• Sunday, January 26, 2020

Why Pakistan Loves the F-16 Fighting Falcon

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by maximuswarrior, Nov 30, 2019.

  1. maximuswarrior

    maximuswarrior BANNED

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    That might have been the case an era ago. Today we focus on JF-17 and newer blocks. The Americans should stop fantasizing about how important F-16 is for Pakistan. It is not anymore.
     
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  2. SABRE

    SABRE FULL MEMBER

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    The monument built by PAF to commemorate the 27th Feb operation also attributes the kills to F-16 with their AMRAAM.

    US did no one a favour. It invariably went into India's favour but the whole F-16 debacle might have been a making of our own. There are two accounts as to what actually happened that led to the sanctions over military sales, including the already paid for F-16s.

    * 1st account is by some Pakistani scholars, which states that George H. W. Bush wanted Pakistan to role back its nuclear weapons programme if it wanted military sales to continue.

    * 2nd account suggests that Bush did not ask for a role back but a commitment to not enrich uranium. To this effect in 1989 Benazir Bhutto/BB promised that enrichment will not take place and President Bush certified under the Pressler Amendment that Pakistan did not posses nuclear devices. Thereby allowing Pakistan to acquire more F-16s. But in 1990, the American satellite and intel. picked up enrichment related activities at KRL. Apparently (as per sources) enrichment had started without BB's knowledge. Of course, this did not sit well with the Bush Admin and Bush refused to certify that Pakistan did not posses nuclear devices. In short, whoever decided to continue with uranium enrichment without governmental consent is responsible for the whole F-16 debacle. People need to realize that Bush was in his first term and could not afford to have a tussle with the U.S. Congress and also risk the possibility of losing a 2nd term over such an issue (which he did nonetheless, but for entirely different reasons)

    Most well placed sources (but mostly Western) support the 2nd account. But it is difficult to say if enrichment had been restarted out of malice towards BB's government or genuine security concerns. The regional security situation was pretty fragile in 1990 with India-Pakistan relations deteriorated to the point of a possible armed conflict/war. In any case, not taking government in confidence certainly does not appear to have gone well.
     
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  3. Arsalan 345

    Arsalan 345 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Jf-17 can never become f-16 no matter what.f-16 is in a different league.jf-17 is low budget fighter jet.pakistan needs fighter jets like typhoon or gripen to counter indian jets.jf-17 might be good against mig-29,mig-27 and mig 21 but for su-30, you can't rely on jf-17.
     
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  4. bananarepublic

    bananarepublic FULL MEMBER

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    Jf-17 is a light weight fighter similar to f-20 tigershark or the early gripen..
    F16 is a medium weight fighter with similar roles to mig-29 and gripen NG..
    Jf-17 is meant to complement the f-16 and is to be used as a workhorse.

    A bit like how the USAF uses f-16 as the workhorse and a compliment to f-15.
    The USAF moved away from light weight fighter according to their needs.
     
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  5. Arsalan 345

    Arsalan 345 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Actually I read lots of details related to su-30 on indian defense forums and trust me,su-30 is seriously a threat.i believe only f-16 can Target su-30 easily but they have su-30 in large numbers.we need twin engine fighter jet with proper systems.western technology is not bad.i respect Chinese technology.if you want chinese jets,you can try j-11 and j-16 but there are lots of problems like licence problem.currently f-16 and f-15 are best fighter jets.i don't know why pakistan didn't selected f-15.new f-15s are impressive.

    There are different stories.some say that jf-17 handled mirage 2000 well on Feb 27. Some say it failed because they hint towards abhinandan mig-21.it is clear that abhinandan mig-21 came very close to some pakistani f-16s which was returning from indian airspace.how he managed to intrude is a good question.jf-17 was there to provide cover.all in all,indian fighter jets are real threats specially su-30.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  6. Syed Hammad Ahmed

    Syed Hammad Ahmed SENIOR MEMBER

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    PAF loves F 16s cuz they are the best
     
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  7. araz

    araz PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    People need to come off their perches and start analyzing instead of regurgitating mantras and national slogans.
    A. As Windy said the 16s are unparralleled in their performance.
    B. Given our experience PAF will dive in both arms to get more.
    C. We need to understand our fleet and the need to restore our aging fleet. Currently we cannot produce enough JFTs to take care of our needs. The establishment of infrastructure means no more than 1 squadron can be stood ip every year.
    D. PAF has established facilities to support upto 150 16s.
    Cons!
    E. US does want to keep some influence over the Pak Govtt and 16s are a good means of exerting it.
    A. The expense of buying and maintaining which currently seems beyond us. When @Khafee broke the new buy news he mentioned support from friendly hands to procure the equipment.
    B. Given limited resources we rightly want to divert them all towards developing the JFT &AZM programmes.
    C. US products come with strings attached and this is no longer acceptable to us.
    D. The risk of sanctions means PAF remains vary in spite of its liking for the platform.
    E. Interpretation of regional sutuation is that the likelihood of war is less than presumed in Sept and so PAF has decided to carry on.
    F. In relation to E our preference would be MLUed platforms which might be easily integratable into our infrastructure and not be cost prohibitive. USA on the other hand would want to sell us new products as it makes more money this way.
    In view of all the above although PAF LIKES the 16s the chances of acquisitions are dimming by the day. US might not want to give us the 70/72 Vipers so this might become a tug of war between wants and needs. I would venture PAF has the upper hand in this at the moment. It can negotiate with an upper hand both with the Chinese as well as the US to get what it wants at a price which suits us. So let us sit back and see what comes out of this topsy turvy game.
    A
     
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  8. bananarepublic

    bananarepublic FULL MEMBER

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    US doesn't sell f-15s to countries like Pakistan.
    Well just a side by side comparison makes the Su-30 look like an amazing jet as compared to the F-16 .
    But we should also remember that every assets in an airforce work together to become a force to be reckoned with..
    Currently the IAF is very much fragmented and has very few force multiplier assest..
    A simple look at feb 27 shows how out of touch the IAF air doctrine in reference to modren air warfare.
    Bvr, EW assets ,jamming all lacking..

    F-16/su-30 is but a simple cogwheel (although an important one ) in a machine
    Modren ariel combat has changed immensely in the past few decades and the su-30 won't save the IAF thats why the rhetoric "if we had rafale we would have destroyed the PAF " came after 27 feb..
     
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  9. maximuswarrior

    maximuswarrior BANNED

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    F-16s cannot leave the airbase without US permission. JF-17 can. The newer blocks of JF-17 are going to outperform the F-16 in many respects.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  10. StormBreaker

    StormBreaker FULL MEMBER

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    How ironic, using san in italic:-). Does italic/bold matter tho in san ? General question
    Regards
     
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  11. Syed Hammad Ahmed

    Syed Hammad Ahmed SENIOR MEMBER

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    So they left on 27 Feb due to US permision?
     
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  12. SABRE

    SABRE FULL MEMBER

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    Actually they can. F-16s are just not allowed to be flown out of Pakistan without US consent. Even in that the understanding is the jets should not be flown out for war games and multinational exercises. This is mainly to placate the fears, that is in many ways of our own created myth, that Pakistan could share technology with China. During conflict period there is nothing to stop Pakistan from using F-16s as it pleases. The Americans implicitly & explicitly made this matter clear after 27th Feb.
     
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  13. maximuswarrior

    maximuswarrior BANNED

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    They never left.
     
  14. StormBreaker

    StormBreaker FULL MEMBER

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    :enjoy::D
     
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  15. maximuswarrior

    maximuswarrior BANNED

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    The Americans counted the F-16s upon Indian request after the 27th. The Americans not only monitor the F-16s with their nasty presence in Pakistan, but we must also comply to their conditions of usage. This is not a myth, but the stark reality.