ADB Reports Pakistan's Middle Class Larger Than India's

[majesticpankaj]

well done indians...you are giving very hard time to Mr. Haq with all facts and data. i am optimist from the upcoming figures from these yr consensus. the figures will improve surely.

 

[Dark Angel]

Haq's Musings: Haq's Musings: Haq's Musings: Haq's Musings:

 

[riju78]

Now that we are getting into a epeen contest. Here goes nothing




And yet, Pakistan has more undernourished adults than India.



It is interesting that you chose to ommit that the illiteracy rate among adult Pakistanis is 40% higher than India. Which means if India and Pakistan had same population, there would have been 365 million illiterate adults in Pakistan.


You said it here. Also its interesting that despite being lower than India in the UNDP HDR, Pakistan spends more on Defence and less on public health on a per capita basis(India $21 against Pakistan's $8).



Interesting that despite that, healthy life expectancy in India is about 5% higher than Pakistan and on an average a Pakistani stays unhealthy over 170% of the time that an average Indian stays unhealthy (HRD 2009)

And the fact that under 5 Infant mortality rate in Pakistan is almost double of that in India (6% against 3.4% for India)




If you take solace in the fact that Pakistan with its 51% poverty is far less deprived than India with its 55% then congratulations. btw did you also notice that the intensity of poverty among the 51% Pakistanis has been reported to be same , actually a little bit higher (54%) than the intensity of poverty among the 55% Indians (53.5%)


Also this index is using 2005 data for India (leaving out the steep growth curve of last 5 years) and 2007 data for Pakistan (before hell broke loose in Pakistan both economically and socially). Looking forward to a more recent data in next few months and am quite optimistic about it.



Yeah! We are way behind where we should be, but since the thread is a comparison thread, India women development index is 10% better than that of Pakistan (HDR 2009) and literacy rate among women is 40% higher than Pakistan (HDR 2009)

Sure we have minority and caste issues, but so has Pakistan with all its sect based killings and discrimination against Ahmedis. I recently heard on a blog similar to yours that the govt rescue boats, are giving preference to actual Muslims(sic) before touching the 1st Ahmedi stranded in the floods. I agree that the credibility of EVERY blog is always suspect, but what is good for Peter, should be good for Paul. Eh?

I am keeping the composite GDP development and Pakistan's need for continuous bailouts and its closeness to the state of bankruptcy out of this discussion since that has been flogged to death in this forum by now.

karan bhai sometimes i wonder how u have the patience to go through his a'musings and then reply!!! but the sad part is instead of discusiing the points u raise mr.haq chooses to post some other statistic quoting ur post!!

where is desiman and ramu????
:

 

[linkinpark]

One has to remember that all the statistics that are collected by ADB or WB are given by the government of Pakistan. If one remembers the Musharaff era, there were lot of fudging of economy data to show fake growth rates and it also happened recently as well. So, the data coming from Pakistan should always be taken with a bucket of salt.

And if you look at the big picture, nothing adds up. A country whose population growth is 3.3%, with virtually no industries to speak of, an economy on the verge of bankruptcy and with literacy rates of 50%, are we to believe that it still boasts of 40% middle class??. Its a big joke.

 

[Hutchroy]

A Starter for Mr. Haq's next Dinner :

Skilled labour shortage impeding high tech investment : experts

LAHORE: Vocational training experts have urged the government to increase spending on technical education as scarcity of skilled labour is impeding high tech investment in Pakistan as country is currently producing 210,000 skilled workers annually against demand of one million.

Technical Education and Vocational Training Authority former chairman Mohsin Syed said that even during the accelerated growth period of 2002-2007 the number of green projects could be counted on fingers because investors did not find the required skills available among the workers to run up modern efficient plants.

In fact he added even the existing industries have to compromise on the skill standards because of unavailability of competent staff. “They recruit semi skilled workers and provide them on job training” he said adding that low education among most of them impedes imparting full skills.

Member board of management TEVTA MI Khurram said that technical and vocational enrollment is only 1.3 per cent among the age group of 11-17 which is even less than Bangladesh where the enrolment is 1.6 per cent.

He said 41.3 per cent of same age group are enrolled in technical and vocational education in Australia, 32.5 per cent in Switzerland, 30.3 per cent in Egypt 20.6 per cent in Turkey, 12.8 per cent in Korea, 12.7 per cent in Japan 8.3 per cent in Iran and 5.9 per cent in Malaysia.

He deplored that successive governments failed to increase the enrollment in technical and vocational institutes in past one decade.

He said owing to low skills, the bulk of production and exports remain in low-value added and low technology manufactured goods.

Chairman TEVTA Saeed Alvi said that there is huge demand in Pakistan’s labour market for Bachelor of Technology, diploma of associate engineers, workers with apprenticeship training certificates or having vocational training, vocational diploma/certificate.

He said TEVTA has 481 training centres that include 29 technical training institutes and colleges, 314 vocational training centres, 118 commerce education colleges and centres, 17 service centres specialised institutions and 3 teachers training centres.

These centres produce 112,000 skilled persons annually out of which 45,000 are commerce degree or diploma holders for which there is low demand.

The News found that the country produces around 234,000 skilled workers a year out of which 112,000 are rolled out by TEVTA and 15,000 by Punjab Vocational Training Council in Punjab.
The government institutes in Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhaw and Balochistan produce 3730, 3300 and 1730 skilled workers annually.

Private sector including on job training to apprentices produce 70000 skilled workers while 25000 workers get training on contractual basis.

Alvi said a grave mismatch between demand and quality skills is clear from recent labour surveys, which indicate that 59.2 percent of the unemployed are literate or semi-literate.

Around 33.6 per cent of the labour force possesses less than a year of education, while 17 per cent has less than eight years of schooling. A major mismatch between desired and actual quality levels and relevance Pakistan’s growth and development is limited by lack of competence in both hard and soft skills, he added.

Now! Now!! we must await for an Amusing Response!!!

 

[muse]

You forgot to mention it's 25% of India's one billion+ that's a middle class almost equal to 100% of Pakistan's population

Whenever confronted with the total numbers of poor Indian friends always refer to PERCENTAGES to attentuate the psychological effect of morew than 400 million below poverty -- but Indian friends seem to experience a curiuos discomfort when percentages are applied to their rivals? Are the ADB numbers presented by Mr. Haq, incorrect, inaccurate, just plain lies?

A country whose population growth is 3.3%, with virtually no industries to speak of, an economy on the verge of bankruptcy and with literacy rates of 50%, are we to believe that it still boasts of 40% middle class??. Its a big joke

Indian Friends, facts are just that - no need for discomfort - however; imagine what it says about us that NEED to "feel" big tby imagining others small? Of course if the information presented by the ADB is just plain lies, maybe some Indian here will present a ADB document higlighting the information Mr. Haq has presented as lies.

 

[SMC]

One has to remember that all the statistics that are collected by ADB or WB are given by the government of Pakistan. If one remembers the Musharaff era, there were lot of fudging of economy data to show fake growth rates and it also happened recently as well. So, the data coming from Pakistan should always be taken with a bucket of salt.

Can't remember anything such happening. In fact, the numbers were fudged by current government to show a higher poverty rate compared to the actual rate.

And if you look at the big picture, nothing adds up. A country whose population growth is 3.3%, with virtually no industries to speak of, an economy on the verge of bankruptcy and with literacy rates of 50%, are we to believe that it still boasts of 40% middle class??. Its a big joke.

Actually it completely adds up if you don't use such a narrow analysis.

Pakistan was had decent growth up until 2008 and the middle class grew considerably. Poverty was always not too high which helps.

When you use the phrase "virtually no industries to speak of", you're suggesting you have no idea about the ground realities. Pakistan has a decent sized IT industry, huge telecom industry, growing service industry, etc. Stop speaking out of your ***. I don't start things with people but when you speak so dismissively and disrespectfully, that too incorrectly but this post really deserves it.

An economy on the verge of bankruptcy? Again, we're stuck in WoT. And the fact that we accumulated a lot of growth previously allowed us to have a big middle class.

 

[Bhim]

I am no economist, but can RH explain what exactly is a middle class?
Is the middle class of Pakistan the same as that of any western country?
How is middle class formed, by high end jobs, by industries, by farming or just by world donations going into the pockets of so many making them middle class?

Please do discuss the present job and industrial scenario in Pakistan, afterall middle class can not be formed in thin air?
Since he presumes to be a master of many subjects(Or posible it could be an agency, with a pseudonym Haqs musing)I would request members with economics back groung to give a more reasonable reply to Haqs agency.

 

[Trisonics]

Whenever confronted with the total numbers of poor Indian friends always refer to PERCENTAGES to attentuate the psychological effect of morew than 400 million below poverty -- but Indian friends seem to experience a curiuos discomfort when percentages are applied to their rivals? Are the ADB numbers presented by Mr. Haq, incorrect, inaccurate, just plain lies?
Indian Friends, facts are just that - no need for discomfort - however; imagine what it says about us that NEED to "feel" big tby imagining others small? Of course if the information presented by the ADB is just plain lies, maybe some Indian here will present a ADB document higlighting the information Mr. Haq has presented as lies.

Muse,

First of all there are certain criteria that need to be taken into account. Considering the huge population in India is it even fair to compare Pakistan and India? It is usually easier for countries with smaller population to do better in areas of poverty. Mr Haq always makes this mistake of comparing India and Pakistan which is not correct. For one, Pakistan is no better when it comes to poverty..if people here think its better than India so they are better off..well what can I say?
As an example, lets analyze this report in term of what I just said. Did anybody even bother to look at where Sri lanka stands? yea..they are above Pakistan..and they have had a continued struggle far longer than the WOT but they are above Pakistan!!!

Secondly when it comes to India, the only given is the huge population that is put into every equation. Now is it a given that the data collected here is comprehensive in terms of number of poor, middle class etc? What is the methodology used??? obviously, India is complicated and getting such data is difficult for the GOI itself....unless India comes up with a way to identify these groups..there is no accurate way to come up with figures.

Thirdly, India was not a rich country after 1947..its population being so huge would take decades to show considerable improvement. India's economy only started to rise and rise consistently only in the last decade..we were not rich from start...They say it takes a whole generation for one family to rise from the poor to the lower middle class, which usually is only because of education...

Now look at the money spent on education among the different classes in this report..India is higher compared to other south Asian countries, then look at the emergence of middle class into 2030..India is always in the top1 and top3.

For the sake of better comparison shall we include all other south asian countries in such type of analysis from now on? and not just India and Pakistan? Sincere request to Mr. Haq

 

[majesticpankaj]

this is the most recent ranking conducted by Newsweek magazine on the basis of five parameters

education
health
quality of life
political dynamism
political environment

srilanka is at 66
india is at 78
bangladesh is at 88
pakistan is at 89

Interactive Infographic of the World's Best Countries - Newsweek

 

[RiazHaq]

Critics often offer snapshots of economic data for this year or last, not trends over a period of time that account for the creation and expansion of middle class in a nation.

If you look at several decades worth of data since independence, Pakistan's CAGR has been well ahead of India's.

Even though Pakistan did not have a middle class to speak of in 1947, it has been urbanizing and growing its middle class faster over the last 60 years. And now it is much more urbanized than India and it has a much larger middle class.

In a recent piece titled "Failed state? Try Pakistan's M2 motorway", Alistair Scrutton of Reuters summed it up as follows:

It (M2) puts paid to what's on offer in Pakistan's traditional foe and emerging economic giant India, where village culture stubbornly refuses to cede to even the most modern motorways, making them battlegrounds of rickshaws, lorries and cows.

There are many things in Pakistan that don't get into the news. Daily life, for one. Pakistani hospitality to strangers, foreigners like myself included, is another. The M2 is another sign that all is not what it appears in Pakistan, that much lies hidden behind the bad news.


Haq's Musings: Pakistan's Infrastructure and M2 Motorway

 

[RiazHaq]

this is the most recent ranking conducted by Newsweek magazine on the basis of five parameters

education
health
quality of life
political dynamism
political environment

srilanka is at 66
india is at 78
bangladesh is at 88
pakistan is at 89

Interactive Infographic of the World's Best Countries - Newsweek

Here are the rankings for India and Pakistan:

India...Pakistan

88........86........Education

82........85.......Health

87........85.......Quality of Life

38........62.....Economic Dynamism

48........99.......Political Env.

78........89.......Overall

Pakistan is ahead of India in education and quality of life, as judged by Newsweek.

Obviously, Newsweek rankers have a bias for democracy, no mater how flawed, that puts India significantly ahead of Pakistan in political environment and helps its overall ranking. And the fact that Pakistan has been hugely demonized by the western media has also hurt its standing.

But the killers for Pakistan rankings are its corrupt and incompetent politicians and the economic ruin they have wrought over the last two years.

 

[RiazHaq]

A Starter for Mr. Haq's next Dinner :

Skilled labour shortage impeding high tech investment : experts

LAHORE: Vocational training experts have urged the government to increase spending on technical education as scarcity of skilled labour is impeding high tech investment in Pakistan as country is currently producing 210,000 skilled workers annually against demand of one million.

Technical Education and Vocational Training Authority former chairman Mohsin Syed said that even during the accelerated growth period of 2002-2007 the number of green projects could be counted on fingers because investors did not find the required skills available among the workers to run up modern efficient plants.

In fact he added even the existing industries have to compromise on the skill standards because of unavailability of competent staff. “They recruit semi skilled workers and provide them on job training” he said adding that low education among most of them impedes imparting full skills.

Member board of management TEVTA MI Khurram said that technical and vocational enrollment is only 1.3 per cent among the age group of 11-17 which is even less than Bangladesh where the enrolment is 1.6 per cent.

He said 41.3 per cent of same age group are enrolled in technical and vocational education in Australia, 32.5 per cent in Switzerland, 30.3 per cent in Egypt 20.6 per cent in Turkey, 12.8 per cent in Korea, 12.7 per cent in Japan 8.3 per cent in Iran and 5.9 per cent in Malaysia.

He deplored that successive governments failed to increase the enrollment in technical and vocational institutes in past one decade.

He said owing to low skills, the bulk of production and exports remain in low-value added and low technology manufactured goods.

Chairman TEVTA Saeed Alvi said that there is huge demand in Pakistan’s labour market for Bachelor of Technology, diploma of associate engineers, workers with apprenticeship training certificates or having vocational training, vocational diploma/certificate.

He said TEVTA has 481 training centres that include 29 technical training institutes and colleges, 314 vocational training centres, 118 commerce education colleges and centres, 17 service centres specialised institutions and 3 teachers training centres.

These centres produce 112,000 skilled persons annually out of which 45,000 are commerce degree or diploma holders for which there is low demand.

The News found that the country produces around 234,000 skilled workers a year out of which 112,000 are rolled out by TEVTA and 15,000 by Punjab Vocational Training Council in Punjab.
The government institutes in Sindh, Khyber Pakhtunkhaw and Balochistan produce 3730, 3300 and 1730 skilled workers annually.

Private sector including on job training to apprentices produce 70000 skilled workers while 25000 workers get training on contractual basis.

Alvi said a grave mismatch between demand and quality skills is clear from recent labour surveys, which indicate that 59.2 percent of the unemployed are literate or semi-literate.

Around 33.6 per cent of the labour force possesses less than a year of education, while 17 per cent has less than eight years of schooling. A major mismatch between desired and actual quality levels and relevance Pakistan’s growth and development is limited by lack of competence in both hard and soft skills, he added.

Now! Now!! we must await for an Amusing Response!!!

Feudalism is a scourge that has badly hurt rural Pakistanis, and kept overall literacy rate low.

But education index is more than literacy; e.g. it also looks at years of schooling for those who are literate.

Avg number of years of schooling is 13 years in Pakistan and 10 years in India.

The increasing urbanization and greater access to education are already helping to improve the situation, currently putting Pakistan slightly ahead of India in UNDP education index.

 

[majesticpankaj]

Here are the rankings for India and Pakistan:

India...Pakistan

88........86........Education

82........85.......Health

87........85.......Quality of Life

38........62.....Economic Dynamism

48........99.......Political Env.

78........89.......Overall

Pakistan is ahead of India in education and quality of life, as judged by Newsweek.

Obviously, Newsweek rankers have a bias for democracy, no mater how flawed, that puts India significantly ahead of Pakistan in political environment and helps its overall ranking. And the fact that Pakistan has been hugely demonized by the western media has also hurt its standing.

But the killers for Pakistan rankings are its corrupt and incompetent politicians and the economic ruin they have wrought over the last two years.

what rubbish to say that they are biased...u are also a democracy. did u forget?? lol
now talk about in absolute term

india pakistan

66.20 66.88.......education

51.71 49.29........health

47.44 49.48.........quality of life

49.99 41.53.........economic dynamism

63.13 28.19.........political environment


now if you carefully the difference in first three is not that significant..more or less both are at the same level. but in later two there is significant difference.
so you cannot say that pakistan is way ahead of us. they are little better at quality of life front, but at economic and political front they suck. economic front is the gateway of growth at all front.

 

[muse]

Mr. Haq is villified, and some offer information seeking to change the focus of the thread -- Are the ADB numbers inaccurate, fudged, just plain wrong, lies? If yes, who is responsible? Indian friends will, I am sure focus on the issue - after all that's what the thread is about, -- I am sure they will not seek to derail it by attemting to change the focus.

And if the numbers really are ADB numbers, What then?? Will some Indian friends curse the and villify the ADB?

How cherished must be some of these ideas some of our Indian friends hold so dear, that when these ideas are challeneged by the ADB, our friends refer to it as a Joke -- Or are these really lies??

Who will prove that these are not ADB's findings?