Afghan war: Deepest attack inside Soviet Union

[Secur]

THe senario would have been entirely different had 9/11 not happened.

Why? With the rising Taliban power in Afghanistan and forceful implementation of an intolerant interpretation of religion in its territories, sooner or later there would have been calls for the same in Pakistan. I know this being aware of the extent of radicalization in this country. And I for one, don't want football stadium style justices here. There would have come upon a time where you would have had no way left but to fight against the same group (it existed long before 2004). There would have come upon a time when you would have had to bring tribal areas under control. All courtesy of the mistakes of the past! At least with 9/11, we went there with preparation and mentally prepated state. Imagine something where we would have had no warning, already had irreparable damage and a large portion of our military agreed with these animals (it was worrysome not so long ago with too many TTP offensives on military installations being planned with current or retired personnel in cases).

 

[Psychic]

Why? With the rising Taliban power in Afghanistan and forceful implementation of an intolerant interpretation of religion in its territories, sooner or later there would have been calls for the same in Pakistan. I know this being aware of the extent of radicalization in this country. And I for one, don't want football stadium style justices here. There would have come upon a time where you would have had no way left but to fight against the same group (it existed long before 2004). There would have come upon a time when you would have had to bring tribal areas under control. All courtesy of the mistakes of the past! At least with 9/11, we went there with preparation and mentally prepated state. Imagine something where we would have had no warning, already had irreparable damage and a large portion of our military agreed with these animals (it was worrysome not so long ago with too many TTP offensives on military installations being planned with current or retired personnel in cases).

What good would have been for us if Russians were still in Afghanistan? Pakistan sandwiched between hostile nations.
It may have been far worse than what is today, maybe we would have lost Baluchistan to marxist nationalists then.
Your entire argument is that Soviets would not have invaded Pakistan, well has India invaded Pakistan since that time? The era of invasions had ended by that time, no one in Pak exept lal topis of ANP were happy with a pro Indian govt in Afghanistan.
Pakistan never helped taliban. It just accepted their govt as it wasnt anti Pak. Many countries have used and still use proxies for their national interests. SU was a hostile country at that time and needed to be kicked out of Afghanistan. They aren't our enemies now and some of our past friends are our enemies, but that is how world works. Britishers faught against the French and were fighting for the French a hundred years later in WW1. Now that means that they were wrong at that time?

 

[Secur]

Pakistan never helped taliban.

I will not continue if you start arguing against the sun. Pakistan created and helped Taliban (even with military advisers and on duty soldiers). Their kind calls Mullah Sami-ul-Haq its spiritual father and Daroom-ul-Aloom Haqqania, Akora Khattal as their birth place for a reason.

Your entire argument is that Soviets would not have invaded Pakistan, well has India invaded Pakistan since that time? The era of invasions had ended by that time, no one in Pak exept lal topis of ANP were happy with a pro Indian govt in Afghanistan.

No, that isn't my entire argument. There were better ways of tackling the Soviet threat, why opt for a cure more fearsome than the disease so to speak?

 

[Bratva]

It wasn't. You yourself mention Iran, did they get their hands burned? Did they get their population radicalized? Limited engagement and aggressive diplomacy was the best way to continue forward. Kremlin after all, records indicate, never wished to come down to the Pakistani shores, as the exaggeration of threat goes. Well, when people use the name of Naseerullah Babur, I tell them to reveal themselves his titles too. He might have been in PPP, he remained loyal and open to dictations from his former organization. Taliban phenomenon was the brain child of the same "not so bright" military planners who didn't learn one single thing with Mujahideen going haywire! They didn't learn that you can't control these monsters and playing with the mind of the general populace using religion is a recipe for disaster!

Take it up with the liberals then. You are not speaking with one.

What was stopping soviet union to give India a space in Afghanistan so that they can train and fund Baloch and pashtoon and Sindhi elements and create havoc in Pakistan ? Just as Afghanistan of today doing similar thing, Soviets would have done it back in the day.

When they had a role to play in breaking Pakistan, what was stopping them to not to repeat 71' episode once again with the help of India ? One of the major reasons Pakistan jumped into war to keep soviets from our backs.

 

[xyxmt]

"Those who forget history are bound to repeat it"
History is very important,

but history should not always be glamorized, I think we should teach this as what not to do, do not spread weapons in your neighborhood....unless off course your neighbor is India.

 

[Psychic]

There were better ways of tackling the Soviet threat

Nope.

why opt for a cure more fearsome than the disease so to speak?

You have underestimated the disease.

Many of the Baluch seperatists are/were Marxists who were pro Soviets and pro Afghan govt. After loss of East Pakistan, we would have faced another disaster in the shape of loss of Baluchistan by now had we not kicked the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

 

[Secur]

What was stopping soviet union to give India a space in Afghanistan so that they can train and fund Baloch and pashtoon and Sindhi elements and create havoc in Pakistan ? Just as Afghanistan of today doing similar thing, Soviets would have done it back in the day.

I didn't even once argue that Pakistan shouldn't have done anything about it. I know better to continue that way. I argue that what we did, came back to bite us and there were better options at limited engagement. Also, the Soviet union advised Afghanistan to tone down the support for separatists in Baluchistan. Read some history, don't buy so heavily into the official propaganda narrative aimed at exaggerating the threat and provide "Mujahids" for so called jihad.

You have underestimated the disease.

Even if I have and for the sake of argument, a no holds barred engagement was the way to go over limited engament, what wisdom lay in repeating the mistake again with creation of Taliban? Why don't you answer this question?

 

[Echo_419]

Probing the bear
Afghanistan touched the borders of Soviet Union with Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. These were Muslim majority areas and Southern central Asia had belonged to Soviet Union for only about a hundred years.
It was decided by ISI and CIA to start incursions in these regions. Although CIA provided ISI with maps and satellite photos of Afghanistan but for some reason, they did not provide any of those in the case of Soviet Union.
At first,in 1984, contacts were made in Uzbekistan and the response of locals was favourable. Thousands of copies of Holy Quran in Uzbek were printed and then taken across the border of Afghanistan and distributed among the locals.
Then over the next few years, several cross border raids were conducted apart from firing from within the Afghan border into Soviet Union.
The river Amu or the Oxus formed the border between Afghanistan and Soviet Union for about 500 kilometers. Several raids were launched across that river in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan from within Afghanistan.

Poking the bear
During the late 1986, ISI began tentative planning for more ambitious attacks inside Soviet Union. Commanders were briefed, trained and supplied with weapons and ammunition well before the winter set in because snow blocks the passes during winters. The offensives were to be initiated in spring 1987.
The first attack involved carrying out rocket shelling of a Soviet airbase but as the air base was close to the border, so firing position was set inside Afghanistan. The attack was a success.
The second one involved twenty men armed with RPG's and anti tank mines tasked with ambushing frontier road East of Termez. Between that town and Tajikistan border. They were to lay mines between two security posts, wait for vehicles, ambush them and then withdraw. In that event, three soft skinned Soviet vehicles drove down the road at night, one was hit by anti tank mine and the other two with RPG rounds. Several Soviet soldiers were reportedly killed. The team made it back unscathed.
We will talk about the third attack, which was the most ambitious attack in which, an industrial site 20 kilometers north of Amu close to airfield at Voroshilovabad was attacked. This attack had far reaching political and military consequences.

Deepest incursion

Commander
The commander selected for this operation by ISI was an ethnic Uzbek mujahid who had been very active in the incursions into Soviet Union. We will call him "Wali" which is not his real name.
Wali was a middle aged man at the time of attack. His background was typical to that of millions of Afghans. He used to live in a tiny village(destroyed by Russians afterwards) in Imam Sahib district on the South Bank of river Amu in Kunduz province.
Wali received a little religious education and could read a little bit as per the local culture. He became a herdsman at the age of ten and learned to plough at fifteen.Wali grew up besides the Amu so he had extensive knowledge of the area. He knew the river, swamps, pathways, little Sandy islands in the river and strength of the current.
Wali had a wife, two sons and a daughter.
Wali's life had been devastated by the Soviet invasion. His village was destroyed his daughter killed in Soviet bombing. His sons joined the Mujahedeen, one of them soon died in battle and the other one went missing. A fate worse than death because Wali feared that he might have been captured, tortured and executed. After devastation of their village, he and his wife fled to Chitral Pakistan.
His knowledge of the border region, coupled with his oath of vengeance taken against the Soviets made him an excellent choice for a deep cross border attack.

The attack on industrial site

Preparations
By 1986, Wali had proven himself an excellent commander and he had 300 men under his command. His first cross border action was a reconissance mission in 1984 and after that, he led numerous croos border raids.
The area between Amu, north of Shirkhan(map below) and the Soviet town of Kurgan Tyube was well developed with no less than nine airfields, industrial facilities, railway depots and power stations. In short, this area was full of worthwhile targets.
Wali was tasked by ISI to:
1- Go in on a long range reconaissance in specified area.
2- Make contacts and friends.
3- Find a suitable target.
4- Select firing positions.
5- Select route in and route out.
As Wali was supplied with Chinese 107mm rockets with a range of 9km, he needed to find a target only as far that he would be able to reach 9km from target by the night and withdraw hurriedly before the morning.

Reconnaissance
For reconnaissance, Wali took two of his men with him, they crossed the river Amu from ShirKhan side in small recce boats and spent the night in a friend's house in Tajikistan. Wali along with his guide friend set out for the hills the next day hoping to find a suitable target. They had no map and Wali only had a compass and binoculars for navigation. They were on the hills with Soviet industrial complexes below them on the cotton-growing plains. They did not know the names of the complexes or the airfields below them.
They had covered 12 kilometers on the hills kepping to the goat and sheep trails when Wali scanned the plains below with his binoculars. He could see an airfield and a cluster of chimnies behind that airfield. Wali selected that industrial site as his target. That was in Voroshilovabad area.
Wali took the bearing from the spur on which he stood. The factories were more or less lined up on 283 degrees. The estimated distance was between 7 to 9 kilometers. The firing position was simple as it could have been anywhere on the spur on which he stood. Factories were spread over a large area so there was a chance that he would hit something anyways.
Wali and his comrades returned home, rechecking the route they went, noticing the landmarks along the route and timing themselves over the distance. It was a round trip of 8 hours.

Weapons used in the attack
The target was to be hit with rockets.
Initially, it was decided that one Chinese 107mm SBRL(single barrel rocket launcher) will be taken but Wali decided to take two SBRL's instead of one just to make sure (incase of failure in one launcher). These Chinese 107mm SBRL's had effective range of 9 kilometers.
Each SBRL which weighed 23 kilograms was manpacked by two men, one carried the bipod and the other carried the barrel.
Wali decided to fire thirty rockets, which would require thirty men to carry them apart from four carrying the launchers. Each projectile weighed 18 kilograms.
Apart from regular HE(high explosive) rockets, ten of the rockets were smoke rockets which Wali had included for their incendiary properties as he intended to set buildings on fire.
Thus a total force of 34 men(excluding Wali) was assembled. Personal weapons (ak's, pistols) were also taken.

View attachment 236666
Chinese 107mm SBRL-file photo

View attachment 236667
107mm rounds-file photo
​

The attack

View attachment 236668
Voroshilovabad(target area) is marked by blue flag. Notice Imam Sahib and ShirKhan
​

Wali's team crossed Amu in four recce boats at night in mid April 1987 from the ShirKhan area. He met his guide on the other side who led them between Soviet border posts to their hiding place in a scrub-covered gully in the hills beyond his village.They spent the day Hiding under blankets and rocks, trying to sleep and occasionally nibbling at nan(flat bread) or drinking water from their goatskin water bottles.
It took them five hours of hard marching to reach their firing positions.
Both SBRL's were set with fifteen rockets per piece. Wali took his bearing and went to each rocket launcher to check it's setting. He adjusted the elevation of one launcher to 8km and other to 7.5km to give him a better chance of hitting.
"Allah o Akbar....fire" and with their distinctive whoosh and soar the two rockets left their launchers in graceful arcs. Then both launchers fired independently until all rockets were gone. Wali noticed from his binoculars something burning and came to knew that strike was a success but he did not have the time for sightseeing as they had to get out.

Getting out
They did not have enough time left to go back before the morning so the next day was spent hiding under boulders from where they witnessed Soviet reaction. Gunships and planes flying south to bomb the already ruined villages in Afghanistan.
The next night, they recrossed the Amu river and were back in Afghanistan. Soviet aircraft had been dropping thousands of anti personal mines in northern Afghanistan, most of the mines were of butterfly types. These mines had tiny wings which prevented them from tumbling on their way down, colored brown or green, they were hard to spot and could remove the foot of the unwary.
This is what happened to Wali. He stepped on a mine and bang. A few moments later, his left foot was hanging with a piece of tendon and skin. His field amputation was a tourniquet with a piece of cord and then a cut with a knife to remove the foot. Stretcher was made with blanket tied to rifles but their difficulties would not end as Soviets would continue to hound them over the next six days in which, four more of his men were wounded.
Wali was finally brought to Pakistan after several weeks to recieve proper medical attention where he survived and started to work in a carpet shop. Wali preferred death over such an injury as he wanted to continue fighting the Soviets.
Had he been a regular soldier, he would have been awarded the highest gallantry award but he was still content to know that his attack had been too successful, too daring and too damaging

Aftermath
Right after Wali's attack, Soviet warplanes and gunships bombed northern Afghanistan round the clock over the next week. Wali had made a cut in the soft underbelly of Soviet Union.
Wali's attack had caused significant damage to the industrial site. The smoke rockets had caused a fire which consumed several buildings. It was the suddenness, ferocity and the distance (20km inside Soviet Union) which was so galling to the enemy.
Three successful attacks within three weeks caused Moscow to instruct it's ambassador in Pakistan to use whatever language necessary to stop these attacks.
Soviets also feared the effect of these attacks on the local Muslim population, which could launch rebellion.
Pakistan's foreign minister Sahibzada Yaqub Ali Khan believed that integrity of Pakistan was under threat, that threat was itself confirmation that the attacks were hurting.
Prime minister Junejo halted further attacks inside Soviet Union.
Despite above mentioned facts, Soviet Union was in no position to attack Pakistan as it agreed to withdraw from Afghanistan in the next few months.

Reference
"The bear trap" by Brig Yousef Shah​

Good read

 

[Psychic]

Even if I have and for the sake of argument, a no holds barred engagement was the way to go over limited engament

And what would have been the result of "limited engagement" ? Limited engagement was not enough to kick SU outta Afghanistan.

what wisdom lay in repeating the mistake again with creation of Taliban? Why don't you answer this question?

What other choice did we have? NA ruling Afghanistan? We can only make assumptions on "what if we had not supported taliban".
I will not argue over support of taliban, perhaps it was a mistake but supporting mujaheddeen was not a mistake.

 

[Yazp]

What other choice did we have? NA ruling Afghanistan? We can only make assumptions on "what if we had not supported taliban".
I will not argue over support of taliban, perhaps it was a mistake but supporting mujaheddeen was not a mistake.

I don't fully support the fact we fought the NA, or funded the Taliban untill 9/11. But we did what we had to...
Otherwise India would have boxed us in, 3 out of 4 borders would be hostile. (Maybe 2 out of 4 if we stop sectarianism)

 

[Psychic]

I don't fully support the fact we fought the NA, or funded the Taliban untill 9/11. But we did what we had to...
Otherwise India would have boxed us in, 3 out of 4 borders would be hostile. (Maybe 2 out of 4 if we stop sectarianism)

It was never moral to support taliban but it all depended upon what other choice did we have? Afghanistan also became relitively stable. Post 9/11 everything changed.

 

[Yazp]

It was never moral to support taliban but it all depended upon what other choice did we have? Afghanistan also became relitively stable. Post 9/11 everything changed.

Yep. The most embarrassing thing was us acknowledging "The ""Islamic"" Emirate of Afghanistan". And since we did that, everyone, their mother and brother think we're terrorist funders (which technically we are)...

 

[Psychic]

Yep. The most embarrassing thing was us acknowledging "The ""Islamic"" Emirate of Afghanistan". And since we did that, everyone, their mother and brother think we're terrorists (which technically we are)...

Accepting them had its positives. You need to have some links with bad guys if you want to talk something to them. e.g when they decided to blow Buddha's statue in Bamian, the West and Japan etc wanted to talk to them but couldn't do it themselves and hence they had to rely on Pakistan to convey their messages or to negotiate with them. Now they themselves have declared them as enemy combatants, not terrorists.

 

[Secur]

What other choice did we have? NA ruling Afghanistan? We can only make assumptions on "what if we had not supported taliban".

The way you are arguing is typical of people that believe too much in the infallability of military and what they are officially told without utilizing their own critical mind. Its black and white thinking pattern. Each time you commit a blunder, merely saying "we had no other choice" won't do. Its a fact that the Pakistani planners don't have an idea of diplomacy and demonstate short sightedness and short term planning. Of course we are left to only make assumptions now, because the blunder has already been committed and we are fighting an offshoot of it today.

Whats with this country according to you, that it finds itself to make impossible choices (as per you) somehow? Some very unique geoghraphical location that can't be bypassed by any means? Or there ever can be a mistake on the part of the military which has run this country for majority of its years?

Accepting them had its positives. You need to have some links with bad guys if you want to talk something to them.

You don't accept your creations. In this case, the bad guy was trained and armed from Pakistan, don't pretend something that all of us know is false. And don't even ask for links on this one.

And what would have been the result of "limited engagement" ? Limited engagement was not enough to kick SU outta Afghanistan.

Afghanistan was already volatile, merely arming the "Afghans" would have done the trick. There was no need to radicalize the population, import and create Jihadis for a foreign war. That, is limited engagement which most of you won't understand because they have been fooled by the exaggerated threat and have little idea of ground realities of Afghanistan during that era. The Soviets came in to stabilize the communist regime which of course means that it wasn't stable and faced a local rebellion. Sell me anything better than "we needed to get our hands burned" because it makes no sense.

 

[Yazp]

The way you are arguing is typical of people that believe too much in the infallability of military and what they are officially told without utilizing their own critical mind. Its black and white thinking pattern. Each time you commit a blunder, merely saying "we had no other choice" won't do. Its a fact that the Pakistani planners don't have an idea of diplomacy and demonstate short sightedness and short term planning. Of course we are left to only make assumptions now, because the blunder has already been committed and we are fighting an offshoot of it today.

Whats with this country according to you, that it finds itself to make impossible choices (as per you) somehow? Some very unique geoghraphical location that can't be bypassed by any means? Or there ever can be a mistake on the part of the military which has run this country for majority of its years?



You don't accept your creations. In this case, the bad guy was trained and armed from Pakistan, don't pretend something that all of us know is false. And don't even ask for links on this one.