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Analysis on the impact of China-India debacle

No credible scientist say virus come from China.

World should send China a thank you note for discovering it.

Indian full of hate, and anti humanity. Not grateful.

Why should I care of USA?
why bring USA into this discussion?
Chinese regime just made things worse for themselves and the world, in the middle of pandemic they came towards Indian borders too.
 
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I don't know; with the new Mod team in place, there is more and more positive posting going on.

Some of us still suffer; I suspect that is due to an overhang. Whether it can be resolved or not is moot; one prominent member concerned has already started minimising his presence here, and that is a pity. But then so did I, at one stage.
Unfortunately, my experience was different. When I decided to drop in the border crisis was at its peak and I saw mindless trolling only. I am missing a lot of members I respect from my heart. Niaz sahab, Hellfire, Oscar..Bang Galore is long missing. But Its glad to see you back too:-) I am yet to read your recent posts in someother thread I have kept for reading later.
 
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Why should I care of USA?
why bring USA into this discussion?
Chinese regime just made things worse for themselves and the world, in the middle of pandemic they came towards Indian borders too.

That is diversion.

Chinese members are still to accept that there is such widespread anger against the country and its leadership.

No credible scientist say virus come from China.

World should send China a thank you note for discovering it.

Indian full of hate, and anti humanity. Not grateful.

It isn't about India. Don't fool yourselves.
 
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No credible scientist say virus come from China.

World should send China a thank you note for discovering it.

Indian full of hate, and anti humanity. Not grateful.

World should give an award for china for manipulating WHO and there by misleading the world that covid will not spread from human to humans.
Also we should give an award to the online chinese troll army for singing praises on CPC while the world is suffering from pandemic.

Regarding hatred, china also said that other countries are using racism against chinese while chinese from hubei are transiting through airports all over the world.

Also china banned people from other countries as soon as the situation in wuhan came under control.
 
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Why not an award for US for quiting WHO, and running the world highest fatalities and cases of COVID19?

World should give an award for china for manipulating WHO and there by misleading the world that covid will not spread from human to humans.
Also we should give an award to the online chinese troll army for singing praises on CPC while the world is suffering from pandemic.
 
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Unfortunately, my experience was different. When I decided to drop in the border crisis was at its peak and I saw mindless trolling only. I am missing a lot of members I respect from my heart. Niaz sahab, Hellfire, Oscar..Bang Galore is long missing. But Its glad to see you back too:-) I am yet to read your recent posts in someother thread I have kept for reading later.

I wish you would follow the thread India Pakistan Conflict Analysis - Aims, Tactics, Strategy, Results.

You have to read the contributions of PanzerKiel and Cuirassier for sheer class; there are two or three others who contribute from time to time, but it is an exhilarating thread.
 
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India should boycott Chinese goods. Let’s them feel the pain.
 
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Why not an award for US for quiting WHO, and running the world highest fatalities and cases of COVID19?

Why not?

Just so long as you stop thinking that it's about PDF, it's about Indians against Chinese on PDF, and that Chinese people getting beaten to death in Africa is due to Indians on PDF.
 
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Thanks to Chinese intentional spread of virus, the world is suffering and lakhs of people lost their loved ones.
First you start questioning your Govt. how did Hubei people suffered if CPC cared for your people?
Your Govt. do not care about peoples lives for few thousands of dollars or using the situations to get good trade deals. People started realizing the nature of CPC.

Regarding developments in India you have no idea what is happening here.
Mate you had a 2 month headstart, with DNA sequenced and yet you still fail. You closed yer borders etc. So called screened everyone? Failure only comes due to incompetence. Understand?
 
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As China made it a policy of not going to war; indeed, China has never gone to a full scale war with any nation state, therefore, its policy is much more subtle. This is something that India has never truly learnt and therefore, it is my opinion, that we see a military and diplomatic confusion on their part on how to handle the latest debacle.
Thanks for the thoughtful post and you have made some very interesting points. On a couple of things I like to add some thoughts to supplement your discussion.

I don't know China made it a policy of not going to war. We have not seen China go to war many times in the past as it considered war as last resort and its national security and interest are harmed. Things that need to be considered are how to start the war (which is the easiest part), how to win and how to end it. We only went to war when it is the only option to safeguard our national interest and other options, being political or diplomatic means, have been exhausted. Its large military force ensures that there have not been many occasions that the another country has the courage to challenge it openly, with a few exceptions (twice by US, once by Indian and once by Vietnam). On the other hand, China has not been hesitated from using force when it is determined as absolutely necessary. The largest war it fought would be the Korean War, in which US and China, together with Koreans and other nations, fought for 3 years with over 1 million soldiers involved. China had warned US a number of times that it should not push forward to Yalu River and US decided to ignore the warning. War was the only way to get our message cross and guard our national interest and we saw what happened.

The path to power and leadership of world affairs has a new player which has washed away the conventions of old. China rises on its tactful handling of the diplomatic arena and economic strength.

What can this strategy be called? In my view, it’s ruthless pragmatism. China does not engage in ideological balance of power nor does it view economic growth solely from the lens of prosperity alone, all missing in its rival India. It can and has been able to weaponize these two into the strategic level of affairs. For instance, China made heavy handed efforts to curtail corruption and inefficiency of bureaucracy, something that its rival India has not been able to do effectively. Secondly, China has kept its military machine, despite not engaged in any active conflict, well-oiled and adaptive, something that again India has not been able to do so far. Arguably, the next state working on those lines for now seems to be Russia under the Putin leadership.
My humble opinion is that Chinese view of history, is largely based on historical materialism, where economical and technological power of a nation determines its standing and its role in the world. Military power is merely a reflection of economical foundation. I guess this world view is an extension of our tradition as materialist and atheists (in a relative way) in most part of our history. China's path to top should going to be too different from all other nations that were considered as global power in the last 500 years, being Spain, British, and US. Economy was the foundation of their military power and influence.

Going back to the current situation, the tension at LAC was triggered by Indian infrastructure development on their side of LAC. The incident seems to be a tactical/theater level one as opposed to strategic one. The infrastructure development, possibly together with revocation of the special status of Jammu and Kashmir, was seen by China as an material attempt to change the status quo in dispute area. China has made its view really clear that it does not consider the line that was drawn by British unilaterally was valid basis for the boundary between China and India and the area and the dispute area should be resolved via negotiation. The LAC have been at peace for many years but it should not be seen as an acceptance of it being the official boundary. Indian leadership appears to be ignoring the message and good will again. One pattern that interested observer can see from China's response to this kind of behavior is that it will force a new status quo where the country that provokes the situation suffered greater loss from their action.
 
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Thank you for your input, Geralt, the greatest Witcher of them all. I truly appreciate it.
Thanks for the thoughtful post and you have made some very interesting points. On a couple of things I like to add some thoughts to supplement your discussion.

Agreed that's the whole point that I wished to highlight as well. As a former military man myself, it's common knowledge that a fighting force is quite different from a peace time force because what you learn on the field is quite different from what you learn during peacetime practices and exercises. However, China's war machine is quite different in that regard that they have focused heavily on keeping their military geared towards fighting. Which is why they have been able to project policy without getting embroiled into a conflict as heavily as other major powers. I think that is a consistent strategic choice and goes hand in hand with their overall policy.
I don't know China made it a policy of not going to war. We have not seen China go to war many times in the past as it considered war as last resort and its national security and interest are harmed. Things that need to be considered are how to start the war (which is the easiest part), how to win and how to end it. We only went to war when it is the only option to safeguard our national interest and other options, being political or diplomatic means, have been exhausted. Its large military force ensures that there has been many occasions that the another country has the courage to challenge it openly, with a few exceptions (twice by US, once by Indian and once by Vietnam). On the other hand, China has not been hesitated from using force when it is determined as absolutely necessary. The large war it fought would be the Korean War, in which US and China, together with Koreans and other nations, fought for 3 years with over 1 million soldiers involved. China had warned US a number of times that it should not push forward to Yalu River and US decided to ignore the warning. War was the only way to get our message cross and guard our national interest and we saw what happened.

Absolutely but there's a slight note to make here: the USSR had the same philosophical basis as China, at least in the start but the Sino-Soviet split shows that China was willing to follow a more independent policy towards progress, which is why we see a hybridisation of their system and that's based on pragmatism rather than ideology and they've been quite consistent at it.
My humble opinion is that Chinese view of history, is largely based on historical materialism, where economical and technological power of a nation determines its standing and its role in the world. Military power is merely a reflection of economical foundation. I guess this world view is an extension of our tradition as materialist and atheists (in a relative way) in most part of our history. China's path to top should going to be too different from all other nations that were considered as global power in the last 500 years, being Spain, British, and US. Economy was the foundation of their military power and influence.

I agree with your points here but I think there's one more thing to understand here, it's an ongiong situation so far but with the current development it seems that the valley of Kashmir was always a flashpoint between India and Pakistan but now it's going to be India and Pak-China as well. It may to be send a message across that making this a hotzone especially to threaten CPEC would involve higher stakes now for India as India has always tried to make economics a part of their aggressive policy towards its neighbours. However, in that case, China would be directly involved now if that's to happen. Let's see it this way: India has a disproprotinately higher military presence against Pakistan in the region and routinely builds up in the region to threaten Pakistan. Pakistan's economy makes such engagement highly costly to the country. With China involved such actions it makes such a course go into a completely different matrix because geostrategically the CPEC line depends on Kashmir being secure as well. Therefore, I'd see it as both a tactical as well as strategic move.

Going back to the current situation, the tension at LAC was triggered by Indian infrastructure development on their side of LAC. The incident seems to be a tactical/theater level one as opposed to strategic one. The infrastructure development, possibly together with revocation of the special status of Jammu and Kashmir, was seen by China as an material attempt to change the status quo in dispute area. China has made its view really clear that it does not consider the line that was drawn by British unilaterally was valid basis for the boundary between China and India and the area and the dispute area should be resolved via negotiation. The LAC have been at peace for many years but it should not be seen as an acceptance of it being the official boundary. Indian leadership appears to be ignoring the message and good will again. One pattern that interested observer can see from China's response to this kind of behavior is that it will force a new status quo where the country that provokes the situation suffered greater loss from their action.

Brother, the Covid-19 virus has been screened in world over labs and it's quite clear that it's a naturally evolved virus and we've seen similar incidents before with SARS and MERS viruses. The worldwide spread of it isn't surprising because Influenza virus type As are known to have the potential to cause a world wide pandemic. The world didn't take necessary precautions and suffered. It isn't a political issue but a biological one, so I'd appreciate if we don't make it one.
Thanks to Chinese intentional spread of virus, the world is suffering and lakhs of people lost their loved ones.
First you start questioning your Govt. how did Hubei people suffered if CPC cared for your people?
Your Govt. do not care about peoples lives for few thousands of dollars or using the situations to get good trade deals. People started realizing the nature of CPC.

Regarding developments in India you have no idea what is happening here.
 
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The new lens

As the two nations with a billion population each encircle each other with hostile intent and the rest of the world braces for a possible impact it seems that things have changed. Indeed, imagine if this were the case a decade or so ago by this time we would have the great powers of the world step in by now but that’s not the case. Therefore, it is imperative we discuss how these changes have arrived and what do they mean.

Old notions no more?

In the field that studies these phenomena, International Relations, we have two key concepts that would have been important to analyze the situation before: balance of power and power category of a nation-state. The balance of power essentially refers to the maintenance of status-quo; each region has a power distribution amongst nation-states that holds a precarious balance of status-quo and each nation tries to tilt that balance to its advantage but the overall system fights to keep that in check. This is why, if you would read history; you would see shifting alliances, a favorite of mine is to see the European intervention in the Ottoman-Russian affairs: if they would see any one state overpower the other they would switch sides to contain the winner and keep them in perpetual hostility in order to balance them out and maintain the status-quo. The British were masters of this concept.

That brings us to the second concept of power categories: each nation-state is compared to others on various terms such as economics, military prowess, geography etc., and given a rating. The most common one that people are familiar with is the term ‘superpower’, the Cold War saw us having two: the USA and USSR each nation so powerful that it would dominate any other nation except each other and the world was carved up between their spheres of influences.

Thus, it begs the question? Where are they now? Why don’t they intervene in the China-India debacle? Is that not what they do? Where is the USA? Where is NATO?

Are these terminologies gone?

Game changers

India and China for a large part have expanded heavily economically, each in their own manner but are often seen as competitors. Indeed, the impressive growth of these nations in mere decades is quite impressive. However, these two nations are certainly powers but like I stated before, something has changed.

India has always been challenged by its much smaller rival: Pakistan in active as well as cold conflicts and has never been able to dominate its rival. This is why Pakistan has been dubbed a ‘middle power’ or more recently, a challenger state. China to a much lesser extent has been challenged by its rival of Taiwan but never to the extent of India. As China made it a policy of not going to war; indeed, China has never gone to a full scale war with any nation state, therefore, its policy is much more subtle. This is something that India has never truly learnt and therefore, it is my opinion, that we see a military and diplomatic confusion on their part on how to handle the latest debacle.

New age upon us?

The old arbitrators of conflict for various reasons do not wish to engage in conflict management anymore. The Belt and Road Initiative of China is certainly a move that traditionally has been reserved for a superpower but China made sure of not projecting hard power such as military interventions and strong arm diplomatic tactics before it was able to ensure to lay the foundation of the program. Essentially, in a world where military challenges to traditional powers of the Western alliances (US and NATO) has been costly to everyone we see a new trend: active geo-strategic shifts amongst rising powers such as India and China and middle powers such as Turkey and Egypt. It is especially worth noting the recent challenges to Russian might by Turkey but that is for another analysis.

The path to power and leadership of world affairs has a new player which has washed away the conventions of old. China rises on its tactful handling of the diplomatic arena and economic strength.

What can this strategy be called? In my view, it’s ruthless pragmatism. China does not engage in ideological balance of power nor does it view economic growth solely from the lens of prosperity alone, all missing in its rival India. It can and has been able to weaponize these two into the strategic level of affairs. For instance, China made heavy handed efforts to curtail corruption and inefficiency of bureaucracy, something that its rival India has not been able to do effectively. Secondly, China has kept its military machine, despite not engaged in any active conflict, well-oiled and adaptive, something that again India has not been able to do so far. Arguably, the next state working on those lines for now seems to be Russia under the Putin leadership.

Therefore, we are in the middle of a transition into a new age and the conventions of old would not help us understand, appreciate and analyze the upcoming geopolitics of the upcoming era.
Sir,

How would this new age benefit Pakistan ?
I see good days and power projection as well as relevancy in international arena, Your thoughts ?

BTW, Very rightly put, Great Piece, In the past days, I too had similar understanding of the situation and view of it however was mentally disturbed to dive deep into it.
 
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A good observation here. I would agree with this point that why not negotiate with a position of more strength?
The Chinese had always resisted any sort of effort of parmanent demarcation of LAC and reiterated that it should be best preserved for the future generation to decide. The tacit understanding behind this line of thinking is with more economic and military might, they might be in a much stronger burgaining position vis a vis India not in demarcation of borders but in areas where their economic and strategic intetests matter most.

I think it goes a little beyond that with similar population numbers China and India are natural rivals especially with their expansionist economic policies as well. Therefore, the overall strategic game coming over to the region itself makes a lot of sense. The containment of the US intervention as well does so.
Clearly the Chinese does not want an India that speaks against their interests be it OBOR, SCS or in the latest scuffle with the Americans. Neither the unilateral change of status of J&K echoed well in Beijing. For an aspiring super power that wishes to be hyphened with the US every now and then, such act from an weaker neighborhood would simply be perceived as a defiance to its dominance over South Asia.

Agreed, I made this point as well that China has taken a more pragmatic approach towards being adaptable. With India the adaptation process seems to be selective and with the current heavily right-winged BJP it seems to be a step backwards rather than forwards because China seems to have made the changes much before India. I would highly stress the issue of the bureaucracy which both India and Pakistan share; that seems to be holding back a lot of possibilities.

Moreover, regressiveness of the current situation would make it even harder to change, in my opinion.
Problem with India is its enormously pathetic resistance to change, be it military, political or bureaucratic. We need more and more young, honest, educated politicians. You can see for example, Mohua Moitra. What a fireband, eloquent young prospect she has been in recent years. The political system needs a reform, within democratic norms. We have an efficient electoral system and independent judiciary. Only thing we need is sincerity for change.

I think the slow creep of political influence over the Indian military has been the main issue. The higher ups seem to be selected more on their agreement with the current junta rather than hardcore professionalism. Much of the military's focus is on focusing towards Pakistan instead of being able to address Pakistan. I'd say perhaps the Indian Navy is the only exception in the case but the IAF and IA are perhaps not taking the practical steps towards incorporating a Chinese dominated theatre of conflict and it again highlights the overall ineptness of the bureaucratic process. I think that Pakistan circumvents this problem by the military being much more autonomous in the decision making process (let's put politics aside for the moment) whereas India's military needs a similarly minded efficient bureacratic executive to mirror its needs with actions.
Military too needs a long overhaul. Infantry is still to go through intense modernization. Defence procurement is horribly slow, indigenous R & D practically nil. Being an engineer working with different technologies for the same purpose, I know how hectic it is to work with different systems. It badly affects the manpower hour, maintenance cost sky rockets and effective utilization of the overall system deteriorates. Our defence purchases should be more focused, more quick and more indigenous. Fortunately, for the last twenty years or so, after Kargil the thinking pattern of the army has slightly improved. Emphasis has been put on cordination between the forces, acquisitions have been faster.

Precisely, I highlighted this too that China handled this issue with a heavy hand so as not to be an impediment. However, rest of the region has not been able to mirror this process. This seems to be an issue as well but I think much of your nation is not going to make this connection so change here may be much slower.
But we are lagging behind what needs to be done by a huge margin. Corruption has weakened the whole system like a termite. Fund allocated for social development are practically being drained to party funds. The present government's economic policy, even though I am not an economics expert is horrible. Policies like NRC, CAB shows its not a government that is running a country. It looks like a political party with crooked narrow agenda is.

We have to get rid of our old prehistoric mindset. The Chinese dared to do it in the 70's with great conviction and human sacrifices. It is better late than never.I am typing from my mobile. Laptop doesn't work any more. So excuse my typos please.

Sorry to hear about you being disturbed. Always available if help's needed there.

I think that this gives Pakistan some breathing space to re-orient because much of our progress has been impeded with the great threat next door. Over the last two decades we've had had multiple firms and it's been a battle for survival. Now that the Western front is relatively secure, we can focus our attention on clearing further issues internally and focus towards our own economic development. If one were an optimist I'd hope that bureaucratic change may come but knowing how poisonously powerful that sector is, I'd be guarded about it. As CPEC is the flagship of the Belt initiative it's the best time that we use whatever time we have to gear ourselves to gain maximum advantages from it and focus towards being a more stable nation economically so we can counter our threats in a safer and stronger manner.

Thank you for your appreciation.
Sir,

How would this new age benefit Pakistan ?
I see good days and power projection as well as relevancy in international arena, Your thoughts ?

BTW, Very rightly put, Great Piece, In the past days, I too had similar understanding of the situation and view of it however was mentally disturbed to dive deep into it.

Sir ji, I would have loved to elaborate on each point but I thought of being brief first and then expanding in the discussion. Please, take your time, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. You're a gem on PDF.
Dear, thanks for tagging me and thinking of me as someone who can give an opinion on this excellent piece of yours.

I have been reading this for many hours now, but have not been able to crystallize an opinion.....your piece is clutching so many branches at the same time, atleast its difficult for me to respond.....but am following all of it here and will chip in wherever i could.
 
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