Al-Khalid tank (Type 90-IIM / MBT-2000) Information Pool

[MastanKhan]

true I was just thinking it may be helpful in picking enemy tanks at a longer distance.... off course than you can engage them at a longer distance... some thing like fighters... see first shoot first and disappear

Hi,

Are you saying tanks killing other tanks from a farther distance?

 

[Tipu7]

Given the experience of PA operating in COIN ops, PA could have designed the AK-1 or an AK series into an MBT, optimised and suited for urban warfare.

There is no Urban warfare in Pakistan up to the level which demands dedicated version of MBT. Our asymmetric threat is based on Mountainous region where 48 Ton AK (TUSK or similar upgrade will increase its weight) will have limited mobility and will be overkill in most cases as TTP and it's splinter groups do not carry any ATGMs.
Instead of using precious AK, we can further optimize already optimized T59/69 and make them more 'Western Front specific'. Plus, We no longer need MBT on ground to deal with Terror borne threats as we have cleared that area already and there are no longer any enemy fortifications.
Rather than Urban kit for MBT, for Pakistan, conversion of T59/69 (few of them) into dedicated IFV like Russian BTR-T will be interesting option as such IFV are much suited in given COIN threat and offer way more flexibility with slight reduction in fire power and making no compromise on protection. This interesting method may look credible but it's highly unlikely we will sort it out.

 

[Signalian]

There is no Urban warfare in Pakistan up to the level which demands dedicated version of MBT. Our asymmetric threat is based on Mountainous region where 48 Ton AK (TUSK or similar upgrade will increase its weight) will have limited mobility and will be overkill in most cases as TTP and it's splinter groups do not carry any ATGMs.
Instead of using precious AK, we can further optimize already optimized T59/69 and make them more 'Western Front specific'. Plus, We no longer need MBT on ground to deal with Terror borne threats as we have cleared that area already and there are no longer any enemy fortifications.
Rather than Urban kit for MBT, for Pakistan, conversion of T59/69 (few of them) into dedicated IFV like Russian BTR-T will be interesting option as such IFV are much suited in given COIN threat and offer way more flexibility with slight reduction in fire power and making no compromise on protection. This interesting method may look credible but it's highly unlikely we will sort it out.

There are many countries where tanks can be used in urban combat in COIN ops and a customised version of AK should be brought up with options as per customer requirements. The experience that PA got can be utilised in that MBT.

 

[Gryphon]

Malyshev Plant shipped the next batch of motor-transmission facilities for the Republic of Pakistan.

Motor-transmission units are kits, including engine, transmission, engine maintenance systems, air purification system, armored roof. Subsequently, all of these kits will be installed in Pakistani Al-Khalid-1 military vehicles.

http://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/medi...dni-3-mlrd-grn-realizovanoyi-produktsiyi.html

 

[Tipu7]

There are many countries where tanks can be used in urban combat in COIN ops and a customised version of AK should be brought up with options as per customer requirements. The experience that PA got can be utilised in that MBT.

Counter Argument :
Yara we don't have enough sources to full fill domestic production goals, how are we supposed to make AK an MBT ideal for Urban warfare? Our Military forces do not have any experience in this regard as far as utility of MBT is concerned. In mountainous terrain, while dealing with low intensity conflict against militia which lack sophisticated weapon system and rely on their overwhelming Geographical and organizational advantages , we do have a lot experience. We can teach World the tactics, not specific modernization in military hardware.
For example, for Urban Warfare, using MBT against force equipped with ATGMs, installation of Soft Kill as well as Hard Kill Protection System is crucial demand. Along side shells which are specifically meant to kill life in such confined environment (TBX based shells). Neither we have expertise in tank design nor in making of armor for enhanced Ballistic protection.
I believe Israel experience are special in this regard as their threat perceptions include COIN Ops again Hizb ul Allah and Hamas in Lebonan & Gaza strip respectively, and both of these militias are well equipped and trained in anti tank role.
We don't have any such threat perceptions as Tanks in Pakistan are primarily meant to counter India or along side Western Borders to deal with Afghanistan and insurgents (just in case)

 

[Signalian]

Counter Argument :
Yara we don't have enough sources to full fill domestic production goals, how are we supposed to make AK an MBT ideal for Urban warfare? Our Military forces do not have any experience in this regard as far as utility of MBT is concerned. In mountainous terrain, while dealing with low intensity conflict against militia which lack sophisticated weapon system and rely on their overwhelming Geographical and organizational advantages , we do have a lot experience. We can teach World the tactics, not specific modernization in military hardware.
For example, for Urban Warfare, using MBT against force equipped with ATGMs, installation of Soft Kill as well as Hard Kill Protection System is crucial demand. Along side shells which are specifically meant to kill life in such confined environment (TBX based shells). Neither we have expertise in tank design nor in making of armor for enhanced Ballistic protection.
I believe Israel experience are special in this regard as their threat perceptions include COIN Ops again Hizb ul Allah and Hamas in Lebonan & Gaza strip respectively, and both of these militias are well equipped and trained in anti tank role.
We don't have any such threat perceptions as Tanks in Pakistan are primarily meant to counter India or along side Western Borders to deal with Afghanistan and insurgents (just in case)

Had PA put AK in combat in COIN, the Saudis would be looking to get AK for ops in Yemen instead of using and losing M1 Abrams. In order to save AK from houthi ATGM teams, PA would have devised/ordered/imported an APS system out of necessity.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Had PA put AKs in COIN operations, you would have seen images of burnt out hulls of those tanks as well.
If M1A1s or Merkavas can be blown up using mines or ATGMs, AK is no exception.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Had PA put AKs in COIN operations, you would have seen images of burnt out hulls of those tanks as well.
If M1A1s or Merkavas can be blown up using mines or ATGMs, AK is no exception.

Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.

And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..

Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.

And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..

Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.

Are AKs less prone to what happened to M1A1 Abrams in Yemen? If so, care to explain how?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Are AKs less prone to what happened to M1A1 Abrams in Yemen? If so, care to explain how?

Nothing is indestructible...

But comparing Paks WOT to saudis shortfalls in yemen is stupid to say the least.

Nowhere in the world do tank crews abandon their tanks at the sight of a flip flop wearing guy with an rpg.

 

[Mrc]

When ever u put amour to protect troops caz they are afraid to
Dismount this Will happen...

Even US in Iraq had same issue

 

[SQ8]

There is no need to put your best tank designed for straight out punching with Armor in head on attacks into a crossfire type ambush game such as most COIN ops are. The PA was smart to stick to sending the TYpe-59s and 69s which have both ample firepower and are generally cheap throwaways into this fray.

 

[GriffinsRule]

You guys are missing what I was getting at. I was responding to Signalians assertion that ...
"Had PA put AK in combat in COIN, the Saudis would be looking to get AK for ops in Yemen instead of using and losing M1 Abrams"

If its just a matter of their soldiers getting out and fighting, why would they need AKs for that? That was the point I was trying to make. And then to further assume that PA somehow would have cared enough for the reputation of their tank to survive (not saudi soldier's lives) against Houti ATGM they would have been forced to upgraded them with some sort of Active Protection System.

Anyways, that was my point.

 

[Signalian]

Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.

And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..

Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.

I think PA marketed; superior strategy, implementation of planning and generic battle experience to the world, rather than any weapon systems. This is because PA has to bring out the results with what its got in its inventory, whether an old or a modern weapon. AZ and T-59 II are not the MBT's which anyone will buy, even when they showed good results. AH-1 proved to be an excellent gunship on western border/COIN, but its considered outdated in front of the likes of AH-64 D/E. The world has been seeing US transport helicopters since 1960's, first UH-1 in vietnam and then UH-60 since 1980's although Mi-17 is very rugged, can take a lot of beating and it has been used in all terrains by PA; desert, plains, mountains, snow.
If a weapon is modern and marketed properly, there are chances that prospective clients will get interested and buy.

 

[HRK]

Except the fact that ttp doesnt have much atgms.

And all in all 2 tanks were lost .. one in swat which hit IEDs and subsequent suicide and rpg strikes... the crew safely evacuated..

Second one in Bajaur , a type-59 whose crew fought the entire night without backup till their ammunition ran out and had to resort to throwing grenades and small arms.

mubarka janab mubarka .... for DP