American imperialism and ruthlessness masquerading as freedom and democracy.

[Rusty2]

Then why would you encourage haram and facilitate it?

I am doing no such thing and never claimed to. Why did you dishonestly not quote my entire comment?
Once again, I am following the Quran and sunnah much closer than you are. Which in of itself is enough to disregard anything else you say.

Put simply, the sociological conditions for Pakistan are not the same as Japan, Japan's current economic success is dependent on firstly, Japan already being an industrialized power way before it was every Conquered by the US(idk if you know this, but they kind of ruled half of asia(Korea, Manchuria, taiwan phillipines and even entries into south east asia at a time). Secondly much of Japan's(and Korea's) success is dependent on both access to US markets and US investments as a time where it was critical for the US to prop up a force to counter the Soviet/Communist Hegemony that was growing in East Asia. This element in its developmental path cannot be understated. Not to mention, Modern Japan is really a creation of the US(its not unique in that sense, Germany or should I say West Germany is similarly constructed). You can write a book on this, or go read indepth on the phenomena, If you need any primer, I can probably point you in the right direction. You contrast that with what Pakistan inherited and received, and its night and day(Jinnah BTW requested something similar to the Marshall Plan for Pakistan, but Pakistan really wasn't of consequence(atleast until later on) to the US to flood money into or give preferable access.

Literally no one has talked about Japan post ww2. This is you, once again, being dishonest. address my original point. Which was about Japan from 1850 to about 1920. That is the time frame I am talking about. The reason you don't want to talk about Japan from the time frame I have listed is that you know you can't really provide a counter argument. You know this, so you shift the goal post to post ww2 Japan. We can talk about post ww2 Japan, that is not a problem. BUT, just address my point about pre ww2 Japan.

I mean yeah, when met with asinine comments, sometimes that is the only retort, trying to paint me as some sort of Taliban or some shit, without even knowing or inquiring is a bit off putting. Not to mention the lack of understanding of deeper issues whether they be theological or generalized sociological matters.

Asinine? It's only asinine to small minds. You are not alone, all of human history has been filled with small minded people like you. Since you don't have the mental capacity to understand what is being said, you belittle and mock it. No amount of explaining Shakespeare will stop a chimp from howling and throwing feces at you.
So please, instead of throwing feces, either ask for an explanation if you don't understand what is being said. Or bow out and recognize this may not be for you.

It seems you didn't quite understand the context in which I said "You don't know what slavery is.", might I recommend some primer on what I was eluding to. Black Skin, White Masks by the philosopher Frantz Fannon is a good read on some of the phenomena.

Yes, I didn't understand what you were saying. But to be fair, what you said was literally a snide sentence to a complex issue I brough up. It is not my fault you were shit at explaining your point. There was absolutly zero context from you that would have lead me to believe you were referring to Frantz Fannon. But now that you have provided context, I will check it out.

you didn't get the analogy, it was a tongue and cheek retort to your suggestion that "Only way forward is to do what Japan, China, and Korea did." not understand the different sociological phenomena unique to those states, you can't do what they did in the same way, some poor man in africa can't do what Bezos did.

Yeah, that was a bad analogy on your end. Lets move on.

Lol, the fk? see its shit like this is why I don't bother explaining myself in detail, you lack the capacity to understand, and instead respond with imbecilic conjectures.

You literally explained nothing. Hence my comment.
I am willing to have a good will discussion with you, but if your comments are just going to be "lol no"
Then what is the point?
I am willing and happy to expand on what I am saying, if you are willing to engage in good faith and with an open mind.

 

[Goritoes]

It may sound strange, but while yes, that a country and its foundation ideology are distinct, they are inseparable, meaning if you discuss one, you WILL or MUST inevitably discuss the other. As I have often said in the past, ideas needs the human agency to survive and thrive, and a country is the largest and grandest agency any idea can have. We cannot discuss fascism and/or Nazism without thinking of and inevitably talking about Germany, no matter how long ago that dark part of Germany's history. To be fair, we cannot discuss slavery without thinking of and inevitably talking about the US and their Civil War. We cannot discuss Christianity without thinking of and inevitably talking about the Catholic Church, of the good and the bad. In short, we cannot discuss any idea and understand its compelling attractiveness unless we talk about the people that follows it.

We can but than its will be a complete different topic, here we are talking about USA and its moral responsibility of being the sole super power. Ideology transends the borders hence we can not associate that with on particular nation, you mention Fascism and Germany, but you can not solely pin that on Germany because we have Italy there, British are fascist/Racists in their own way, similar to slavery. America was not the only one trading slaves, in fact I even read articles on some African kings were selling their own people to America, its just the society in America highlights it much more than other countries due to its political spectrum/correctness these days.

Not sugarcoating. If you drive and hit a pedestrian, two things: either malice or accident. Which is it?

Can be both at the same time, and In America's case its the both Malice and Accident or as they say necessary intervention, now if USA is making a policy error which hurts its national interests that's fine, but the way USA policies are interconnected with many countries, they get effected by it directly or indirectly.

There are many emigres whose wealth would be the equivalent of the American 'upper middle class', which would make them 'elites' back in their home countries, and yet they chose America. These people are not illiterate rubes. They were educated enough from their birth countries to know how to research the US and reason out why should they emigrate, and they did.

But no country is like America, America is unique with large Population, good buying power and large piece of land, people who are educated and can be considered wealthy in their home countries they move to America for a peaceful life which they seldom gets in their countries, I can give you example of my aunt who was very poor and she used to run a small denim jeans factory out of a very small house with few workers, from her determination she becomes one of the biggest exporter of Denim jeans/Jackets/shirts outside Pakistan, than her son started a business and after many losses he becomes successful, one of her daughter worked for SUPARCO, and yet they all moved to Canada, they can/were living a very luxurious life in Pakistan, have everything but the situation such as extortion calls, got robbed at their own house 2-3 times, have made them move their entire wealth to Canada, one would argue why ? its not that they consider Canada to be morally righteous or anything, they move it because Canada was willing to give the whole family immigration visas and they can move their business there, have a safe life and future for themselves and their grandkids.

Who said anything about 'all good'? That means perfect and I never said America is perfect. I said America is great. If you are perfect, you cannot be great. You are perfect, like God. Like it or not, America, no different than all the countries in the world, is ever on a sliding scale. The US is a great country, and that is good enough for me and many people, now and in the future.

It was a General statement, not particularly means you said it. But I agree from your prospectus USA is a good enough country to live and you been America should be proud off your country, nothing wrong about that. As I mentioned I liked so many things about USA since I moved here and I wish Pakistan adopt these things but I know its not happening anytime soon

So if we know that in many geopolitical situations, there are actors that obviously do not share our values, what choice do we have if we want to achieve certain shared geopolitical goals?

Well I would say do the right thing, but the world is not black and white I understand that, as I mentioned before I am realist. I believe if America does stay neutral in major issues than it would've been better, because America taking sides on any sides makes it unfair for the other side even if they are right.

But the fact that YOU are in the US means those geopolitical expediencies do not matter much. They are more than six degrees of separation from your daily lives. It means you can comfortably criticize the US on the moral plane without experiencing any consequences on the practical plane, so you can still feel good about yourself.

Well and that is one of the things I loved about USA, you can criticize it and its policies or even its President right in front of him, my criticism is not there for anyone/any country because I want to stand on some high moral ground or want to feel good about myself, Of course I am also full of Sh1t too but Its more about how I perceive things from my POV, people are free to disagree.

Justice, Liberty, Equality, and Freedom are very important should you ever have any encounter with the law. You diminish them outside the borders but inflate them inside precisely because they are applicable inside.

Can't disagree with that part.

Then ask yourself how important are those values that according to you, America failed. Are those values important enough that failure to live up to their standards would compel you to leave for your birth country?

Failed on a Macro level, me on a personal level has nothing to do with what values USA failed at, Again me leaving my country was not a decision that was made on what America stands for but a family related decision, Plus my country is even worse when it comes to those values that I want/try to hold dear, so coming to USA was definitely an improvement even on the moral standard.

On the other hand, as a non-citizen, you can say "I am <whatever>" and instantly you are removed from America in their minds no matter how long you have lived in America.

Sorry but I didn't get that part of your post, can you rephrase it ?

So why not leave if America's foreign policies are so morally abhorrent? It is not a 'troll' question but a seriously moral one.

What difference will it make ? if I leave or lets say Millions of Immigrants leave ? Will USA leave ME ? Will USA stop interfering in country's internal politics ? USA literally financed a regime change in Pakistan not long ago, and now its too late for Americans like you to ask anyone to leave because hundreds of thousands of people who comes to USA are directly effected by the war/conflicts which has direct/indirect connection with America, can America take it all back ? Just one example, you most likely know about CIA's role in shaping the F'd up S.American countries and their cartels who screwing up their countries, can USA take that back ? Can USA put Sadaam back in Power or Ghaddafi ? whether they were good or bad, that was not up to USA or anyone to decide, but yet America/west intervene and turned those countries into a sh1t hole and breeding ground for extremism, if USA can fix all the countries it messed up than USA is well within their rights to ask the people to leave and use force if necessary.

 

[hyperman]

I am following the Quran and sunnah

I'm sorry but I don't think you understand usool al fiqh. So I'm not going to bother going into detail as to the contradictions between that and your outlook(or atleast the one I gathered from what you commented). Put simply, that its not possible to simply copy and paste western aesthetics and structures(which have a different set to underpinnings) onto a pakistani canvas, and have it not contradict with the maqasid of the "Quran and sunnah". Thats not to say there aren't overlaps, and things that can be adopted of benifit and there can be debates of cost and benefit analysis on grey areas, but this notion of simply copying and pasting a different framework and expecting that it leads to a panacea cure to Pakistan's problems is a bit foolish. Pakistan has a hundred different problems but they require far more complex solutions, and a far more nuanced approach.

Literally no one has talked about Japan post ww2. This is you, once again, being dishonest. address my original point. Which was about Japan from 1850 to about 1920.

You didn't specify the time period of Japan, you just said Japan and how Pakistan needs to be like Japan, which one presumes you meant modern japan, which again is as a result of post war matters i eluded to earlier. Which is why I said its not that simple, as sociological factors are different.

Anyways I don't see this conversation going anywhere productive on my end, so good day and i'll end it here..

 

[Rusty2]

I'm sorry but I don't think you understand usool al fiqh.

Do you need to "understand" this to be a Muslim?
Is there a governing body who will give you certificates in Usool al Fiah to prove that you are a Muslim?

I'm not going to bother going into detail as to the contradictions between that and your outlook(or atleast the one I gathered from what you commented). Put simply, that its not possible to simply copy and paste western aesthetics and structures(which have a different set to underpinnings) onto a pakistani canvas, and have it not contradict with the maqasid of the "Quran and sunnah". Thats not to say there aren't overlaps, and things that can be adopted of benifit and there can be debates of cost and benefit analysis on grey areas, but this notion of simply copying and pasting a different framework and expecting that it leads to a panacea cure to Pakistan's problems is a bit foolish. Pakistan has a hundred different problems but they require far more complex solutions, and a far more nuanced approach.

Literally no one said the bolded parts. This is once again, you not actually understanding what I said and simply setting up a strawman.
Also, lets hear your solutions to Pakistan's problems. I will critique them in good faith. I have recorded history behind me, I am interested to know what you are basing your arguments on.

You didn't specify the time period of Japan, you just said Japan and how Pakistan needs to be like Japan, which one presumes you meant modern japan, which again is as a result of post war matters i eluded to earlier. Which is why I said its not that simple, as sociological factors are different.

I am sorry, as a person who is learned in history, when I say develop like Japan, I just assume everyone knows I mean 1850s Japan. I sometimes forget that most people have no idea about history.
It makes sense that you assumed post ww2 Japan, as that is the only Japan you know about.

So let me re-phrase. In the 1850s Japan was like most other non-European countries. Pre-industrial with thousands of years of traditions, history, culture and religion. They no less loved their civilization back then, as we do our civilization now. But then the Europeans came and the Japanese looked around and said "what just happened? how did they defeat us so completely?"
Interestingly, every single non European societies had the same thought. The difference is that every other society, Muslim or not said "never mind, Europeans are gone, lets stick our heads in the sand and continue our ways" and we all know where that lead.
Japan, on the other hand come to a different conclusion. They set their ego aside and sent scholars to Europe to learn from them. They studied ALL the different Europeans societies and ideologies. They then adapted what worked for them and disregarded what they did not want. Now this wasn't easy, they literally fought a civil war over this. But the right side one. Fast forward 100 years, while our grandfathers were being used as tissue paper by the British, Japan was able to take on (yes they lost) a super power.
There is much more to say but I hope you are able to understand the underling themes here.

Anyways I don't see this conversation going anywhere productive on my end, so good day and i'll end it here..

If you are openminded, evidence based and willing to engage in good faith, this can be very fruitful. Otherwise you are right. It's up to you on where you want to take this.

 

[R Wing]

Superpower or not, all countries play by the same rules of international geopolitics. Some play it better than others, of course, but that is no reason to get upset.

Actually, there are some countries that don't play by those rules. For example, Pakistan has no clue how to actually deter India and instead thinks appeasement will work! Haha, we are always the exception, and that's why we tend to get screwed.

Clearly, nobody has ever studied realist IR theory in our corridors of power --- or perhaps it's just easier to apply it domestically, which they do quite well.

I disagree.
I think Pakistan has played the game really well. The thing is that our establishment's goals are not it's people's goal.
The establishment wants free money and war tech from outside. To this end, we are actually one of the best players in the game.
The problem is that this is not the goals that are beneficial to the people, which is why we think we are lousy at it.

Rusy bhai, I can't disagree! Institutional and personal goals have been met quite well --- unfortunately, as you point out, they are in contradiction with the common good.

 

[villageidiot]

Because you persisted with your fallacy?

Nope, I think it's because you are a smart man. You understood that I wouldn't waste my time with statistics for someone who doesn't understand something as simple as the fact that wars displace people more than poverty.

Funny thing is, my statement: "Let anyone who wishes the glory work for it" still applies.

Behold, the seeking of glory.

So which one of your favorite dictators shall we test your claims upon first? Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Chavez, Gaddafi, Amin, Zia, or Musharraf, or someone else you care for more than these exemplary dictators?

Please stop projecting. I said no such thing.

It is almost as if your mind is already made up to vilify USA, no matter what, which does not matter one bit. USA will do what USA will do.

You still fixated on the USA? That's a shame. I thought we were having a deep discussion.
Now I am beginning to think you weren't sincere in the discussion trying to defend the USA this whole time.

BTW, I like how you shift between

The USA has nothing to do with it. Its your own mess

and​

The USA does it because it can. USA will watch out for it's interests. You should do the same. Might is right

based on whether you have a retort or not.

The only problem is that this mindset only gives those who control the poor suffering people in their domains a potent reason to needlessly divert the ire towards external factors so that they do not place the blame where it squarely belongs.

The problem is you think in binaries. Just because there is corruption and mismanagement in the 3rd world, the USA (and the west and other global heavyweights by extensions) can not possibly have anything to do with the 3rd world state of affairs. Either/Or.

I recognize both factors. I also don't believe one is bigger than the other. It depends on the 3rd world country. What I am saying is that the beneficiaries of imperialism have no moral authority to judge the 3rd world. Hence my contention, stop telling them not to come to your country if you are gonna to keep blowing up their house, hospitals and schools and kids.

Tell me you myopic without telling me you are myopic.

As for the last sentence, everything.
We all have the same 24hours in a day.
If we spend it policing who is Muslim and who is not, we can't spend it advancing human kind.
The two are directly related.

Wait. I get it now. While people in industrialized societies spend their day productively, i.e on jobs etc, people with 7th century mindset (whatever that means), spend most or all of their 24 hours policing who is Muslim

So, that's what ~200 people in the company I work for do all day long. They are not going through the grind to make an honest living, they are actually play Spot the non-muslim

Got it. Thanks for clearing it up for my myopic a*s.

 

[villageidiot]

These people think that people want to be luddites or something? wtf does "7th century mindset" mean?

Beats me

lol, I suspect they also are likely illiterate regarding understanding of how fiqh works.

I would they don't know the meaning of word fiqh, let alone how it works.

The rest of their generalized jargon is just a ridiculous sociological analysis.

It's lack of original thought is what it is.
White man doing this. White man prosperous. This must be it.

It's also lack of literacy like you said. They don't know that prosperity was a thing before white people became prosperous.

 

[gambit]

The heck did you find that Wolverine reading figure?

Mafex brand. Couple yrs ago about $60. But I doubt you can find this Mafex version for less than $200 today. All I did was posed it with a miniature book and Jim Beam whisky bottle.

 

[Sayfullah]

@gambit

The whole world and universe belongs to Allah.

We will continue coming to USA in large numbers.
We will continue to steal jobs and earn high income in USA.
We will continue to take government benefits and eat your tax dollars.
We will continue to increase our numbers rapidly in USA.
We will continue to spread our culture in USA.
We will continue to convert Americans to Islam.
We will continue to marry American women and convert them to Islam.

We will do all this while hating on American regime.

With the current progress we will one day make USA an Islamic country.

Your government won’t stop the flow of immigrants and your native population will be too busy trying to determine their gender rather than reproducing. USA in the future will be in our hands.

Thanks for already building the economy to our future Islamic country.
@gambit don’t worry, Jizya isn’t that high

 

[zectech]

Chinese support for warmongers, masquerading as the "resistance".

 

[VCheng]

you understood that I wouldn't waste my time with statistics

It is because you do not have any numbers to back up your claims.

Behold, the seeking of glory.

The future long distance marathon winners?

I said no such thing.

Except you preferred dictators over democracy, didn't you? For prosperity, of all things.

You still fixated on the USA? That's a shame. I thought we were having a deep discussion.

I suggest you read the title of the thread again.

BTW, I like how you shift between

The USA has nothing to do with it. Its your own mess

and​

The USA does it because it can. USA will watch out for it's interests. You should do the same. Might is right

What is this "it" you keep mentioning? Could it be that the "it" in the first point is different than the "it" in the second?

Hence my contention, stop telling them not to come to your country if you are gonna to keep blowing up their house, hospitals and schools and kids.

Except that your contention is clearly wrong.

 

[Foinikas]

Mafex brand. Couple yrs ago about $60. But I doubt you can find this Mafex version for less than $200 today. All I did was posed it with a miniature book and Jim Beam whisky bottle.

It's perfect for the bookshelf Nice thinking!

 

[gambit]

We can but than its will be a complete different topic, here we are talking about USA and its moral responsibility of being the sole super power. Ideology transends the borders hence we can not associate that with on particular nation, you mention Fascism and Germany, but you can not solely pin that on Germany because we have Italy there, British are fascist/Racists in their own way, similar to slavery. America was not the only one trading slaves, in fact I even read articles on some African kings were selling their own people to America, its just the society in America highlights it much more than other countries due to its political spectrum/correctness these days.

I disagree. We cannot divorce an ideology from its practitioners, especially its most prominent.

I am not pinning fascism/Nazism on Germany nor slavery on the US. What I am saying is that the moment we tread into ideologies, we inevitably seek out the most (in)famous applicator of it. We cannot discuss Marxism/communism without having the USSR coming to the fore. It is reflexive even though we know that intellectually, Marxism did not came from the Soviets. Karl Marx was German, right?

So yes, while ideology and country are intellectually distinct, the moment we touched on one, we inevitably drag the other into discussion. In my personal life, I have never seen otherwise, from the conservative side and the liberal side. From my American friends to my non-American friends. Similarly, if a conversation turns to guns, then it is mass shooting and what else but the US and the 2nd Amendment. But hardly Switzerland with the most liberal gun laws in the world.

Can be both at the same time, and In America's case its the both Malice and Accident or as they say necessary intervention, now if USA is making a policy error which hurts its national interests that's fine, but the way USA policies are interconnected with many countries, they get effected by it directly or indirectly.

I do not see how.

Q: If you drive and hit a pedestrian, two things: either malice or accident. Which is it?

A policy error that turned into a disaster is still an accident. Even if I am driving to commit a bank robbery and hit a pedestrian, the latter is still an accident.

But no country is like America, America is unique with large Population, good buying power and large piece of land, people who are educated and can be considered wealthy in their home countries they move to America for a peaceful life which they seldom gets in their countries, I can give you example of my aunt who was very poor and she used to run a small denim jeans factory out of a very small house with few workers, from her determination she becomes one of the biggest exporter of Denim jeans/Jackets/shirts outside Pakistan, than her son started a business and after many losses he becomes successful, one of her daughter worked for SUPARCO, and yet they all moved to Canada, they can/were living a very luxurious life in Pakistan, have everything but the situation such as extortion calls, got robbed at their own house 2-3 times, have made them move their entire wealth to Canada, one would argue why ? its not that they consider Canada to be morally righteous or anything, they move it because Canada was willing to give the whole family immigration visas and they can move their business there, have a safe life and future for themselves and their grandkids.

My point was that somehow, there are many people who are considered to be 'well off' in their home countries chose to emigrate to America where their wealth would kinda sorta 'demoted' them into middleclass status, albeit American middleclass. They were willing to accept that demotion. Why so? Now, if Chinese billionaire Jack Ma come to the US, whatever loss he may suffer would be irrelevant. One billion is in the same class as two (or more) billions.

There are Italians TODAY who became US citizens. I have been to Italy. We flew out of Aviano and I enjoyed my walk around Pordenone. Beautiful Lake Barcis and the Dolomites. Love the country and the people. Somehow, I love Spain and Italy. The odd part is that I have French genes from my paternal side. Could never get enough of paella. I would have Vietnamese Pho for breakfast, Lasagna for lunch, and seafood Paella for dinner. Why would any Italian or Spaniard leave their countries and become US citizens? But there are. Somehow, as flawed as America is, there is something about the country that people are willing to analyze and justify their decisions to come here, even if they came from countries that Americans wish the US would become more like.

Failed on a Macro level, me on a personal level has nothing to do with what values USA failed at, Again me leaving my country was not a decision that was made on what America stands for but a family related decision, Plus my country is even worse when it comes to those values that I want/try to hold dear, so coming to USA was definitely an improvement even on the moral standard.

That is interesting. And no, I did not 'failed'. Sorry.

You may decide America to be an improvement only AFTER you have lived here for a while, but that final decision support my contention that ultimately, whatever moral failings America may have, those failures are/were not enough to compel you to return to your Pakistan.

No one want to be 'stateless'...

Ending Statelessness

Today, millions of people around the world are denied a nationality. As a result, they often aren’t allowed to go to school, see a doctor, get a job,

www.unhcr.org

Let us say that you do not like the US. But if you have to make a decision, would you chose statelessness over the US? I doubt it. If I have to, would I chose statelessness over Nazi Germany? Probably not. Maybe not with today's hindsight and knowledge. But if survival was at stake, an uncertain future with Nazi Germany is probably better odds. For YOU, if not America, then it is Pakistan. But for some, if not America, then it is statelessness. They have nowhere else to 'return' to.

But put the extreme condition of statelessness aside. You are not that. Your fallback option is Pakistan. But now, by your own admittance that after some time, the US is the better choice on the moral level, that means when the US failed our values, those failures are/were not important enough for you to exercise your fallback option. On the moral level, you are actually better off than %99.999 of Americans. They have nowhere else to go. Sure, some will run to Canada or even Mexico. But most, they have to endure those moral failings and hope they can change their country on the next election cycle.

Sorry but I didn't get that part of your post, can you rephrase it ?

What I meant is this...

If you would ever find yourself in a precarious situation where one's nationality determines one's physical safety, you can always say "I am Pakistani" and you will be safe. You can have lived in America for decades. You can even have voted for Donald Trump. But the moment you say "I am Pakistani", you would be immediately removed, not merely absolved, of any sin America may have done. YOU have that luxury. Americans do not.

What difference will it make ? if I leave or lets say Millions of Immigrants leave ? Will USA leave ME ? Will USA stop interfering in country's internal politics ? USA literally financed a regime change in Pakistan not long ago, and now its too late for Americans like you to ask anyone to leave because hundreds of thousands of people who comes to USA are directly effected by the war/conflicts which has direct/indirect connection with America, can America take it all back ? Just one example, you most likely know about CIA's role in shaping the F'd up S.American countries and their cartels who screwing up their countries, can USA take that back ? Can USA put Sadaam back in Power or Ghaddafi ? whether they were good or bad, that was not up to USA or anyone to decide, but yet America/west intervene and turned those countries into a sh1t hole and breeding ground for extremism, if USA can fix all the countries it messed up than USA is well within their rights to ask the people to leave and use force if necessary.

Geopolitically speaking, America is everywhere. But I find your highlighted argument untenable. To put it another way, the lion just ravaged your flock and you decided to run and lived in the lion's den? The US done a bad thing in your country, then you and your family immigrated to the US, found the new country better than your birth country, and decided to make the US permanent. Why? One would think that at most, your stay in the US would be temporary, but you and your family CHOSE to make it permanent. Think of how you characterized some countries: sh1thole. They did not became that way. The foundation was already there. It maybe unfortunate that the US used them, but the US would not be able to exploit any flaw unless the flaws were ALREADY there. That you and your family made the US your permanent home says something about the original culture. Other than WW II, the US never had any presence on China, but guess the nature of China today. Nothing to do wIth US. After the Iraqis hanged Saddam Hussein, did Iraq turned into a flower of democracy? Similar question for Russia after the Soviet Union. The US never conquered Mexico but the country have been the poster child for corruption and failed state status ever since the battle for The Alamo in Texas.

So yes, I will ask people to leave for their birth countries if they do not like US.

 

[VCheng]

If you would ever find yourself in a precarious situation where one's nationality determines one's physical safety, you can always say "I am Pakistani" and you will be safe. You can have lived in America for decades. You can even have voted for Donald Trump. But the moment you say "I am Pakistani", you would be immediately removed, not merely absolved, of any sin America may have done. YOU have that luxury. Americans do not.

Of course, I will be happy to take the benefits, but leave the blame for all the sins for you.

 

[Goritoes]

A policy error that turned into a disaster is still an accident. Even if I am driving to commit a bank robbery and hit a pedestrian, the latter is still an accident.

You can hit a pedestrian on your way to rob a bank as a diversionary tactics. Its not either this or that, it can be both not just in the example you use but in the foreign policy of the USA.

Somehow, as flawed as America is, there is something about the country that people are willing to analyze and justify their decisions to come here, even if they came from countries that Americans wish the US would become more like.

I think we already discussed that, their decisions could be personal/financial/family/study/work/opportunity and each an every category has its own sub-category. Plus Europeans immigration is different because of the USA influence over their countries, Good thing about USA is that you can absorbed in the USA society/culture and yet you can keep your identity which you mentioned in your post, but i don't see any connection of that with how USA can justify its double standard for those values on which they claim to have created their country, when it comes to countries which USA is not allied off than liberty/freedom/self-defense/independent foreign policy don't matter.

You may decide America to be an improvement only AFTER you have lived here for a while, but that final decision support my contention that ultimately, whatever moral failings America may have, those failures are/were not enough to compel you to return to your Pakistan.

You know why it does not compel me or anyone, because you are mixing individual persons decision to immigrate to a country over a country's double standard policy, USA has done the same thing over the past many decades with other countries so I don't understand why people (Americans) get upset over when someone criticize their bad foreign policy. I don't see your logic for one returning to their country because they disagree with USA foreign policy.

The US done a bad thing in your country, then you and your family immigrated to the US, found the new country better than your birth country, and decided to make the US permanent. Why?

Because as I said the reasons could be different, if someone who do no like USA policy and his wife is born American citizen and they want to move there its not wrong, if Pakistan was financially stable than many people would chose to move back. But the world has become such a terrible place thanks to power players and politics that its the common civilians who suffer and had to make hard choices but again, an individual's decision to move to any country does not reflect that he/she (immigrant) supports/condemn every good/bad policy that country has made, its just simply unrealistic.

It maybe unfortunate that the US used them, but the US would not be able to exploit any flaw unless the flaws were ALREADY there.

I disagree with that, just because there are fault lines exists in a country doesn't give other country right to exploit them, a simple example I can give is that USA supports to Shia Militia in Iraq in the very beginning, the divide and hate was there but from a pure moral high ground which American (not individuals like you) but Government stand is that they do the good by all collapse, Similar to that USA preaches about self defense but when you bring Palestine/Kashmir into the equation than people change their mind, if self defense is everyone's right and if this is what USA stand for than do it for any country even if you have to go against your allies, America is a powerful country and if they put their weight to any side that side becomes dominant, so either be fair in all situation or stay out of conflicts or stop preaching about the moral high ground, that is how I see things, in simple words hypocrisy is not a good thing.

After the Iraqis hanged Saddam Hussein, did Iraq turned into a flower of democracy? Similar question for Russia after the Soviet Union. The US never conquered Mexico but the country have been the poster child for corruption and failed state status ever since the battle for The Alamo in Texas.

USA hanged Sadaam, USA removed him from power, captured him, had a trail (laughable at best) and hanged him, I mean come on man. But you see USA have issues with China when it comes to oppressing the Muslim Population, but USA actively supports Israel oppressive policies and Indian, so if you are honest in your values you treat them both the same, USA is providing guns/weapons to Ukraine, what if Russia openly provided weapons like Missile to Iraq ? when USA was fighting in Iraq, come one man don't be navie in that. USA role in messing up the South American countries is not hidden from the world, even recently as USA tried to assassinate Venezuela President covertly. Than you have Cuban Missile Crisis , Bay of Pig invasion of Cuba and the lists goes on.

I think we will go in circles, but its good to hear from your side, in the end all I can say is that lets agree to disagree. I would accept that USA succeed in standing up for the values they created their country for when they treat everyone the same for the things which goes against their values, if Israel oppress Palestinians I would expect action from USA, cut of Aid or sanction what USA would typically do to its enemies. The day I see this added in USA foreign Policy than I will say yes USA is the only country that stand for what they founded on even if it means going against their own closest ally.