6 Rafale fighters to land in India on April 28, 4 more in May: Official

[Caprxl]

Pakistan does not have anything anywhere near this level of tech right now

 

[VkdIndian]

Rafale + Spectra + AESA radar + Meteor >> PAF F-16 Block 52 or JF-17 Block 2.
Rafale + Spectra + AESA radar + Meteor > JF-17 Block 3.

Pakistan does not have anything anywhere near this level of tech right now and the JF-17 Block 3 will be somewhat inferior as well. JF-17 Block 3 does have the advantage of being cheaper to buy and operate.

Russian planes like SU-30MKI are junk as their radars, electronics and missiles have fallen massively behind the West over the last 30 years - even China is better in this area now.

An unbiased view of the matter.

Mixed with jingoism by members of both the countries it is a different story all together.
SU-30 at its induction was leagues ahead of other ac in this region. However, arrival of AMRAMs in PAF turned the tables.
PAF does take the crown for being a little more dynamic in creating that asymmetry.

But I guess the game is on. IAF under the current dispensation is on its toes and trying to recover lost ground under multiple Congress governments.

I am sure PAF is also working to create an asymmetry.
AT this moment IAF seems to have gained back that edge.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

Not really just till recently HAL were chunning out su30

Are you saying the IAF planners are so idiotic that they absolutely didnt no block production????

Block production?

 

[Yasser76]

An unbiased view of the matter.

Mixed with jingoism by members of both the countries it is a different story all together.
SU-30 at its induction was leagues ahead of other ac in this region. However, arrival of AMRAMs in PAF turned the tables.
PAF does take the crown for being a little more dynamic in creating that asymmetry.

But I guess the game is on. IAF under the current dispensation is on its toes and trying to recover lost ground under multiple Congress governments.

I am sure PAF is also working to create an asymmetry.
AT this moment IAF seems to have gained back that edge.

That is actually a fair assessment but you seem to be counting things simply in terms of fighter v fighter. As we know it does not work like this, especially these days, A fighter is part of an overall system that needs to work seamlessly together. It will take some time for this to happen with Rafale (often 2 years plus), another fact is all the things that go into making the system work. AEW, EW, refullers, CSAR etc and consistantly training with all of this as a package., In this regard I think IAF still needs catching up to do.

5 AEW planes and 6 refuellers? 2 EW planes? Major combined exercise this year cancelled.

Granted in terms of a BVR missile, Meteor (when it enters IAF) will give it an edge in this area, but by no means has the symmetry changed that radically.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

That is actually a fair assessment but you seem to be counting things simply in terms of fighter v fighter. As we know it does not work like this, especially these days, A fighter is part of an overall system that needs to work seamlessly together. It will take some time for this to happen with Rafale (often 2 years plus), another fact is all the things that go into making the system work. AEW, EW, refullers, CSAR etc and consistantly training with all of this as a package., In this regard I think IAF still needs catching up to do.

5 AEW planes and 6 refuellers? 2 EW planes? Major combined exercise this year cancelled.

Granted in terms of a BVR missile, Meteor (when it enters IAF) will give it an edge in this area, but by no means has the symmetry changed that radically.

Astra MK2 will be tested soon.

 

[Yasser76]

Astra MK2 will be tested soon.

That really does not mean anything until it is integrated, ordered and in service with a proven capability. Meteor is.

 

[HostileInsurgent]

That really does not mean anything until it is integrated, ordered and in service with a proven capability. Meteor is.

Meteor is already inducted and operational.

 

[VkdIndian]

That is actually a fair assessment but you seem to be counting things simply in terms of fighter v fighter. As we know it does not work like this, especially these days, A fighter is part of an overall system that needs to work seamlessly together. It will take some time for this to happen with Rafale (often 2 years plus), another fact is all the things that go into making the system work. AEW, EW, refullers, CSAR etc and consistantly training with all of this as a package., In this regard I think IAF still needs catching up to do.

5 AEW planes and 6 refuellers? 2 EW planes? Major combined exercise this year cancelled.

In terms of these force multipliers, yes PAF has an edge. Integration of new assets in the ecosystem does take time and training. Rafale may not be able to fully exploit its capability in the immediate future. Meteor has made a difference but not as large in absolute terms.

But I didn’t mean Rafale only. Fair amount of work has also gone in SU-30 to regain the edge it had in pre-AMRAAM days. Secure communication has been one weak area with IAF. That is already under implementation.

I do grant PAF in being more nimble on its feet while doing acquisitions. That is partly because defence forces in Pakistan have a big say when they want to do something.

Indian bureaucracy is in a league of itself. The current government, IAF and babus too seem to be working for the common cause this time. Mindset seems to have changed at leadership level in various organisations. The results might be visible in the near future.

Bottom line - Rafale has not yet got the edge that would have come purely due to the entire package.

 

[Yasser76]

In terms of these force multipliers, yes PAF has an edge. Integration of new assets in the ecosystem does take time and training. Rafale may not be able to fully exploit its capability in the immediate future. Meteor has made a difference but not as large in absolute terms.

But I didn’t mean Rafale only. Fair amount of work has also gone in SU-30 to regain the edge it had in pre-AMRAAM days. Secure communication has been one weak area with IAF. That is already under implementation.

I do grant PAF in being more nimble on its feet while doing acquisitions. That is partly because defence forces in Pakistan have a big say when they want to do something.

Indian bureaucracy is in a league of itself. The current government, IAF and babus too seem to be working for the common cause.

Bottom line - Rafale has not yet got the edge that would have come purely due to the entire package.

Yes, agree, IAF would be very foolish not to have learnt it's lessons and it can introduce new capabilities to South Asia (like it did with AEW and BVR)

However you hit the nail on the head. PAF will push back asymmertically, PAF would be foolish to try and out number the IAF even in AEW and EW where it has a distinct advantage, IAF will probably catch up.

PAF planning is no longer focused on countering Rafale and Meteor with another Jet and missile only

By all reports focus is also on Cyber warfare, AI combined with EW and stealth/counter stealth. I expect (with Chinese help) great strides here, China also happens to be a world leader in these areas.

Very effective EW can blind a Rafale and it's missiles. Cyber warfare can degrade IAF's ability to communicate. Stealth will get us past S-400 defences (if good enough).

These are the areas PAF will hit back with.....

 

[VkdIndian]

By all reports focus is also on Cyber warfare, AI combined with EW and stealth/counter stealth. I expect (with Chinese help) great strides here, China also happens to be a world leader in these areas.

Very effective EW can blind a Rafale and it's missiles. Cyber warfare can degrade IAF's ability to communicate. Stealth will get us past S-400 defences (if good enough).

These are the areas PAF will hit back with.....

You may have inside info of how PAF is planning to create asymmetry, but I don’t have that insight on the IAF.

Recent skirmish in Azerbaijan vs Armenia was one very good example of creating an asymmetry with low cost but highly effective.

By all reports focus is also on Cyber warfare, AI combined with EW and stealth/counter stealth. I expect (with Chinese help) great strides here, China also happens to be a world leader in these areas.

Yes, China is a concern for India. I am sure Indian Defence Forces must be working on it. There have been reports of Chinese attempts at hacking few critical services in India. That must have triggered some action.
We do have an issue of being a slow starter. But once started things do fetch up.
Even QUAD may play a role in that. So it wouldn’t be advantage Pakistan at this stage. Actual extent of who has an edge would remain unknown considering darkness around these matters.

Key would remain an asymmetry in any conflict. That has been ever since warfare started. It has changed colours and means with times.

How, what, where and who would depend on many factors. These are not known to very many people outside of the actual players.

So, I wouldn’t give it to you either.

 

[Windjammer]

Rafale + Spectra + AESA radar + Meteor >> PAF F-16 Block 52 or JF-17 Block 2.
Rafale + Spectra + AESA radar + Meteor > JF-17 Block 3.

Pakistan does not have anything anywhere near this level of tech right now and the JF-17 Block 3 will be somewhat inferior as well. JF-17 Block 3 does have the advantage of being cheaper to buy and operate.

Russian planes like SU-30MKI are junk as their radars, electronics and missiles have fallen massively behind the West over the last 30 years - even China is better in this area now.

Albeit XYZ does count in air warfare but more than that what matters is how you utilise your capabilities and get the best out of what is at your disposal.....one could argue that the F-16 can carry Six Air to Air Missiles where as the SU-30 can be armed with up to a Dozen such weapons but when the test came, it took just a single AMRAAM to neutralise this advantage. PAF already operates several Squadrons of F-16s including one of Block-52 Vipers....that don't even have an AESA Radar.....but sometimes back, when news emerged that US may supply another 8 of these jets to Pakistan.....they caused more anxiety and depression to Indians that even the Rafales couldn't counter. The world saw how the IAF was waving a piece of AMRAAM and protesting to the Americans.....on the contrary did you see Pakistan complain to say Russia or France ....this is what's called having confidence in your capability.....something no amount of gadgets can give or guarantee.

 

[Invicta]

In terms of these force multipliers, yes PAF has an edge. Integration of new assets in the ecosystem does take time and training. Rafale may not be able to fully exploit its capability in the immediate future. Meteor has made a difference but not as large in absolute terms.

But I didn’t mean Rafale only. Fair amount of work has also gone in SU-30 to regain the edge it had in pre-AMRAAM days. Secure communication has been one weak area with IAF. That is already under implementation.

I do grant PAF in being more nimble on its feet while doing acquisitions. That is partly because defence forces in Pakistan have a big say when they want to do something.

Indian bureaucracy is in a league of itself. The current government, IAF and babus too seem to be working for the common cause.

Bottom line - Rafale has not yet got the edge that would have come purely due to the entire package.

It is more than an edge they have complete superiority in terms of cross platform integration. IAF spent its money diversifying with multiple platforms this looks good on paper. PAF on the contrary spent intelligently and went for a netcentric air force, old platforms but highly integrated. Result was the complete disarray of IAF in Feb clash.

PAF 75 F-16's with 7 SAAB 2000 AEWC's, 135 JF-17's with 4 Y8F's and cross compatibility with SAABs plus the mirages. That is a potent mixture, IAF will need to wait a while before it can match PAF in numbers of net centric capable fighters across different platform, this is IAF's Achilles heel, too many different platforms and very little compatibility between them.

Rafael is a mis-step they could have increased their lethality ten fold by investing in AWEC that allows them to control their European and Russian fighters/equipment under one AEWC platform.

 

[Yasser76]

You may have inside info of how PAF is planning to create asymmetry, but I don’t have that insight on the IAF.

Recent skirmish in Azerbaijan vs Armenia was one very good example of creating an asymmetry with low cost but highly effective.


Yes, China is a concern for India. I am sure Indian Defence Forces must be working on it. There have been reports of Chinese attempts at hacking few critical services in India. That must have triggered some action.
We do have an issue of being a slow starter. But once started things do fetch up.
Even QUAD may play a role in that. So it wouldn’t be advantage Pakistan at this stage. Actual extent of who has an edge would remain unknown considering darkness around these matters.

Key would remain an asymmetry in any conflict. That has been ever since warfare started. It has changed colours and means with times.

How, what, where and who would depend on many factors. These are not known to very many people outside of the actual players.

So, I wouldn’t give it to you either.

No special insights on PAF, it's investment in AI integrated EW and AZM are from public statements.

It is more than an edge they have complete superiority in terms of cross platform integration. IAF spent its money diversifying with multiple platforms this looks good on paper. PAF on the contrary spent intelligently and went for a netcentric air force, old platforms but highly integrated. Result was the complete disarray of IAF in Feb clash.

PAF 75 F-16's with 7 SAAB 2000 AEWC's, 135 JF-17's with 4 Y8F's and cross compatibility with SAABs plus the mirages. That is a potent mixture, IAF will need to wait a while before it can match PAF in numbers of net centric capable fighters across different platform, this is IAF's Achilles heel, too many different platforms and very little compatibility between them.

Rafael is a mis-step they could have increased their lethality ten fold by investing in AWEC that allows them to control their European and Russian fighters/equipment under one AEWC platform.

Yeah, but then they would not have pocketed $1 Million for some plane "models".....

 

[Windjammer]

Rafales are medium weight jets so not comparable to MKIs.

Not sure what your point is.....they both represent IAF.

 

[VkdIndian]

PAF 75 F-16's with 7 SAAB 2000 AEWC's, 135 JF-17's with 4 Y8F's and cross compatibility with SAABs plus the mirages. That is a potent mixture, IAF will need to wait a while before it can match PAF in numbers of net centric capable fighters across different platform, this is IAF's Achilles heel, too many different platforms and very little compatibility between them.

PAF has done good work there. Integrating platforms from various countries and types seamlessly.

India also has done the same. Though there were few weak links. Secure communication was one glaring deficiency. That is being addressed at a war footing. Once that happens it wouldn’t be short on that area.

Rafael is a mis-step they could have increased their lethality ten fold by investing in AWEC that allows them to control their European and Russian fighters/equipment under one AEWC platform.

Rafale was not a misstep. It was required badly to make up for dwindling numbers.
AEW and AWACS vs Rafale are two different angles. What would have AEWC achieved without potent fighters?

I do commend Pakistan for acquiring its AEW fleet. Rather than trying to get the best equipment available they decided to get something which though not the best but decent enough and available at a good price. These numbers give round the clock cover though not as deep as Indian AWACS. 24 x7 surveillance I guess is not available with the IAF.

IAF started with very potent platforms for AWACS but couldn’t build on it further due to involvement of DRDO that promised the moon. Netra is a decent platform but inadequate in numbers.

Indian Navy has been a little smarter in its approach and has got decent number of P8Is.

Yes, IAF would take some more time to get these force multipliers. Till then it would need to be smart in exploiting the assets that it has. Arrival of S-400 and integration of Astra MK II would be a game changer. IAF has been working to create a layered AIr Defence network. It was lagging but has caught up now and is going to pose a serious threat to any adversary.
Astra would give fighters other than Rafale a potent threat to PAF considering that AMRAAMs can be carried only by F-16.

At this time it is advantage PAF in some areas and IAF in few others.