Creation of Bangladesh: Myths Exploded by Dr. Junaid Ahmad

Doyalbaba said:

He is so scared of Indian domination that he would rather embrace 'ghulami' of his west pakistani master.You would never find him anything discussing related to strengthening our defence, economy or achieving means to self-defence if needed.Only solution he find is to accept west pakistani ghulami.

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He wants Bangladesh to get in on the Great Games. Become dominating and all.

The only question I fail to find an answer to is - why?
Bangladesh can focus on its economy, its people and make it a great place to live WITHOUT getting into the Great Games. Just like Singapore or Indonesia have. Their focus is their country and people. They avoid great games like plague. They keep their head down and give total attention to economy. That's why they have and are still continuing to progress.

Doyalbaba said:

Although I doubt the 3 million figure but I think killing were at least 5-10 lakhs.

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It is possibly a fair estimation...but still only an estimation. Plus how can one break down the figure into those killed by PA directly (innocents and combatants), those by PA allies (how many were inside/outside PA control and thus PA culpability in those), how many died in face of battle, how many through disease etc resulting from combat, how many through mistaken targeting, how many of the deaths were pro-Pakistan forces (both innocent and in combat) etc etc etc...

This is why 3 million figure should not have been used as a smothering blanket, but Nuremberg like trial post-war with solid international arbitration (at least from say USSR, India, Eastern Bloc, France, Romania, Brazil etc given cold war environment) where all information streams are processed as openly as possible (its not going to be 100% perfect of course and kangaroo court veneer will always be there given victors write history etc). Instead both BD and Indian leadership commited this propaganda blunder to get back to status quo and many murderers were let off scott free on both sides....and we will never know any real truth of the scale....and BD govt today quite wrongly still treats this number as unquestionable with liability of prosecution (and no comparable evidence chain like used by countries with holocaust denial statutes in the west+Israel).

I get everyone wanted to move on as quickly as possible, but actually there are these long term problems now in exactly that (moving on) because of the strategy adopted. Committing a bit more thought and finance back then to such would be saving much time, money and relations today (multiplied many times over).

Nilgiri said:

It is possibly a fair estimation...but still only an estimation. Plus how can one break down the figure into those killed by PA directly (innocents and combatants), those by PA allies (how many were inside/outside PA control and thus PA culpability in those), how many died in face of battle, how many through disease etc resulting from combat, how many through mistaken targeting, how many of the deaths were pro-Pakistan forces (both innocent and in combat) etc etc etc...

This is why 3 million figure should not have been used as a smothering blanket, but Nuremberg like trial post-war with solid international arbitration (at least from say USSR, India, Eastern Bloc, France, Romania, Brazil etc given cold war environment) where all information streams are processed as openly as possible (its not going to be 100% perfect of course and kangaroo court veneer will always be there given victors write history etc). Instead both BD and Indian leadership commited this propaganda blunder to get back to status quo and many murderers were let off scott free on both sides....and we will never know any real truth of the scale....and BD govt today quite wrongly still treats this number as unquestionable with liability of prosecution (and no comparable evidence chain like used by countries with holocaust denial statutes in the west+Israel).

I get everyone wanted to move on as quickly as possible, but actually there are these long term problems now in exactly that (moving on) because of the strategy adopted. Committing a bit more thought and finance back then to such would be saving much time, money and relations today (multiplied many times over).

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Post war Bangladesh was such in a horrible state that there was no time reflecting on what happened during the war. Post war govt. had enormous task of rehabilitating 10 million returnee,repairing infrastructure, there was food shortage,actually shortage of every thing,there was no money,either in Govt. treasury or in people's pocket,armed communist group were creating chaos.There was international pressure not to reflect on.Later came the military coups.So tell me how can we judge?

Doyalbaba said:

Post war Bangladesh was such in a horrible state that there was no time reflecting on what happened during the war. Post war govt. had enormous task of rehabilitating 10 million returnee,repairing infrastructure, there were food shortage,actually shortage of every thing,there was no money,either in Govt. treasury or in people's pocket,armed communist group were creating chaos.There was international pressure not to reflect on.Later came the military coups.So tell me how can we judge?

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Hence why you shouldn't have born such costs. Bangabondhu should have explored all options much more deeply. USSR was not exactly rolling in cash, but they were solidly in their superpower realm (the stagnation had not yet deeply started). Something should have been worked out to use USSR financing...i.e give USSR a higher political stake in BD, allow USSR to use it for its propaganda etc. Indira Gandhi was uninterested (and I blame her for that among many other things), but I feel the responsibility should have been taken by Mujib (rather than just acquiescing to I.G), I dont think at any point before or since, BD had a leader that united whole country behind him like that...so big players can truly listen and come to some agreement on how to pursue investigation and justice without straining BD financially. At least we will have more real answers and justice than we have today.

Nilgiri said:

.so big players can truly listen and come to some agreement on how to pursue investigation and justice without straining BD financially. At least we will have more real answers and justice than we have today.

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Problem is, AL has monopolized the narrative of liberation war for their political benefit.By projecting itself the sole flag bearer of values based on the spirit of liberation war and what it means to be a Bangladeshi that anyone who question that narrative is automatically branded as a pakistan sympathizer.Any genuine fact finding mission is required political accountability of accepting truth which may require to demolish some of the narrative they have built and propagating for the last 45 years.Another thing is, an acceptable narrative on 71 for all side of the divide require participation of all party in conflict in that given time,most importantly Pakistan much like West German co operation in Nuremberg trial.But relation with Pakistan is so bad with AL that I don't think it will be ever possible.Pakistan will also not participate in any investigation where their armed force will be painted in a very bad light and possibility of trial.So,unfortunately things will continue as they are.

Cherokee said:

Talk about munshi being a snake .

Original Title

Tofail hints at ban on Pak book on Liberation War

Munshi title
Creation of Bangladesh: Myths Exploded by Dr. Junaid Ahmad

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MBI Munshi said:

The title comes from the YouTube video and not the news article so no change of title.

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i just love the roasting that goes on in bangladesh forum... no other forum has this much of trolling with each other

Doyalbaba said:

Another thing is, an acceptable narrative on 71 for all side of the divide require participation of all party in conflict in that given time,most importantly Pakistan much like West German co operation in Nuremberg trial.

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German cooperation in Nuremberg trial happened because they were totally defeated and fully occupied. The surrender was fully unconditional. They had no choice but to cooperate with the occupation forces (West/East germany btw had not really taken shape politically yet while nuremberg was going on).

If say WW2 finished one year earlier (1944) because say Hitler was assassinated and conditional surrender was agreed upon by both sides (without occupation of Germany), I doubt there would have been something the scale of Nuremberg.

Similarly, any Nuremberg like trial that happened after 1971 would concern all the PA + razakar POW forces within independent Bangladesh (effectively E. Pakistan wing was totally defeated, unconditionally surrendered and was occupied by India + BD forces).

Those that were already back in W. Pakistan would be tried in absentia with the evidence available and then warrant released (just like it was done for many Nazi war criminals that fled/disappeared, many times their location was unknown).

Whether Pakistan state recognises such warrants (and cooperates) is whole different matter....but it would at least be a legal document released by an authority backed by due process.

This also includes document chains located within Pakistan that are subpoenaed by the post war tribunal. Of course Pakistan would not release them (same non-cooperation), but its important to officially request them. The trials would then basically continue to the best degree possible with what you have (evidence, testimony and access to all POWs surrendered in BD). It would have convicted a lot more people and answered many more questions about the atrocities than the pure emotional haze we have now on both sides. Something better than nothing philosophy basically.

Nilgiri said:

USSR was not exactly rolling in cash, but they were solidly in their superpower realm (the stagnation had not yet deeply started). Something should have been worked out to use USSR financing...i.e give USSR a higher political stake in BD, allow USSR to use it for its propaganda etc.

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It was the pro-USSR policy of then BD govt that created problems. BD opened diplomatic relationship with Castro's Cuba. It invited Castro to Dhaka. This infuriated the USA. It withheld aid and two shiploads of food were returned from Ctg. Port when BD refused to cut diplomatic relationship with Cuba. More than 300,000 people died of starvation.

Mujib became unpopular in a country where he used to be regarded as a semi-God. Some rogue elements in the army took advantage and killed him. BD needed US and western help. But, it had to do the opposite as its foreign policy had to be centered around India and the USSR because of 1971 alignment.

bluesky said:

It was the pro-USSR policy of then BD govt that created problems. BD opened diplomatic relationship with Castro's Cuba. It invited Castro to Dhaka. This infuriated the USA. It withheld aid and two shiploads of food were returned from Ctg. Port when BD refused to cut diplomatic relationship with Cuba. More than 300,000 people died of starvation.

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Should have gotten USSR foodgrain to cover the US shortfall. USSR provided substantial food aid in the 70s to places like Ethiopia and Angola from its granary reserves. So it seems like mismanagement on part of BD govt to me. Don't invite Castro ...without first securing food insurance from the political patronage source of Castro (USSR).

bluesky said:

People in BD are fond of following superstitions instead of religion, and they are fond of reading and believing the made in AL story instead of history.

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@ Hey @bluesky , how are you ? Long time no see !
@ So, bhai jan I saw the liberation war little bit. First I saw all Bhihares were killed in our locality and they were thrown on the near by river by taking them on a open truck. Exact figure I cannot say but nearer to 1000. Next day, 3 x Bihari villages were encircled and killed one by one. I heard each and every round. I heard 3 years back that in Bogra in one area all Bihares were killed and placed all dead bodies in one pond and it was full of dead human bodies. Once Pakistan Army came to Bogra they saw all these dead bodies. What to talk of Bogra in many places the Pakistan army saw all these killing with evidence. Niazi himself said alone in Bogra and Santhahar near about 16 thousand Bihares were killed.
@ Then came the Pakistan Army so called occupation Army. Initially they killed members of Awami Leaquer, Professors who were directly linked with AL, and others who suspected them. In our Thana on the 1st day 10 to 12 people were caught and killed on route. There after hardly any killing took place. In our village not a single one was killed by Pakistani Army. Our village was 5 Kilometer away from Pakistan Army Camp. Almost every day we used to see the Pakistani army going for patrolling.

Doyalbaba said:

Nazis wanted to be systematic,which slowed them down.It is much more rapid when you apply shoot at sight policy.Khmer Rouge killed 2 million out of 7 in a span of only 4 years.Killing 3 million out of 75 in a course of 9 months by an army and paramilitary numbering more than hundred thousands is not impossible when guided by ethnic and religious hatred. Although I doubt the 3 million figure but I think killing were at least 5-10 lakhs.This is what Time magazine estimated that time.10 million people fled the country in course of several months,compare this with Syrian refugee crisis,4 million in course of 5 years in a population of 23 million.That was the largest refugee crisis since the second world war.Was that possible if there was no large scale atrocity going on?

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If you guys believe in this kind of extravagant figure, then why do not you ask the AL govt to go the villages and Unions and count the figure? It may go up, even. Only the cowardice people of Bangladesh can weep on falsified figures.

Lon Nol Communists killed 1.7 million in 4 years. Go to the information about the then Cambodia to know under what circumstances and in what process it was done. Internet is full of this information. Look also for the Vietnam war. Please do not spread gossips if you love history. Lies and distortions have no place in History.

Well, crying babies are different. With only four sabre jets and twenty tanks PA troops killed 3 million, every day 11000 for 270 days? It must be the joke of this Century. This kind of weeping does not bring respect from other nations.

Md Akmal said:

@ Hey @bluesky , how are you ? Long time no see !
@ So, bhai jan I saw the liberation war little bit. First I saw all Bhihares were killed in our locality and they were thrown on the near by river by taking them on a open truck. Exact figure I cannot say but nearer to 1000. Next day, 3 x Bihari villages were encircled and killed one by one. I heard each and every round. I heard 3 years back that in Bogra in one area all Bihares were killed and placed all dead bodies in one pond and it was full of dead human bodies. Once Pakistan Army came to Bogra they saw all these dead bodies. What to talk of Bogra in many places the Pakistan army saw all these killing with evidence. Niazi himself said alone in Bogra and Santhahar near about 16 thousand Bihares were killed.
@ Then came the Pakistan Army so called occupation Army. Initially they killed members of Awami Leaquer, Professors who were directly linked with AL, and others who suspected them. In our Thana on the 1st day 10 to 12 people were caught and killed on route. There after hardly any killing took place. In our village not a single one was killed by Pakistani Army. Our village was 5 Kilometer away from Pakistan Army Camp. Almost every day we used to see the Pakistani army going for patrolling.

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I lived in Syedpur, Parbatipur, Rajshahi and Sirajganj as my father was a railway employee. I can say you are correct to say the Biharis were killed during the first few days. But, they also retaliated in similar manner when PA troops became strong. After the war, of course, the Bihari killing was too much. Bangali people do not consider these facts, instead they keep on crying victim. However, with all kinds of killing, such as AL, innocent people, Biharis and others like Jamaatis, the total killing may not be more than 100,000.

Here is a video on the killing by Pol Pot Khemer Rouge Communist army in Cambodia. They destroyed the cities, forced the citizens out and to the forced labor camps in the remote villages. They chose educated class in thousands, humiliated them and killed them. Some BD weeping people compare Cambodia killings with those in BD. In Cambodia people can physically see hundreds of thousands of skeletons and skulls. But, where are BD skeletons?

bluesky said:

Here is a video on the killing by Pol Pot Khemer Rouge Communist army in Cambodia. They destroyed the cities, forced the citizens out and to the forced labor camps in the remote villages. They chose educated class in thousands, humiliated them and killed them. Some BD weeping people compare Cambodia killings with those in BD. In Cambodia people can physically see hundreds of thousands of skeletons and skulls. But, where are BD skeletons?

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There are skeletons in both Buddhijibi graveyard and in Savar Memorial. We are muslim and nobody going to keep skulls for display.

Iqbal Ali said:

Losing Bangladesh was a blessing in disguise.

It has a lot of poverty and is overpopulated.

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Then why did you go through the biggest surrender of your coward force after ww2 ? What was wrong with a peaceful breakup in 1970 just like Czechoslovakia did? Why did your napak force branded as a genocidal for eternity? Why did you damaged your kashmir cause by signing Simla agreement with India? Can you answer?

bluesky said:

How many million skeletons are there in the Buddhijibi grave yard? It is about 22 or something. So, where are the others? I am talking about AL claim of 3 million. Are they in Savar or in Azimpur? It is only the AL higher ups who claim this stupid figure. Now, they have a law that says anybody disclaims this killing figure and does not believe in the AL crap, must be a Razakar and should be hanged.


The house servants of Sikhs should not talk craps in this sub-forum. Do you guys think we ever lament our decision to cut off all relationship with the people who even two days ago killed 100 people by bombing, all in the name of Islam. A terrorist country like yours should be a part of ISIS, and not BD. Just do not flatter yourself by talking big.


There have been similar warriors all the time. Now, I see all these big talking PDF keyboard warriors who panic at the thought of even a small bombardment by Burma.

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3 million is a number which came out of somebody's backside. I had seen that in american tv which was claiming millions long before Mujib.