Afghan Taliban commander expresses disassociation with TTP

[RameeX Xaved]

"have you got any statistics?"

HERE are the mid-year statistics from UNAMA (United Nations Assistance Mission Afghanistan).

They were posted only one page back. Why didn't you read them before posting your rant? Read the thread so that you don't waste people's time and you might reply in proper context. Anything less is rude.

"talibans are wiping them out..."

Don't be a fool. America has lost less than 900 troops in Afghanistan. That's slightly more than 100 per year on average.

"...and it cant be done without collatrel and civilian casualties, just like the drones, ok?"

Really? How do you explain that they are wiping out afghans at a far higher rate than Americans? Or intentionally targeting afghan civilians who constitute no military value whatsoever? Just in the first six months of this year, the afghan taliban have killed over 591 afghan civilians. The taliban killed 376 afghans last year, also MORE than ISAF. In those two years they've managed to kill more afghans than they've killed Americans in EIGHT years.

You are intellectually lazy. The data is here for you had you not piled in with your preconceived notions and, instead, taken the time to read before posting such vacant nonsense.

"tell me how many afghanis were killed by afghan talibans before 9/11?"

Tell me who was around to count the dead? Let me ask you ONE question- would you be happy to have your mother and sister live under taliban rule?

If you have problems imagining such because you are a child, then look to SWAT last spring. Do you remember what it was like in SWAT before the Pakistani Army took it back? Your answer should tell us everything we need to know about you.

Thanks.

And since when has US has got so much sympathy towards Afghanis that it has wasted trillions of dollars to 'save' afghanis from taliban rule? not many people have faith in US after what they have done in last 60 years and their plans are being exposed. you still couldnt answer as to why wasnt there any unrest before the US presence in Afghanistan.. not a single suicide bomb took place in either afghanistan or pakistan before US presence in afghanistan. our tribal areas were safe as heaven and there was no turmoil there until US troops appeared as mere invaders along with NATO who are still trying to take over afghanistan, but thanks to the strong resistence from our muslim brothers, their goals will never be achieved. remember russia came for the same reason and together we wiped them out. history is being repeated and though, gradually, but steadily US is facing immense resistence from the REAL talibans and it will never be able to exploit this land of afghanis.

 

[S-2]

You disappoint me again as your venom is full of unsubstantiated hyperbole to accentuate your wrong perspective.

"And since when has US has got so much sympathy towards Afghanis that it has wasted trillions of dollars to 'save' afghanis from taliban rule?"

Let's start with "trillions" and your poor research skills-

The Cost Of Iraq, Afghanistan, And Other Global War On Terror Operations Since 9/11-Congressional Research Bureau

Page 9 of the report (one that is periodically updated for current information) reveals an easy-to-read table indicating that the total sum dollars allocated between 2001-2009 to OEF (Operation Enduring Freedom), which includes operations in the Phillipines and other locales besides Iraq (OIF) and Afghanistan to date is approx. $226.7 BILLION, not "trillions".

As to the rest of your question, our interest grew decidedly when three American targets were hit on 9/11 whose instigators could be easily traced to Afghanistan. It is our nation's belief that the afghan people and the rest of us would benefit if the taliban government doesn't again come to power for the reasons it was once able to do so.

We are trying to change that but, frankly, I don't believe that we are particularly good at such. That doesn't mitigate that we've made a great effort in blood and expense to do so-even if we haven't be "slaughtered" nor spent money to the tune of "trillions".

"you still couldnt answer as to why wasnt there any unrest before the US presence in Afghanistan.."

Are you purposefully dissembling or willfully stupid? As of 2001, the taliban were STILL engaged in a civil war inside Afghanistan. Over 200,000 people died between 1991-2001 from that war by most conservative estimates, possibly many more and it was rife with taliban massacres (remember the hazara in Mazur-I-Sharif along with the 10 Iranian diplomats?), the open shelling of Kabul by Hekmatyar, and, of course, the rather despicably religo-fascist rule of the taliban over its people in those areas which it controlled.

You'd not be the first here to assert that these were gentle souls that brought a kind and benevolent light to that blighted land. Despite that, American aid continued to be funneled to afghanistan through NGOs at a level that exceeded all others even though we didn't have formal relations with this government of human animals.

U.S. Gives $43M To Afghanistan-CNN May 17, 2001

"The sum brings U.S. assistance to $124.2 million for this year, making the United States the largest Afghan donor for the second year in a row."

I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't a taliban apologist. You seem unaware nor unconcerned about the deep misery that was inflicted upon your afghan muslim brothers and sisters by them. I rather suspect that could only be so if you'd lived in a cave with them as a fighter or buried your head in the sand as an ostrich. This comment seems to assure such-

"our tribal areas were safe as heaven and there was no turmoil there..."

MOD EDIT:

Speaking of questions, where is your answer to mine?

I re-iterate, would you accept the governance of the taliban over your mother and sisters? If not, why if they are so kind and life is assured without turmoil under their rule?

 

[Ahmad]

I disagree with this part.

Pakistanis, people or government, have no wish to rule Afghanistan by proxy. The previous engagement in the 90s was to deny India that same capability. Pakistan supported the Taliban only as a counter to the pro-India Northern Alliance.

If the Afghans get their act together and form a government which is not a puppet of either India or Pakistan, most countries in the region, including Pakistan, would be happy with that. Sure there may be individuals in GOI or GOP who would miss the old days of proxy rule, but they would be in a minority.

bear in mind that the northern alliance were the Mujahideen who were heavily supported by Pakistan before, they were great buddies to pakistan and their hope faded from pakistan once they saw that pakisan supported one group against the other.

 

[Ahmad]

And since when has US has got so much sympathy towards Afghanis that it has wasted trillions of dollars to 'save' afghanis from taliban rule? not many people have faith in US after what they have done in last 60 years and their plans are being exposed. you still couldnt answer as to why wasnt there any unrest before the US presence in Afghanistan.. not a single suicide bomb took place in either afghanistan or pakistan before US presence in afghanistan. our tribal areas were safe as heaven and there was no turmoil there until US troops appeared as mere invaders along with NATO who are still trying to take over afghanistan, but thanks to the strong resistence from our muslim brothers, their goals will never be achieved. remember russia came for the same reason and together we wiped them out. history is being repeated and though, gradually, but steadily US is facing immense resistence from the REAL talibans and it will never be able to exploit this land of afghanis.

what? no unrest before the US? are you feeling OK? Where did you get this information from?

 

[Developereo]

"Pakistanis, people or government, have no wish to rule Afghanistan by proxy."

Maybe, but firefighter-a Pakistani Canadian (I believe), might not agree. I don't think his below expressed sentiment is a lonely one among Pakistanis, either globally or in Pakistan.

"I might add that Pakistan cannot afford to allow Indian stooges to represent Afghanistan, even if Afghans decide to vote them in..."

Well, I agree with him in a way. Pakistan would oppose an Indian puppet government in Afghanistan, but we should fight it by fielding our own puppet candidates to run in Afghan elections.

Ideally, India, Pakistan and Iran should leave Afghanistan alone, but if there is going to be a battle for proxy rule, I would prefer they duel it out through the democratic process rather than with guns and bombs.

I'd be happy with a government that we could get most Indians, Pakistanis, and (most of all ) afghans to agree represents a healthy mix of all ethnicities and perspectives at all stratas of governance.

That's where the hope fades.

Even the current Afghan administration under NATO's watch is mostly a Northern Alliance (Tajik, Uzbek) dominated government, where the largest ethnic group (42%), the Pashtuns, are marginalized. If NATO thinks such an adminstration will last long after they are gone, they are sadly mistaken.

The conflict between the Taliban and NA has always been an ethnic conflict. Whatever the 9/11 justifications, by siding with the NA, NATO has unwittingly chosen sides in a centuries old conflict. And the Tajiks, Uzbeks, etc. are using this opportunity to maximum benefit. If the Pashtun feel that they have been shortchanged by NATO, Afghanistan will again erupt into civil war as soon as NATO leaves.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem as if anyone in the US administration acknowledges the seriousness of the ethnic imbalance in Afghan governmental institutions, including the police and military.

bear in mind that the northern alliance were the Mujahideen who were heavily supported by Pakistan before, they were great buddies to pakistan and their hope faded from pakistan once they saw that pakisan supported one group against the other.

That is true, and it was a GOP blunder. However, as I stated earlier, the Afghan ethnic conflicts are centuries old and, with a large Pashtun population of our own, Pakistan decided to side with the Pashtun Taliban. What the GOP should have done, once the Soviets left, was to use their influence with all the Afghan parties to mediate a reconciliation between the ethnic groups.

But maybe the GOP acted too slowly and, before they realized, India/Iran had already made inroads with Masud and the Northern Alliance, and exploited and refueled the ethnic conflicts to reignite the civial wars and to deny Pakistan an easy puppet rule in Afghanistan.

 

[Ahmad]

I dont think the pashtoons have been margnalized unless they want everything for them in a multi ethnic society, thats how they think they are margnalized. there are more pashtoon ministers than anybody else in the cabinet or other senior posts, more pashtoon provincial gov than the others etc, president is pashtoon and heavily backed by the west since the begining, and even in the constitution which was passed(forcefully behind the scene) in favour of pashtoons. again this ethnic conflict does not help anybody including afghans, pakistan the usa etc. there must be a fully recognized rights , be it cultural, social or political for all the ethnic groups, otherwise everybody will suffer.

 

[Developereo]

I dont think the pashtoons have been margnalized unless they want everything for them in a multi ethnic society, thats how they think they are margnalized. there are more pashtoon ministers than anybody else in the cabinet or other senior posts, more pashtoon provincial gov than the others etc, president is pashtoon and heavily backed by the west since the begining, and even in the constitution which was passed(forcefully behind the scene) in favour of pashtoons. again this ethnic conflict does not help anybody including afghans, pakistan the usa etc. there must be a fully recognized rights , be it cultural, social or political for all the ethnic groups, otherwise everybody will suffer.

A multi-ethnic representative government would be ideal, but that is not what is happening under NATO's watch. Karzai's cabinet is a joke. It is full of drug lords, war criminals, and self-serving clowns who don't give a damn about the ordinary people.

The Afghan police and key government institutions are overhwelmingly staffed by non-Pashtuns. To make matters worse, most of these people are not ordinary civilians, but ex-Northern Alliance fighters with an axe to grind against the Pashtuns. NATO is essentially seen as aiding and abetting the Tajik and Uzbek takeover of Pashtun lands.

Here's an excerpt from the recent resignation letter by Matthew Hoh, a senior American official in Afghanistan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/hp/ssi/wpc/ResignationLetter.pdf

The Pashtun insurgency is fed by what is perceived by the Pashtun people as a continued and sustained assault, going back centuries, on Pashtun land, culture, traditions and religion by internal and external enemies. The U.S. and NATO presence and operations in Pashtun valleys and villages, as well as Afghan army and police units that are led and composed of non-Pashtun soldiers and police, provide an occupation force against which the insurgency is justified.

The Taliban have always been a Pashtun nationalist movement. The fact that NATO has deliberately confused Pashtun nationalism with AQ ideology is one of their biggest blunders.

 

[Ahmad]

Here's an excerpt from the recent resignation letter by Matthew Hoh, a senior American official in Afghanistan.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/hp/ssi/wpc/ResignationLetter.pdf



.

A multi-ethnic representative government would be ideal, but that is not what is happening under NATO's watch. Karzai's cabinet is a joke. It is full of drug lords, war criminals, and self-serving clowns who don't give a damn about the ordinary people.

as i said before, they cant have everything for themselves, the others also need to have a share, i need to say it again that most of the ministers, governers, powerful offic8als are pashtoons, karzai himself a pashtoon has been supported by nato. the taliban had everything for themselves 100% and now they cant bear the fact that the other ethnicities have also got a right.


The Afghan police and key government institutions are overhwelmingly staffed by non-Pashtuns. To make matters worse, most of these people are not ordinary civilians, but ex-Northern Alliance fighters with an axe to grind against the Pashtuns. NATO is essentially seen as aiding and abetting the Tajik and Uzbek takeover of Pashtun lands.


takeover of pashtoon land? i dont know where this is coming from. it is the non pashtoon land who was taken over by the pashtoon kings in the last 200 years, i am surprised to see this.


The Pashtun insurgency is fed by what is perceived by the Pashtun people as a continued and sustained assault, going back centuries, on Pashtun land, culture, traditions and religion by internal and external enemies. The U.S. and NATO presence and operations in Pashtun valleys and villages, as well as Afghan army and police units that are led and composed of non-Pashtun soldiers and police, provide an occupation force against which the insurgency is justified.

assault on pashtoon land by internal forces? give me reliable link for this as this claim is completley the other way around. and cultrual? it was during the zahir time who had culturaly suppresed all the non pashtoons and took their land. and this report does not say the masacare of other ethnicities by the hand of taliban? and one more thing, have we ever asked what these hazara people do in pakistan? they have been living there for centries.

The Taliban have always been a Pashtun nationalist movement. The fact that NATO has deliberately confused Pashtun nationalism with AQ ideology is one of their biggest blunders

yes, they are nationalist and their religious version of the story as jihad is baseless. it is hard to believe a nationalist's words as his mind is pre occupied with his fantasy about his/her ethnic superiority. by the way, we should know that a nationalist pashtoon idea in afghanistan is the greatest danger of all for pakistan, if you know what i mean.

 

[S-2]

Both of you raise interesting points but do so without providing any supporting data.

All of us are well aware of the ethnicity of Karzai, Dostum, and Fahim. Where it goes from there, I don't know but, Unity, you seem to assert that there's a stronger mix of Pashtuns than commonly perceived. I'd hope so, frankly, after eight years.

Can you provide supporting data to this?

As to encroachment on Pashtu lands by uzbek and tajiks, Developereo, I don't think there's much of a case. You might have a case that ANP or ANA forces are dominated by uzbeks and tajiks. You might also have a case that these are all former N.A. soldiers but, again, you offer nothing that substantiates such.

Can you provide any supporting data that, not only delineates the composition of these elements, but that (more importantly) they are routinely assigned onto Pashtu lands?

I know of some anecdotal stories to such but the question would be is it an increasing or decreasing trend.

America is well aware of the ethnic fissures that exist. Much works against assuring this is rectified. The easiest way is through the vote but if the taliban have any impact upon voting, it's in the areas where their presence is strongest-Pashtu lands. Needless to say, when the pashtu vote isn't turned out-for any reason-the ultimate impact upon pashtu representation is they aren't likely to elect THEIR own candidates.

This has been a source of great frustration among Americans. Likely Canadians and British too as we need their participation to build effective local governance. Where pashtus are intimidated away from polls those whom suffer the most are...

...pashtus.

I'd love for more information from both of you. It is the essence of the struggle now. It is the basis of future civil war if not resolved. Most of all, it is the key to pre-empting such and delivering trustworthy local governance to their hands.

Finally, criminals-if Karzai is complicit by virtue of his brother, let us recognize that we've pashtu criminals involved in drug-dealing. So too the taliban, who've made huge sums from this same activity. Warlordism, brigandry, and criminal behavior is not restricted by any means to simply those of tajik, turkomen, hazara, and uzbek ethnicities.

It would help if this were acknowledged more as it skews the narrative somewhat when explicitly ignored.

Thanks.

 

[ARSENAL6]

What about all those bombings in Afghan cities? I guess the Jews did that?

Nice keep the Nazi talk out of it!
Lets not go down the route of anti-semitism shall we ?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

you know -- -a lot of the problems would have been avoided if Mullah Omar had listened to Nawaz Sharif and Prince Turki when they ordered him and taleban to stop giving shelter to foreign militants like AQ.

this was biggest mistake of taleban.....they were being bought by wealthy Arab mujahideen supporters, and so their objectives became more and more "jihad" centric and less Afghanistan-centric.


8 years later we are still wondering what is the future for Afghanistan and the effects this war is having on Afghanistan's neighbour countries --especially Pakistan and Iran.

the only solution would be to weed out the extremist elements from the moderate taleban --who are nothing more than fundamentalist maulvis but anti-violence and anti-drugs & corruption.


the only solution is a political one, while military solution is used against hardcore militants and those that provide explosives and terrorist training. Biggest mistake was not to isolate taleban from AQ. After 9/11 most of the talk was about getting AQ, taleban were seen simply as fundamentalist backwards people.

Foreign forces will have no choice but to withdraw from Afghanistan. The sooner, the better......People just never read history of this region, and that is the main issue.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

bear in mind that the northern alliance were the Mujahideen who were heavily supported by Pakistan before, they were great buddies to pakistan and their hope faded from pakistan once they saw that pakisan supported one group against the other.

care to explain further??? Northern Alliance consists mostly of non-Pakhtun tajik/uzbek/hazara warlords, and they are by default pro-indian because of the geo politics of the region.

yes we supported the anti-soviet mujahideen; but you must remember that many of the "figureheads" of Northern Alliance were actually traitors (pro-Soviet)


look no farther than General Dostum!!!

 

[S-2]

"...you must remember that many of the "figureheads" of Northern Alliance were actually traitors (pro-Soviet)


look no farther than General Dostum!!!"

I don't know if Dostum is anything but pro-Dostum. He fought for the Soviets and he fought against them. He fought, again, for the Soviets, then fought with Massoud and Rabbani against Hekmatyar and then fought with Hekmatyar against Massoud and Rabbani.

Once the taliban seized power, he fought against them even as he used Uzbek avionics technicians to secure favor with the taliban by attempting to restore MiG-21 aircraft held by the taliban.

Once Kabul was captured by the taliban, he retreated into Mazur-I-Sharif. Essentially, he established his own mini-state in the area which was supported by Russia, India, and Iran. Dostum was betrayed by one of his own commanders, Malik, and forced into exile in Turkey. The taliban briefly seized control of Mazur-I-Sharif with the help of Malik but then Malik aligned with the N.A. forces and ejected the taliban from Mazur-I-Sharif.

Dostum returned to Afghanistan and defeated Malik (who now went into Iranian exile), resumed control of Mazur-I-Sharif before he was again defeated and forced into exile once more.

Dostum returned from exile again in 2001 and began a new front against the taliban in Mazur-I-Sharif uniting with Fahim and Ismail Khan. Following Massoud's murder, these three men assumed effective control of what remained of the N.A.

After the taliban's defeat, Dostum essentially established a fiefdom in the north while warring against another N.A. commander named Usted Atta Mohammad Noor. This internecine war was mediated to a truce via Karzai and the U.N. Dostum was then accused of kidnapping Akbar Bai, another rival, and with charges pending he either was exiled to or seeked asylum from Turkey once more.

He returned to Afghanistan three months ago after his latest sojourn.

The man is an opportunist. Plain and simple. Brutal and self-serving but I'd argue the same of of all afghan power-brokers and that includes Haqqani, Hekmatyar, and Omar. You don't reach power in Afghanistan without knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I agree 100%


you see....that's what you call a man with many hats......we get those too from time to time, they come and they go.


One Hussain Haqqani was contracted by the now defunct political wing of the ISI to spread anti Benazir Bhutto propaganda. He was tight with the Sharif industrialists. Almost 2 decades later, he's working for her (lost-soul) party as Pakistan's ambassador to the United States of America under PPP banner.



I was raised in a moderate, semi-religious family. Not too conservative. Do i care for the taleban? No, not really. My mentality and theirs are polar opposites.

But northern alliance has a human rights record that is AS BAD --if not WORSE than taleban. At least the original taleban brought some peace to Afghanistan.

And if taleban can change their doctrine to become an Afghan nationalist party that can forge unity and development in the Afghanistan, and also end drugs trade -- then I am all for political settlement. The hardcore elements of taleban will continue to fight until they are shot or they are arrested. So lets leave it at that. ttp is purely an anti-Pakistan organization being funded by certain nearby countries wanting Pakistan to be over-burdened and economically weak. ttp wont go down until they are killed or surrender, but Afghan taleban can be tamed if we allow for political settlement. Western forces will have no choice but to withdraw from Afghanistan. Koi shak nahi hai, bhaiyon. No doubt in my mind.

I see no end in sight 2001-2009. People are paying General Dostum and warlords like him, and he is sending Ilyushin-76 loaded with opiates and heroin. He's a crooked man.



bloody lotas; all of them..... they're a miserable lot.


Low-honour people.

 

[EjazR]

Just after the attack, OBL denied the responsibility of attacks on WTC, Taliban during power asked Americans to show them proof, if he did it; they would themselves prosecute OBL.

But They just bombed Afghans, secured resources/base, bought puppet regime into power and produced fake tapes.

I don't know if you saw the Al jazeera interview done just the next month were he clearly praises the people who did this atrocious act. He may nothave been involved in day - to - day planning but people who were linked with him were definitely behind it. In that interview he justified that these acts were right. Let me also remind you that it was back in 1998 that OBL had formed is International Front for Jihad against jews and crusaders were he justified without any proof and using convoluted logic that killing of civilians is justified.

You seem to be completely ignorant of OBL and AQ history and the fact that according to the Taliban negotiator with Pakistani and US officials, 80% of the then Taliban were against continued presence of OBL in Afghanistan.

Currently thier is an elected muslim govt. in power and an afghan arm and police force. The govt. has called for a truce and peace negotiations and as per Islamic teachings, they HAVE to enter into negotiations if the other side wants to do so. And if you say that there are foreign troops there and that the govt. is a puppet govt., then know that is EXACTLY the same argument the TTP uses for the "puppet" Zardari govt. and that drones actually fly from Pakistani air bases and they calim the prescene of American soldiers and supplies being provided by the "puppet" GoP as well and hence either both are correct or both are wrong. Its a very simple choice really.