2 '45000' tons modified Vikrant aircraft carriers?

[PARIKRAMA]

So the question is , can a Rafale take off with full load from an aircraft carrier without catapults?

In Stobar carriers

Science says either full load less fuel take off and get a tanker to fill you up to brim mid air
OR
Less weapons load full tanks and mission targets goes down

Simulations conducted by Dassault show that the Rafale M is able, with no modification, to take-off from a ski-jump carrier

 

[Stag112]

I am not 100% convinced on the utility of CBGs. The power projection angle is plain wrong. Only the US can do it, not even USSR could. And not against a stong enemy too.

Our focus should be long endurance submarines to challenge the vast emerging surface fleet of China.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

It will not be 2 more Vikrants.

As already stated about the situation of IAC 2, its construction will take another 5 years to start. And it will take about 7 more years to get it into service. Till then what?
And IN realised this late 2014, or at least the outsiders came to know about it then.
What I can say is that IN at present is not looking for 2x45,000 tons ships, rather one 50,000 ton ship which can,Carry 40 multirole aircrafts , in addition to a requisite number of ASW, AEW and transport helies, which will be considered a big enough load to carry out offensives.

And what more IN has had discussions with Italians Ficcantteri over it, so I am more or less assured about it. It should be announced when INS Vikrant starts its sea trails.

But what puts doubts on this in my mind is the fighters, people whom I have talked to have always mentioned 2 more squadrons of Fulcrums will likely be ordered, they haven't mentioned anything about Rafale M.

 

[$@rJen]

But @PARIKRAMA dude don't you think 2 AC's of vikrant kind is unnecessary!!! 1 more is k and build the Nuke carrier with EMALS

 

[Ankit Kumar]

But adding aircraft carriers is not enough , we need destroyers , frigates, ASW Corvettes, SSNs, SSKs along with ocean oilers to support the operations.

Our focus should be long endurance submarines to challenge the vast emerging surface fleet of China.

And good number of multirole frigates. I mean more likes of Talwar class.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

But what puts doubts on this in my mind is the fighters, people whom I have talked to have always mentioned 2 more squadrons of Fulcrums will likely be ordered, they haven't mentioned anything about Rafale M.

Reason being we have an option to order more fulcrums or Mig29K about 40-50 more. The plan for Rafales started steaming when the idea of 5 CBG plan was mooted by IN. That plan is the cause of all this.. the IAC1 first one initially may see again Mig29K deployments if we order more jets or we dont work out a plan for any other option.

But @PARIKRAMA dude don't you think 2 AC's of vikrant kind is unnecessary!!! 1 more is k and build the Nuke carrier with EMALS

No we need it.. the IN plan is 5 CBGs
1. INS Vikramaditya (1 in number eventually to be replaced by IAC 1 modified)
2. IAC 1 class (3 over time)
3. IAC 2 class (2 in numbers)

The idea is patrolling in
1. Western Coast Arabian Sea (Most probably IAC2)
2. Eastern Coast bay of Bengal (INS vikramaditya later IAC1)
3. Andaman and Nicobar (Most probably IAC2)
4. Seychelles- mauritius- Chabhar (IAC1)
5. Standby (IAC1)

This way 2 N ACC are in both east and west front. I dont see N ACC being deployed too much away from India owing to its strategic importance so West coast, east coast to Andaman may be max rotation.

At present Vikramaditya is doing more patrolling in Arabian Sea so you can see why a strategic shift is needed with multiple numbers..

But adding aircraft carriers is not enough , we need destroyers , frigates, ASW Corvettes, SSNs, SSKs along with ocean oilers to support the operations.

Fully agree.. A ACC means nothing alone.. we need dedicated CBGs and a lot more ships.. no doubt about it

 

[Archie]

Most people forget that a Carrier needs a battle group
As of now we can only support 1 CBG while having enough principle surface combatants left for other operations

When P15B And P17A class warships are inducted, we will be in a position to field 2 CBGs at the same time

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I don't see INS Vikramaditya being replaced by IAC 1 modified carrier.
I think we have a contract with Russia which enables us to take Russian help in maintaining the ship for 40 years.

 

[Hellfire]

Guys I was reading SP's Naval forces magazine( feb-march 2014) in which there was an article about Indian naval modernisation. I was surprised to read something about 2 follow on carriers which will be 45000 tons( modified Vikrant) though there was no mention of Ins Vishaal which is altogether a different type.
Words goes exactly like this...
"The follow on programme of 2 additional IAC of 45000 tons displacement has the approval of the government."

Wasn't the same order changed to include 01 x 45 KT and 01 x 90 KT (INS Vishal)? There is some rumor in Navy that there may be 02 x 90 KT on anvil whereas only 01 x 45KT

Most people forget that a Carrier needs a battle group
As of now we can only support 1 CBG while having enough principle surface combatants left for other operations

When P15B And P17A class warships are inducted, we will be in a position to field 2 CBGs at the same time

We already have two CBGs right now, there are assets in place for a third also. However, beyond that we will need to wait for the slated inductions over the next few years. Ultimately IN plans a 04 x CBG navy

 

[Archie]

Wasn't the same order changed to include 01 x 45 KT and 01 x 90 KT (INS Vishal)? There is some rumor in Navy that there may be 02 x 90 KT on anvil whereas only 01 x 45KT



We already have two CBGs right now, there are assets in place for a third also. However, beyond that we will need to wait for the slated inductions over the next few years. Ultimately IN plans a 04 x CBG navy

We have 2 carriers
Not 2 CBGs

A small CBG takes up 7-8 ships
Including frigates, Destroyers and Submarines apart from 1 Tanker

As of now out of 24 Frigates and Destroyers we only have 16-18 available for action at all time, remaining would be in maintenance or refit
If 10 of them are deployed with 2 CBGs, we will only be left with 6-8 frigates and Destroyers for other operations

 

[Stag112]

But adding aircraft carriers is not enough , we need destroyers , frigates, ASW Corvettes, SSNs, SSKs along with ocean oilers to support the operations.



And good number of multirole frigates. I mean more likes of Talwar class.

Yes. Typical management lesson, when you are not the big guy, dont act like it. Even USA will think twice before sending their carriers against China, and against Pakistan we dont need carriers. Then what purpose do they serve?

 

[Grevion]

Reason being we have an option to order more fulcrums or Mig29K about 40-50 more. The plan for Rafales started steaming when the idea of 5 CBG plan was mooted by IN. That plan is the cause of all this.. the IAC1 first one initially may see again Mig29K deployments if we order more jets or we dont work out a plan for any other option.



No we need it.. the IN plan is 5 CBGs
1. INS Vikramaditya (1 in number eventually to be replaced by IAC 1 modified)
2. IAC 1 class (3 over time)
3. IAC 2 class (2 in numbers)

The idea is patrolling in
1. Western Coast Arabian Sea (Most probably IAC2)
2. Eastern Coast bay of Bengal (INS vikramaditya later IAC1)
3. Andaman and Nicobar (Most probably IAC2)
4. Seychelles- mauritius- Chabhar (IAC1)
5. Standby (IAC1)

This way 2 N ACC are in both east and west front. I dont see N ACC being deployed too much away from India owing to its strategic importance so West coast, east coast to Andaman may be max rotation.

At present Vikramaditya is doing more patrolling in Arabian Sea so you can see why a strategic shift is needed with multiple numbers..



Fully agree.. A ACC means nothing alone.. we need dedicated CBGs and a lot more ships.. no doubt about it

Sir any specific timeline for realizing our dreams of having 5 CBGs for the IN.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I don't see INS Vikramaditya being replaced by IAC 1 modified carrier.
I think we have a contract with Russia which enables us to take Russian help in maintaining the ship for 40 years.

A ships max life expectancy is about 50 years.. Baku's hull was laid in 1982 and she entered Service in around 1987-88. Add 50 years to it we get 2032-33. Since a deep modification was carried out by Russians for transforming it to INS Vikramaditya before handing over to IN, the normal life expectancy is 20 years post which reduced ops or it becomes stand by carrier.
IN got it in 2013 so life expectancy will be 2033-34 post which reduced workload can see it go on for another 5-10 years max with major repairs and servicing.

IAC 1 handover expected in 2018-19 around follow on will take 2028-29 and next will take 2036-37, right in time around INS vikramaditya entering fag end of his service.

Sir any specific timeline for realizing our dreams of having 5 CBGs for the IN.

Officially IN wants such a case by 2030 which is impractical unless we build 2 carriers each in IAC 1 and IAC2 simultaneously. We can do it in IAC 1 perhaps but 2 N ACC will mean very deep USA cooperation for such a grand scale and a handsome return (buy F35s, sign LSA, CISMOA, etc etc).
In all practical sense 5 CBGs are very much possible by 2036-40 timeline assuming we build 1 carrier at a time with 5th carrier standby being INS vikramaditya in her last phase of her life in IN. Eventually her role will be taken over by IAC 1 follow on and number bolstered via N-ACC 2nd carrier coming to service

This timeline is also needed for our 6 SSN to come online for dedicated CBG making for 5 CBG or else it will be empty CBGs leaving us vulnerable.

 

[Grevion]

Yes. Typical management lesson, when you are not the big guy, dont act like it. Even USA will think twice before sending their carriers against China, and against Pakistan we dont need carriers. Then what purpose do they serve?

Power projection.
Have a strong presence in the Indian ocean(with Chinese and the US navy's increased activity in the Indian Ocean we must have a strong say in our own Backyard).
To have a true blue water navy.

Officially IN wants such a case by 2030 which is impractical unless we build 2 carriers each in IAC 1 and IAC2 simultaneously. We can do it in IAC 1 perhaps but 2 N ACC will mean very deep USA cooperation for such a grand scale and a handsome return (buy F35s, sign LSA, CISMOA, etc etc).
In all practical sense 5 CBGs are very much possible by 2036-40 timeline assuming we build 1 carrier at a time with 5th carrier standby being INS vikramaditya in her last phase of her life in IN. Eventually her role will be taken over by IAC 1 follow on and number bolstered via N-ACC 2nd carrier coming to service

This timeline is also needed for our 6 SSN to come online for dedicated CBG making for 5 CBG or else it will be empty CBGs leaving us vulnerable.

2040 looks a very sensible timeline as by then we will have a strong enough economy to bear the cost of operating 5 CBGs.

 

[Bharat_Bhakt]

Its a great news instead of waiting for new type of AC better to make a couple more of same but modified class with new EMALS and two full squadarn's of Rafale M and NLCA each with 6 rotary aircraft for S&R & ASW jobs and AWACS with a complement of 3 frigates and two missile boats and two distroyers man that gonna be some power at sea