5th Gen Aircraft Maybe Impotent Against A Large Enemy W/out A Complimentary Heavy Strike Aircraft

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

For some reason there has been a misconception growing amongst the posters that a 5th gen aircraft if the right choice for paf without getting a heavy strike aircraft. The assumption is that all the problems will be resolved and solved after their induction. Well the reality is that is when the real problems will pop up.

5th gen fighter aircraft is not the end of the conventional air combat but the begining of technical breakthrough in the world of air combat as we know of. The roles of a 5th gen aircraft are multiple---it ingresses closer / into the enemy territory without being detected---on its own it can launch missiles without a fear of full detection---its electronic gear and sensors giving it protection against enemy strike back and recognition---its ability to act as a mini awacs right in the middle of the battle---without being seen---its ability to guide electronically other aircraft to the target---its ability to launch the weaponery of other complimentary aircraft from a standoff range at the enemy and at the enemy's assets.

The last part is where the heavy strike aircraft becomes indespensable---because of its limited weight carrying ability---the 5th gen is only capable to do so much. Where the 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft may not be able to get closer to the enemy assets or they may get cloe but with losses---the 5th gen aircraft would be playing the most important role---it would take away the level of threat of immediate recognition as it guides its complimentary aircraft into position to launch their assets and fly away.

Now as the cost of the operation is pretty heavy---so the utility of the aircraft needs to be appropriate as well. So---when facing an enemy that is twice as large the opportunity to slip thru needs to be maximized to the maximum---. For that reason---the light aircraft will not serve the purpose well---.

The air battle scenario on youtube of the F22 fighter aircraft getting help from BVR equipped B1 bombers that @Aamir Hussain posted over here should have been an eye opener for pakistanis---the role and objective of the aircraft doing what it did was clear as daylight.

It showed the strengths of the F22---and it clearly showed the weaknesses of the F22 as well---it also showed the utility of the F22 in a new format where one pilot may use the assets of multiple aircraft.

The most important thing over here is that complimentary aircraft need to have a lots of assets at hand to take advantage of the opportunity presented---.

Just because we only saw the video of the B1 bomber's load being utilized by the F22 pilot---it does not mean that the load of the B52 is not in the reach of the F22 pilot----now just imagine the B52 unleashing its load from standoff distances as being guided by the F22 pilot who is right in the arena---the enemy does not even know from where the strike is coming from before the B52 is gone.

The readers must understand---that when you buy a weapons system---it is not for show---it is not what you wanted to buy----but it is to counter what the enemy has and to negate their strength. MastanKhan

@Khafee @Irfan Baloch

 

[Zarvan]

Hi,

For some reason there has been a misconception growing amongst the posters that a 5th gen aircraft if the right choice for paf without getting a heavy strike aircraft. The assumption is that all the problems will be resolved and solved after their induction. Well the reality is that is when the real problems will pop up.

5th gen fighter aircraft is not the end of the conventional air combat but the begining of technical breakthrough in the world of air combat as we know of. The roles of a 5th gen aircraft are multiple---it ingresses closer / into the enemy territory without being detected---on its own it can launch missiles without a fear of full detection---its electronic gear and sensors giving it protection against enemy strike back and recognition---its ability to act as a mini awacs right in the middle of the battle---without being seen---its ability to guide electronically other aircraft to the target---its ability to launch the weaponery of other complimentary aircraft from a standoff range at the enemy and at the enemy's assets.

The last part is where the heavy strike aircraft becomes indespensable---because of its limited weight carrying ability---the 5th gen is only capable to do so much. Where the 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft may not be able to get closer to the enemy assets or they may get cloe but with losses---the 5th gen aircraft would be playing the most important role---it would take away the level of threat of immediate recognition as it guides its complimentary aircraft into position to launch their assets and fly away.

Now as the cost of the operation is pretty heavy---so the utility of the aircraft needs to be appropriate as well. So---when facing an enemy that is twice as large the opportunity to slip thru needs to be maximized to the maximum---. For that reason---the light aircraft will not serve the purpose well---.

The air battle scenario on youtube of the F22 fighter aircraft getting help from BVR equipped B1 bombers that @Aamir Hussain posted over here should have been an eye opener for pakistanis---the role and objective of the aircraft doing what it did was clear as daylight.

It showed the strengths of the F22---and it clearly showed the weaknesses of the F22 as well---it also showed the utility of the F22 in a new format where one pilot may use the assets of multiple aircraft.

The most important thing over here is that complimentary aircraft need to have a lots of assets at hand to take advantage of the opportunity presented---.

Just because we only saw the video of the B1 bomber's load being utilized by the F22 pilot---it does not mean that the load of the B52 is not in the reach of the F22 pilot----now just imagine the B52 unleashing its load from standoff distances as being guided by the F22 pilot who is right in the arena---the enemy does not even know from where the strike is coming from before the B52 is gone.

The readers must understand---that when you buy a weapons system---it is not for show---it is not what you wanted to buy----but it is to counter what the enemy has and to negate their strength. MastanKhan

Sir we lack budget other wise as policy matter I agree with you we need two heavy Fighter Jets one should be Air Superiority and other should be bomber. In other words we need Jets like SU-35 and SU-34 in our Air Force.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir we lack budget other wise as policy matter I agree with you we need two heavy Fighter Jets one should be Air Superiority and other should be bomber. In other words we need Jets like SU-35 and SU-34 in our Air Force.

Sir,

Please don't talk about budget---let us keep harping about the need---let them worry about the budget---that is not our problem---.

If they stop stealing money---the funds would be available.

 

[Zarvan]

Sir,

Please don't talk about budget---let us keep harping about the need---let them worry about the budget---that is not our problem---.

If they stop stealing money---the funds would be available.

Still Sir budget is what shatters our dreams and goals unfortunately but as we are helping China get CPEC and we need to have good relations with Middle East once again and may be get a massive defence package from entire GCC combined. I mean from Qatar and Bahrain and UAE and KSA. Than we can do lot of stuff specially for our Air Force and Navy. As Air Force and Navy would get better and more stronger and also bigger we can provide security to GCC with more ease.

 

[MastanKhan]

Still Sir budget is what shatters our dreams and goals unfortunately but as we are helping China get CPEC and we need to have good relations with Middle East once again and may be get a massive defence package from entire GCC combined. I mean from Qatar and Bahrain and UAE and KSA. Than we can do lot of stuff specially for our Air Force and Navy. As Air Force and Navy would get better and more stronger and also bigger we can provide security to GCC with more ease.

Hi,

Talking about funds is like SOB STORY on an auto rewind record player---a RUNDY RONA---. The thread is a serious thread--talking about strategic and tactical issues---.

If you or other readers are not sitting in the room where budget discussions are taking place---please don't bring the budget issue here---.

Discuss the merits and demerits---without bringing in the cash part---please. Thank you.

 

[Zarvan]

Sir, there are many B52 in Arizona...... you can repair and send few

View attachment 297050


As per 5thG aircraft ........ I believe we will be able to utilize J31 as joint project just like we are doing in case of Jf17.......
We will simply use airframe (high use of composite) from China..... while all other stuff, like Engine, Radar, IRST, Avionics, ECM, Weapons etc etc will be of our choice...... we can buy and integrate these systems from our friends in Europe, Africa and Asia....... providing us a lot of flexibility of choice......
We will have a "heavy strike+Maritime" aircraft of our own....... how is that?
And if air superiority fighter is really a crucial demand...... we can focus on Turkish TFX right after Jf31........ and use it for dominating the skies........ PROBLEM SOLVED


Money is big issue though
Otherwise we have plenty of options .....

This is way to big we need a bomber like SU-34 or JH-7 B or may be F-15 latest model. Yes budget is the issue still if let say a miracle happens and our budget massively increases than what our policy should be we are discussing that. In my opinion we should go for a bomber also.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, there are many B52 in Arizona...... you can repair and send few

View attachment 297050


As per 5thG aircraft ........ I believe we will be able to utilize J31 as joint project just like we are doing in case of Jf17.......
We will simply use airframe (high use of composite) from China..... while all other stuff, like Engine, Radar, IRST, Avionics, ECM, Weapons etc etc will be of our choice...... we can buy and integrate these systems from our friends in Europe, Africa and Asia....... providing us a lot of flexibility of choice......
We will have a "heavy strike+Maritime" aircraft of our own....... how is that?
And if air superiority fighter is really a crucial demand...... we can focus on Turkish TFX right after Jf31........ and use it for dominating the skies........ PROBLEM SOLVED


Money is big issue though
Otherwise we have plenty of options .....

What was

What it is

Weapons Load

B-52 with six armed nuclear missiles

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

A strike aircraft to replace the Mirages would be Eurofighter. Availability and affordability are separate issues, but EF Typhoon would be a suitable platform with qualified weapon suite to meet the Pakistani requirement.

 

[Nattmara]

Post intelligent---

What was
View attachment 297052

No, it still looks like that. This B-52 has been flying over Norway as part of Cold Response 2016 - an exercise that is currently ongoing as of 3/6/16, so the photos show what the B-52 is, not what it was.

Credit to the American Military Forum's Technofox for the (first two) photos:

What it is

View attachment 297053

This one's actually a B-1B, they've been going through upgrades recently including a new cockpit and an upgraded AESA radar:

cockpit

Mission support systems

B-52 with six armed nuclear missiles

View attachment 297055

Unlike the cockpit, this is somewhere upgrades are happening on the B-52. They are getting new rotary launchers:

Their mission support systems have gone through upgrades too:

They are also getting software upgrades to support upcoming weapons like these MALD-J air launched decoy jammers/suicide anti-radiation missiles:

Packing a strategic bomber with A2A missiles is a working concept, as part of the "arsenal ship" platform that's mostly being discussed with A2G and A2Sh weapons, for negating China's A2/AD structure, but if the cost is right, it can be done with A2A missiles too. I don't believe it's progressed beyond a concept in the USAF though.

 

[MastanKhan]

b52 new cockpit pictures - Google Search

Here is the link to the new B52 cockpit

And here is what it leads to

B-52 Bomber Gets Its First New Communications System Since the 1960s | WIRED

 

[Nattmara]

b52 new cockpit pictures - Google Search

Here is the link to the new B52 cockpit

And here is what it leads to

B-52 Bomber Gets Its First New Communications System Since the 1960s | WIRED

Re-read the caption under the photo in the Wired article - it says:

Boeing’s CONECT system brings color screens and new technology to the stalwart B-52. Pictured here is the cockpit of the B1 bomber, equipped with a similar system.

It's a B-1B, not a B-52.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The purpose of the thread is not to show the new B52--but what the 5th gen aircraft will do with its fancy gadgets---and the fancy stuff that has been installed on the upgrade aircraft like the B52 and the B1 bombers----to support the F22 or the F35---.

It is also about a smaller airforce facing a much larger enemy force---so how to make the best with the utility of a 5th gen aircraft and a heavy loaded strike aircraft or a bomber.

Re-read the caption under the photo in the Wired article - it says:

Boeing’s CONECT system brings color screens and new technology to the stalwart B-52. Pictured here is the cockpit of the B1 bomber, equipped with a similar system.

It's a B-1B, not a B-52.

So---what is the BIG deal-----it says what "
Boeing’s CONECT system brings color screens and new technology to the stalwart B-52. Pictured here is the cockpit of the B1 bomber, equipped with a similar system ".

What that means is that the upgrade B52 has a similar cockpit and smiliar gadgets---.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

The purpose of the thread is not to show the new B52--but what the 5th gen aircraft will do with its fancy gadgets---and the fancy stuff that has been installed on the upgrade aircraft like the B52 and the B1 bombers----to support the F22 or the F35---.

It is also about a smaller airforce facing a much larger enemy force---so how to make the best with the utility of a 5th gen aircraft and a heavy loaded strike aircraft or a bomber.

MK,

Pakistan's width isn't enough,
We maybe able to get our 5th generation assets in air, but they may not have a base to come back to.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK,

Pakistan's width isn't enough,
We maybe able to get our 5th generation assets in air, but they may not have a base to come back to.

Hi,

In a manner you are right----but again---with the right package and imminent threat to its under belly---there is a lot that you can do to the enemy---.


Just saw Twelve O'Clock High last night---starring Gregory Peck---. The day they bombed the BALL BEARING FACTORY in Germany---that was the begining of the end of the 2nd world war.

The mentality and utility has to be the same----. In a conventional war---if pakistan targets the right areas---it can smash india to a pulp----we will survive a conventional war---but indian economy will be decimated for eons to come.

Why do you think that they scream and holler out so loud that they will do this and they will do that to us---why is there so much yelling and shouting from their side---it is a tactical move to scare us----because they know that they are extremely vulnerable at certain places.

And if our air force was not led by COWARDS and INDECISIVE MANAGERS---it would be a different ball game.

 

[HAIDER]

War and insurgencies still fought with same old conventional weapons. Only tactics and command structure is changed. Its age of encountering insurgency, where small weapon and manned intelligence is life line of success. Even in Pak India proxy scenario, we see same situation. Where super duper weapons now has no role. Your future weapon is still a gun, strike drone and good manned intelligence and how effective is group of trained men to counter the enemy.