Arab tyrants better for Israel

[Serpentine]

If you think this way then all your Arab Geo-political interests will NOT be achieved. Iraq is very important for Sunni Arabs especially considering the state of the Arab world today. Your identity will also be threatened, tomorrow you'll see what's going to happen to Bahrain and elsewhere. The problem is some of these Arabs who consider themselves 'Shia' don't want to identify with Muslims or Muslim history. They see a lot of our ancestors as invaders of Persia and people misleading Islam. This means they will keep struggling to restore their identity under the pretext of a false man made sect.

I don't think as one person, you are in a position to judge who is on the right path or not, otherwise, all people would end up blowing up each other because of heresy, exactly what ISIS terrorists are doing in Anbar and other parts of Iraq. Take in mind that they might also call your religion or sect a man made one, so this is not how it's going to work. Let's just respect others beliefs and don't play the extremists' game.

At the end, it's only Iraqis who will decide their fate, whether Shia or Sunni, and foreigners should not have anything to do with it.

 

[al-Hasani]

You don't see the point. A Shia today is something very different than before. The Shia in the past were regular Muslims with political differences. Shism was never a religion nor a sect. Later it was created, and it's a threat to Islam and Arabs. Islam is very clear, yet they do the same as every other modern sect and say it is incomplete. This is a lie, therefore any arguments they make today are transgressing and oppression against Islam. What is true is true, what is false is false. They keep promoting false things in order to distance themselves from Sunni's(Arabs). It's corruption of religion, we've already gone over every argument with them they make. There's no justification for a man made ideology to exist from an Islamic POV. There is a justification for those who believe in their ideology.

Civil strife always existed in our history, whether it was with Ali(RA) or Salah Al Din. If anything, hadith says it will blow out of proportion near the end times. The problem is there isn't a religious debate. So what's the excuse for accepting this ideology? We will always have problems if it stays this way. And they don't get along as you say, there's many problems. We don't need to kill each other. We Arab Sunni's need to preserve Islam and guard our interests.



I get your point from a demographic POV.

The question can also be asked this way: Is the Sunni the same today as he once was? The tiny minority of Sunnis and Shias deeply engaged in that sectarian conflict (on the ground) do not strike me as people representing each group.

If we are honest then the theological differences are not that big and whether we like it or not then both Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims believe in the same religion. There is really little that sets us apart. I am not sure what Shias that you have encountered in your real life or seen on the internet (where anyone can make a claim) but the Shias I know (Saudi Arabian, Iraqi, Yemeni) are as Arab as any other Arab regardless of religion or political views.

The problematic bunch are those tiny, tiny number of traitors who rather have their allegiance to a theocratic regime like that of Iran rather than that of their own country. Sunnis and Shias in the Arab world really did not have many problems historically. It's all blown up due to the geopolitical events in the ME since the Iraqi Invasion in 2003.

I have no doubt in my mind that 80% of all Arabs (pre 2003) did not even know the difference between Sunni and Shia. Your average Joe surely did not know.

You have probably just encountered some extreme Shias from Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan or whatever. Most Shia Arabs, aside from a few hardcore ones in Lebanon and mainly Southern Iraq, do not have such views.

Also Shia only make up 10% of all the 1.6 million Muslims. In the Arab world they are a small minority. It's not like they are in a position to be "threatening" Islam or Arabs. I am only talking about the Shia Arabs here (vast majority of them).

Also I am not sure what the Farsi users are doing here? They have noting to do with internal Arab issues let alone Iraq nor do Arab Shias need them as their spokesmen or defenders contrary what some of them think. Ask any regular Iraqi Shia Arab.

So overall I respectfully disagree here.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Also I am not sure what the Farsi users are doing here? They have noting to do with internal Arab issues let alone Iraq nor do Arab Shias need them as their spokesmen or defenders contrary what some of them think. Ask any regular Iraqi Shia Arab.

As you can see in the first post of the thread, I was invited here by Hazzy.

 

[Falcon29]

The question can also be asked this way: Is the Sunni the same today as he once was? The tiny minority of Sunnis and Shias deeply engaged in that sectarian conflict (on the ground) do not strike me as people representing each group.

If we are honest then the theological differences are not that big and whether we like it or not then both Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims believe in the same religion. There is really little that sets us apart. I am not sure what Shias that you have encountered in your real life or seen on the internet (where anyone can make a claim) but the Shias I know (Saudi Arabian, Iraqi, Yemeni) are as Arab as any other Arab regardless of religion or political views.

The problematic bunch are those tiny, tiny number of traitors who rather have their allegiance to a theocratic regime like that of Iran rather than that of their own country.Sunni and Shias really did not have many problems historically. It's all blown up due to the geopolitical events in the ME since the Iraqi Invasion in 2003.

I have no doubt in my mind that 80% of all Arabs (pre 2003) did not even know the difference between Sunni and Shia. Your average Joe surely did not know.

You have probably just encountered some extreme Shias from Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan or whatever. Most Shia Arabs, aside from a few hardcore ones in Lebanon and mainly Southern Iraq, do not have such views.

Also Shia only make up 10% of all the 1.6 million Muslims. In the Arab world they are a small minority. It's not like they are in a position to be "threatening" Islam or Arabs. I am only talking about the Shia Arabs here (vast majority of them).
I respectfully disagree here.

I don't need to encounter anybody, being Arab is less important than being Muslim. When you have anybody, Arab or not prostituting our females, cursing our Prophet's wife and companions, worshiping one man, committing shirk, telling us our whole history was a lie and our Caliphs were unjust, telling us we don't understand our religion properly then you have a big problem. Saudi's for that matter don't care since they rather have no problems. Yeah sure, we can co-exist. Keep co-existing and see how far that's going to take us. Our history will be erased and our leaders will be made liars. The worst part of it is there isn't any religious debate. We win every single religious debate and we speak the truth. Yet they insist on making things permissible that aren't. They want to be different from Muslims, as if we're their enemy and they're foreign to us. The only reason they argue with us over religion is to distance themselves from almost all Muslims and companions of the Prophet(SAW). This is a huge problem.

If you believe their story has an credibility to it, you might as well argue Islam as a religion is a lie. There is no divinity to Islam if we took their narrative.

Of course we did better in co-existing in the past. Hezbollah tried also opening bridges with the Sunni world. Until Bashar started misbehaving all that effort Hezbollah has made has gone to waste. Now things are more sectarian as communities. As individuals we can get along.

I don't want to see this shit anywhere in the Arab world:

 

[al-Hasani]

As you can see in the first post of the thread, I was invited here by Hazzy.

Fair enough. I just have noticed that Iranian users are quick to discuss internal Arab matters and being patronizing to a annoying degree. Shia Arabs have nothing to do with Iran. They are perfectly capable of representing themselves without necessarily joining the Iranian Mullah camp. Like Hazzy implied and some others do. The Shias, including the Arab ones, still pray towards Makkah, still consider Makkah and Madinah (last time I checked) as their two most holy sites and their remaining revered areas are located in either Southern Iraq (Arab land) or Syria aside from shrines in Iran and elsewhere. And they still regard themselves as Arabs, speak Arabic, adhere to Arab culture, live in Arab countries. Well because they are Arab. I would not change if I became Shia tomorrow.

 

[Falcon29]

As you can see in the first post of the thread, I was invited here by Hazzy.

I wanted Iranians to see the perspective on Syria.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Fair enough. I just have noticed that Iranian users are quick to discuss internal Arab matters and being patronizing to a annoying degree. Shia Arabs have nothing to do with Iran. They are perfectly capable of representing themselves without necessarily joining the Iranian Mullah camp. Like Hazzy implied and some others do. The Shias, including the Arab ones, still pray towards Makkah, still consider Makkah and Madinah (last time I checked) as their two most holy sites and their remaining revered areas are located in either Southern Iraq (Arab land) or Syria aside from shrines in Iran and elsewhere. And they still regard themselves as Arabs, speak Arabic, adhere to Arab culture, live in Arab countries. Well because they are Arab. I would not change if I became Shia tomorrow.

Dont know why you are being so on the defence.
Again, I was invited to the thread.

 

[al-Hasani]

I don't need to encounter anybody, being Arab is less important than being Muslim. When you have anybody, Arab or not prostituting our females, cursing our Prophet's wife and companions, worshiping one man, committing shirk, telling us our whole history was a lie and our Caliphs were unjust, telling us we don't understand our religion properly then you have a big problem. Saudi's for that matter don't care since they rather have no problems. Yeah sure, we can co-exist. Keep co-existing and see how far that's going to take us. Our history will be erased and our leaders will be made liars. The worst part of it is there isn't any religious debate. We win every single religious debate and we speak the truth. Yet they insist on making things permissible that aren't. They want to be different from Muslims, as if we're their enemy and they're foreign to us. The only reason they argue with us over religion is to distance themselves from almost all Muslims and companions of the Prophet(SAW). This is a huge problem.

If you believe their story has an credibility to it, you might as well argue Islam as a religion is a lie. There is no divinity to Islam if we took their narrative.

Of course we did better in co-existing in the past. Hezbollah tried also opening bridges with the Sunni world. Until Bashar started misbehaving all that effort Hezbollah has made has gone to waste. Now things are more sectarian as communities. As individuals we can get along.

I don't want to see this shit anywhere in the Arab world:

I am not discussing from "an Arab viewpoint here". I am just saying that the differences between Sunnis and Shias (theological ones) are very small in the overall picture and certainly not big enough to be engaged in a pathetic sectarian conflict that is more bound in politics than religion.

Why did this conflict not exist pre-1979?

If a Saudi Arabian, an Iraqi, Yemeni, Syrian or whatever turned atheist, Christian, Hindu or whatever I will still regard him as a fellow Arab. That's all I am trying to say.

It's not the majority that do all that. Come on.

I do not see how they are a threat since there are so few of them.

I am of the opinion that people can believe in what they want. If they want to be Shia then let them be that. Most of the Islamic clerics, including Sunni ones obviously, have declared Shias as Muslims and that has been the viewpoint of the vast majority of all Sunni Muslims, Caliphates etc. in Islamic history.

Shias are allowed to make umrah and perform hajj in Makkah and Madinah as any other Muslims.

What is the alternative? To hate another brother or sister because they belong to a slightly different sect from the same religion? Where is the progress? It is worth it? When will the violence then stop?

My conclusion is that it is not worth it. Let people be Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims if that is what they wish to. You cannot force people. We live in 2014. Shias can research their own sect by themselves or ask learned people and come to a conclusion vice versa Sunnis.

 

[Falcon29]

I don't think as one person, you are in a position to judge who is on the right path or not, otherwise, all people would end up blowing up each other because of heresy, exactly what ISIS terrorists are doing in Anbar and other parts of Iraq. Take in mind that they might also call your religion or sect a man made one, so this is not how it's going to work. Let's just respect others beliefs and don't play the extremists' game.

At the end, it's only Iraqis who will decide their fate, whether Shia or Sunni, and foreigners should not have anything to do with it.

Sorry, it's not about me as a person. There is Islam, then there is man made ideologies. I don't belong to a sect, unfortunately since some Muslims began creating sects we began belonging to a sect. I follow the Quran and Sunnah. That's it, that's what makes you a Muslim. Nobody can tell me my sect is 'man made' since we follow Islam. Everything in our religion tells us the Shia sect is wrong. We've had every debate over this with religious scholars. There's simply no argument here.

And no, when push comes to shove of course we get to this 'respect other people's beliefs' thing. That would be cute if we were Christians or Jews who believed God is a lie and religion is man made. But, we don't, we sincerely believe in God and Islam. Therefore, we aren't going to accept anything we don't consider a belief as far as it goes for our religion. And I'm not into your nationality argument either, we need to take matters into our hands as preserving our religion is more important.

 

[Malik Alashter]

Bullshit, Shia terrorist hate Sunnis.

You really peace of joke Shia terrorist can you show me one shia group of terrorism?.

 

[Falcon29]

I am not discussing from "an Arab viewpoint here". I am just saying that the differences between Sunnis and Shias (theological ones) are very small in the overall picture and certainly not big enough to be engaged in a pathetic sectarian conflict that is more bound in politics than religion.

Why did this conflict not exist pre-1979?

If a Saudi Arabian, an Iraqi, Yemeni, Syrian or whatever turned atheist, Christian, Hindu or whatever I will still regard him as a fellow Arab. That's all I am trying to say.

It's not the majority that do all that. Come on.

I do not see how they are a threat since there are so few of them.

I am of the opinion that people can believe in what they want. If they want to be Shia then let them be that. Most of the Islamic clerics, including Sunni ones obviously, have declared Shias as Muslims and that has been the viewpoint of the vast majority of all Sunni Muslims, Caliphates etc. in Islamic history.

Shias are allowed to make umrah and perform hajj in Makkah and Madinah as any other Muslims.

What is the alternative? To hate another brother or sister because they belong to a slightly different sect from the same religion? Where is the progress? It is worth it? When will the violence then stop?

My conclusion is that it is not worth it. Let people be Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims if that is what they wish to. You cannot force people. We live in 2014. Shias can research their own sect by themselves or ask learned people and come to a conclusion vice versa Sunnis.

It's still your opinion Hasani, it doesn't have a basis in religious affairs. You look at things from a modern perspective. If we look at things from an Islamic perspective we can't accept these things just as our ancestors didn't.

We don't need violence from a larger perspective. We need to inform people urgently, or else we're going to lost majority in our nations. Violence is necessary in some areas of the region since we are left with no choice.

Do I consider them Muslims? For some of them, yeah sure I do. And for some I don't, there's clearly something wrong when you're being arrogant and refusing to accept the reality. If they had an religious argument then we'd accept their right to argue for their ideology. However, they insist on the same stuff we keep refuting and it's based off of deliberate lies. I myself one time considered the sect, after I read about it and their arguments made I realized this is something very odd. Ever since I considered looking at their sect I've disliked it even more.

We have too many things to lose if we continue to allow things to go as they are.

 

[al-Hasani]

You really peace of joke Shia terrorist can you show me one shia group of terrorism?.

Are you joking? How about just looking towards Lebanon, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan or especially Iraq? You know during the sectarian height back in 2006-2007 where thousands of Iraqi Sunni Arabs were murdered by dozens of Shia terrorist groups and armed gangs. Trying to claim differently is a joke.

You might have heard about this gentleman's name before:

أبو درع



Or this one:



Both free men today and the latter was even an active part of the Iraqi political scene despite being a well-known terrorist and mass-murderer.

Also terrorists do not have a religion since they do not follow a religion. Especially not Islam.

It's still your opinion Hasani, it doesn't have a basis in religious affairs. You look at things from a modern perspective. If we look at things from an Islamic perspective we can't accept these things just as our ancestors didn't.

We don't need violence from a larger perspective. We need to inform people urgently, or else we're going to lost majority in our nations. Violence is necessary in some areas of the region since we are left with no choice.

Do I consider them Muslims? For some of them, yeah sure I do. And for some I don't, there's clearly something wrong when you're being arrogant and refusing to accept the reality. If they had an religious argument then we'd accept their right to argue for their ideology. However, they insist on the same stuff we keep refuting and it's based off of deliberate lies. I myself one time considered the sect, after I read about it and their arguments made I realized this is something very odd. Ever since I considered looking at their sect I've disliked it even more.

We have too many things to lose if we continue to allow things to go as they are.

Of course as a Sunni Muslim I do not agree with some exclusively Shia teachings but that does not mean that I do not regard them as Muslims. There is a difference here in my view.

Our ancestors did not define themselves as Sunni or Shia either. Just Muslims. We should return to that.

Also you should know that there are many differences among Shias. The Shias in Yemen (Zaydi) are more or less identical to Sunni Muslims especially of the Shafi'i fiqh. It's the Iranian Mullah theocracy supporters (mainly Iranians) that have made a mockery out of their sect and who have less to do with Islam by their actions. That I agree with.

But your ordinary Shia Arab that follows everything equally as an Sunni Arab aside from maybe the former celebrating Muharram or attending Husseiniyas?

 

[Falcon29]

You really peace of joke Shia terrorist can you show me one shia group of terrorism?.

We should return to that.

Exactly, and we can't return to that if Shia keep insisting on their ways.

But your ordinary Shia Arab that follows everything equally as an Sunni Arab aside from maybe the former celebrating Muharram or attending Husseiniyas?

Is that really the only difference? I don't think so.

My points is there's no reason for that sect to exist. If somebody follows it then that mean's they're up to something.

 

[al-Hasani]

Exactly, and we can't return to that if Shia keep insisting on their ways.



Is that really the only difference? I don't think so.

My points is there's no reason for that sect to exist. If somebody follows it then that mean's they're up to something.

That's the only difference that I have noticed. What's the other main differences aside from historical disagreements that are 1400 years old? Mainly in connection to the succession of the Caliphate?
We should make a clear distinction between your ordinary Shia Arab and that tiny, tiny treacherous minority that are causing problems and who are indeed a problem that must be dealt with. Equally as some of the so-called Sunni Arabs who are causing trouble. We know who they are.

 

[Falcon29]

@Malik Alashter

These are Muslims right?

‫عذاب في سوريا‬‎ - YouTube