, it has shown all the promise to be an excellent work horse for us.

I think besides, thrust and speed, the only area where JF17 is significantly behind viper is overall EW package (vs blk 52) ... thunder and for that matter China is also much more behind in comparison to US in EW suite and engine tech ...

 

[ziaulislam]

If JF-17 would have been better than F-16, PAF wouldn't have been desperate to lay it's hand on F-16. US is by far the most technological advanced nation on the planet. It will still take a decade I believe for others to catch up with them.

PAF is not desperate, facts speak for them selves.
where as PAF refused to pay more for f-16s (200 Million was cheaper than thunder for 8 AC) it easily paid up same amount for zulu gunships, the reason is very simple, f-16 is not worth 100M any more.

Remember f-16 is available to Pakistan anytime, even the congress told that if pakistan PAF from its own pockets it can buy as much as it wants, if PAF wants it can easily buy as much as it wants but PAF doesn't believe buying f-16 for 100M is worth the price even though its a very good price for a competitive 4.5 gen AC but with Block 3 thunder on the horizon its not worth it

now refurbished f-16s or ones that are subsidized are a different story, because they can act as an excellent stop gap fighter for next 20 years at price nearly equal to thunder

 

[el nino]

PAF is not desperate, facts speak for them selves.
where as PAF refused to pay more for f-16s (200 Million was cheaper than thunder for 8 AC) it easily paid up same amount for zulu gunships, the reason is very simple, f-16 is not worth 100M any more.

Remember f-16 is available to Pakistan anytime, even the congress told that if pakistan PAF from its own pockets it can buy as much as it wants, if PAF wants it can easily buy as much as it wants but PAF doesn't believe buying f-16 for 100M is worth the price even though its a very good price for a competitive 4.5 gen AC but with Block 3 thunder on the horizon its not worth it

now refurbished f-16s or ones that are subsidized are a different story, because so they can act as an excellent stop gap fighter for next 20 years at price nearly equal to thunder

There is reason why the chinease have built their air power on flankers and J10 both of which cost twice the cost of the thunders.

It does not offer the same effective air power as J11,0r J10.

Pakistan cannot operate or buy large nos. Of hi end expensive fighters be it block 52 J11or J10.

Thunder is correct choice
Thunder is realistic option

But it's no f16 period

 

[Fireurimagination]

PAF is not desperate, facts speak for them selves.
where as PAF refused to pay more for f-16s (200 Million was cheaper than thunder for 8 AC) it easily paid up same amount for zulu gunships, the reason is very simple, f-16 is not worth 100M any more.

Remember f-16 is available to Pakistan anytime, even the congress told that if pakistan PAF from its own pockets it can buy as much as it wants, if PAF wants it can easily buy as much as it wants but PAF doesn't believe buying f-16 for 100M is worth the price even though its a very good price for a competitive 4.5 gen AC but with Block 3 thunder on the horizon its not worth it

now refurbished f-16s or ones that are subsidized are a different story, because they can act as an excellent stop gap fighter for next 20 years at price nearly equal to thunder

The problem then was price, you wanted them subsidies and US said that you have to pay full. Thus PAF is now hunting for used old-generation F-16s instead of brand-new latest J-17s.

 

[Sinnerman108]

The problem then was price, you wanted them subsidies and US said that you have to pay full. Thus PAF is now hunting for used old-generation F-16s instead of brand-new latest J-17s.

The problem was NOT the price; the problem was US and threat of sanctions.
PAF wanted to get the F-16 so long as they were subsidized;
but didn't want to invest in something in the long run that may be blocked.

there is a subtle difference between the two.

I can tell you that PAF is happy with Jf17, and it's subsequent development / improvements efforts.
They will not go for another plane in that segment of the airforce.

They will invest in the next gen only now be that with the Turks or with China, or someone else.

Here read the report on this thread.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-jf-17b-could-be-the-foundation-of-the-block-iii.503130/

 

[Fireurimagination]

The problem was NOT the price; the problem was US and threat of sanctions.
PAF wanted to get the F-16 so long as they were subsidized;
but didn't want to invest in something in the long run that may be blocked.

there is a subtle difference between the two.

I can tell you that PAF is happy with Jf17, and it's subsequent development / improvements efforts.
They will not go for another plane in that segment of the airforce.

They will invest in the next gen only now be that with the Turks or with China, or someone else.

Here read the report on this thread.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-jf-17b-could-be-the-foundation-of-the-block-iii.503130/

After the US deal couldn't materialize PAF wanted to buy used F-16 jets from Jordan, now these planes were Block 30 why would you want to buy a old-generation F-16 when you have option of brand-new latest J-17s? Even as you mentioned that F-16s are prone to sanctions still PAF wants them even older generations one over the J-17s. In fact PAF got used F-16s (Block-15) over brand new J-17s in the past

Pakistan may buy used F-16 jets from Jordan
Pakistan Purchases F-16s From Jordan

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

There is reason why the chinease have built their air power on flankers and J10 both of which cost twice the cost of the thunders.

It does not offer the same effective air power as J11,0r J10.

Pakistan cannot operate or buy large nos. Of hi end expensive fighters be it block 52 J11or J10.

Thunder is correct choice
Thunder is realistic option

But it's no f16 period

So says the same people who claimed that Pakistan would NEVER EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance.........lol........lol......

indianonics and indianisms with regards to Pakistan NEVER EVER come true.......

After the US deal couldn't materialize PAF wanted to buy used F-16 jets from Jordan, now these planes were Block 30 why would you want to buy a old-generation F-16 when you have option of brand-new latest J-17s? Even as you mentioned that F-16s are prone to sanctions still PAF wants them even older generations one over the J-17s. In fact PAF got used F-16s (Block-15) over brand new J-17s in the past

Pakistan may buy used F-16 jets from Jordan
Pakistan Purchases F-16s From Jordan

It's all good. I don't care what Pakistan gets or what anyone thinks. Advanced or not. As long as our enemy who intends to destroy our nation & race remains powerless to do anything to us that's all that matters.

 

[Fledgingwings]

With That technology and money yes We are.if not then JF17 block III would be somewhere near competitor.

 

[UKBengali]

No Pakistan cannot build an F-16 by itself.

The JF-17 is pretty much a Chinese/Russian aircraft as all the most important components like radar, missiles and engine are not Pakistani.

If Pakistan keeps at the JF-17 and goes further with another aircraft, then many decades from now it may be in position to make everything bar the engine, but I am not hopeful as it's civilian economy is not likely to reach the level to support the advanced manufacturing techniques to produce a world-class air-frame and avionics.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

and the latest F-17 will also have most advanced AESA radars too (16 and 607 two institutions are competing on this)`in the field of advanced arry radar, there are only two serious players, China and U.S, each has advantage on different aspects of this field````but you can argue on the engine bit```


PAF would probably be the first to have 5th gen fighter in the region, if India is not buying F-35````````hope that project will go well``````````I can only say this much

Disregarding

• Selex (Gripen, Eurofighter)
• Thales (Rafale)
• SAAB (which has GaN AESA in production)
• Russians

looks like an amateur keyboard warrior in action...

 

[UKBengali]

Disregarding

• Selex (Gripen, Eurofighter)
• Thales (Rafale)
• SAAB (which has GaN AESA in production)
• Russians

looks like an amateur keyboard warrior in action...

I dont think he is incorrect to be honest. Not saying that the others in the list are not advanced but the Chinese have far more experience in producing AESA radars.

Look at the amount of experience that China has in producing AESA radars:

1. KJ-2000 AWACS
2. Type-052C and 052D destroyers
3. HQ-9 SAM
4. J-10C fighter
5. J-11D fighter
6. J-20 fighter

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I dont think he is incorrect to be honest. Not saying that the others in the list are not advanced but the Chinese have far more experience in producing AESA radars.

Look at the amount of experience that China has in producing AESA radars:

1. KJ-2000 AWACS
2. Type-052C and 052D destroyers
3. HQ-9 SAM
4. J-10C fighter
5. J-11D fighter
6. J-20 fighter

Quoting SAAB:

"With 60 years of experience at the forefront of radar design, Saab is one of the world’s leading radar suppliers with surface and airborne systems in operational service in more than 30 countries worldwide.

We have more than 30 years of AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar design experience starting with our Erieye AEW&C system; the first of its kind to use AESA technology. Last year we expanded our surface radar portfolio introducing five all-new AESA radar variants for land and sea. Development of Saab’s fighter radars began in the 1950s and since then we have built thousands of radars for several different fighter types. Now Saab has applied the very latest in AESA technology, using the most modern materials and design techniques, to produce a next-generation high-performance AESA radar for combat aircraft

The radar business is a strategic element of Saab and we are constantly developing new radar systems with the latest technology. At ADEX we are exhibiting our latest contribution in the airborne segment; a new AESA fighter radar addressing the Korean KF-X programme, but with many other applications also. Through its scalable design Saab’s radar is suitable for new and emerging fighter designs, and could also be a crucial element of a mid-life update for other aircraft."

No, he is not correct...

 

[UKBengali]

Quoting SAAB:

"With 60 years of experience at the forefront of radar design, Saab is one of the world’s leading radar suppliers with surface and airborne systems in operational service in more than 30 countries worldwide.

We have more than 30 years of AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar design experience starting with our Erieye AEW&C system; the first of its kind to use AESA technology. Last year we expanded our surface radar portfolio introducing five all-new AESA radar variants for land and sea. Development of Saab’s fighter radars began in the 1950s and since then we have built thousands of radars for several different fighter types. Now Saab has applied the very latest in AESA technology, using the most modern materials and design techniques, to produce a next-generation high-performance AESA radar for combat aircraft

The radar business is a strategic element of Saab and we are constantly developing new radar systems with the latest technology. At ADEX we are exhibiting our latest contribution in the airborne segment; a new AESA fighter radar addressing the Korean KF-X programme, but with many other applications also. Through its scalable design Saab’s radar is suitable for new and emerging fighter designs, and could also be a crucial element of a mid-life update for other aircraft."

No, he is not correct...

Err, I would take China's greater experience in AESA radars over Saab's 60 years in the radar field.

China has been in the radar business for 50 years now and has far, far greater funds that Saab can even dream of.

I think you are being nationalistic here rather than looking at it from a neutral perspective.