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Why is great philosopher Kautilya not part of Pakistan’s historical consciousness?

Joe Shearer

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It is a complex issue. I'm not entirely sure Chanakiya belongs to coterminous Pakistan, however, many notable pre-Islamic figures do. Other threads have mentioned such cases and are better verified than Chanakiya, so please refer to them. If it is proven that Chanakiya belongs to us, we will certainly claim him. We are for now well aware of how dangerous our enemy has become because of his teachings - perhaps that is part of why we reject such an individual at present. He himself is not "traitorous" towards the IVC per se, but certainly those hindutva who reference him today are very much hell bent on destroying the descendants of their great rivals, the IVC.

Sadly, Pakistan's history was stolen by the same people who appropriated the word "India". True - we didn't fight much over it at the time - perhaps we were more occupied with the traumatic pogroms being initiated by the secular republic. Certainly, history matters, but lives matter first.

When hindutva is finally unravelled and the ghosts of the Jammu and Kashmir pogroms are vanquished by virtue of truth, destructive vengeance and reconciliation in equal measure, then and only then we can reclaim our history and leave the gangetic city states to squabble over their miserable past.

It would be no surprise at all if more thinkers of yesteryear turned out to be Pakistani and not gangetic in origin. The IVC was the main target of the steppe land Aryans who swept in from the Caucasus. We were the target because we were on the map. To the east of the Indus were elephants and those who rode elephants. Alexander turned back. The Aryans campaigned against the IVC and simply enslaved the gangetics. Time after time, history has ignored everything east of the Indus Valley.

This my friends, is why the inferiority complex persists to our east.

The Pakistani author of this article has created a "click bait" opinion piece. He has not bothered to ask us - the sons of IVC - what we actually feel about our IVC heritage. He has simply regurgitated the secular republic's myth so that secular republicans from the gangetic plains will click on his article.

Had he spoken the truth, or had I written the article, it would get fewer clicks for speaking the truth in the face of gangetic mythology.
Very, very rarely have I come across such a muddled mind. Bless you and may you stay safe. The world is a truly dangerous place.

Having read the comments and posts up to this point, I am not sure if I should laugh or cry.

His teachings are simply too dangerous to mankind in hindutva hands. Once hindutva is eliminated, decisions can be taken on which parts of his philosophies will be rejected and which can be preserved. Certainly, there will be no need to deny his impact on history as a son of Indus soil.
You are getting better and better.

More like uniting everything under the Mauryas. That is hardly national integration. That is establishing hegemony.
You have to think at a deeper level than that.

All regions, all individuals were members of a single culture. There was nothing left to unite other than political sovereignty. Establishing hegemony meant precisely national integration, in those terms. Other than dissolving political cells and membranes that separated individuals, families and groups from other individuals, families and groups, nothing was left to be done.

Did he anywhere referred himself as King of Indians or King of Aryas?
@Joe Shearer
Chanakya? Not to anyone's knowledge. What he did refer to himself as is not known to history.

Kautilya, within the Arthasastra? No. Nowhere.

Chandragupta Maurya? He didn't have too much time for these refinements; he was dedicated to other, brutal goals, that might or might not have other beneficial effects.

Ashoka, his grandson? Read any one of his edicts. He speaks of himself as Devanampiya, the beloved of the gods.

There are plenty of documents that can support the argument about the latter two. Do you have anything to support the first? Especially considering that documents so far back are limited.

I am hesitant to support the thought that every empire had a unifying idea behind it. That would mean that the Congolese wholeheartedly supported the idea of a Belgian Empire, or the Algerians supported the idea of a United France or, more closer to us, that Indians supported the idea that the Sun never sets on the British Empire.
A good analogy, and one that can be used against you in a most appropriate manner.

Imagine now an empire of the Congolese headed by one who is himself Congolese, and imbued in the culture of the Congo. Or an Algerian realm, minus Metropolitan France, ruled by an Algerian. Or an India united under an Indian.

Does it look different now?

And what exactly is that essential Education which you can get from Chanakya which you can not get it from someone from the Islamic History ? If Lying and deceitfulness means Education for you than be my guest and go learn it , As Muslim we are not to lie or Deceit or being Dishonest even if we all are in danger, Truth and justice that is fundamental of our Faith that stretches to all the way back to Adam A.S from which all your so called Educators find their ancestry .
If lying and deceitfulness is the learning of the Arthasastra, you really need an education. Read it first, then come to conclusions about what it teaches. You are confusing the popular Indian image of Chanakya as a ruthless, infinitely wily conspirator with the teachings of the Arthasastra. Even that popular image is wrong, and is based on a degree of myth-building, compounded with ignorance, compounded with psychological insecurity.

I don't know which world you're from but we were taught about history of the geographical land of Pakistan, from the very start. Why would we though teach people about a philosopher whose ideas go against the idea of a Two Nation Theory?



Seriously. Tell me what the **** are we supposed to do with this information. Put up a fucking statue? Bigger issues at hand.
LOL.

And you don't even have a clue about what we are discussing. What did you learn about 'history of the geographical land of Pakistan', by the way? And how did you know what Kautilya was trying to say in the Arthasastra?
 

xeuss

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All regions, all individuals were members of a single culture. There was nothing left to unite other than political sovereignty. Establishing hegemony meant precisely national integration, in those terms. Other than dissolving political cells and membranes that separated individuals, families and groups from other individuals, families and groups, nothing was left to be done.
Are you suggesting that during the times of the Mauryas, everyone from Multan to Bengal to Marathwada shared one culture?

And even if they did, what evidence is there that all wanted to "unite" under one ruler? If that was the case, then the Mauryas would never have fought any wars.

A good analogy, and one that can be used against you in a most appropriate manner.

Imagine now an empire of the Congolese headed by one who is himself Congolese, and imbued in the culture of the Congo. Or an Algerian realm, minus Metropolitan France, ruled by an Algerian. Or an India united under an Indian.

Does it look different now?
I don't get your point. Empires did not end at the frontiers of their tribes or ethnic domains. They always expanded to the extent that they could, until they got pushed back, or lacked the desire. The Mauryas were no exception.
 

Ladyuk

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Another person jumps on the bandwagon. Who's denying the history? I just said, what the **** are we supposed to do with this useless information. Not like his site is unmarked.

Also, since you live in the culture fucked UK, do ask some Bangladeshi people; ask them to give you 2 reasons they are glad to be separate from India. They will give 2 answers; ethno-nationalism and religion.



Do I need to give justifications to an Indian? Just tell me this, what is Pakistan supposed to do with this stupid *** information?

What a pointless thread, just a bunch of Indians circlejerking about useless and irrelevant history. Backward people.
Learn some manners I could use foul language if I wanted to but I don't wish to stoop to your level. Jumping on the bandwagon? This is a open forum anyone can give their view and I gave mine. Yes the site is marked but is it taught in schools to children? Is our history acknowledged?

As far as Bangladeshis are concerned, and yes I have met plenty of them they are glad they seperated and acknowledged that religion ALONE is not enough to bind people from different backgrounds together.
 

Joe Shearer

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Are you suggesting that during the times of the Mauryas, everyone from Multan to Bengal to Marathwada shared one culture?
Yes, that is precisely what I am suggesting. Without, of course, denying that there were variations, that there were sub-cultures.

And even if they did, what evidence is there that all wanted to "unite" under one ruler? If that was the case, then the Mauryas would never have fought any wars.
Where did I suggest that these unifications were voluntary? What I did suggest, and do even now, is that the culture being alike, the religion being not singularly opposed between Sanatan Dharma, Buddhist and Jain (which the Sanatan Dharma priests considered apostate), the only differences were political, and therefore a hegemonic campaign dissolving those political differences was the equivalent of national integration.

I don't get your point. Empires did not end at the frontiers of their tribes or ethnic domains. They always expanded to the extent that they could, until they got pushed back, or lacked the desire. The Mauryas were no exception.
Remind me where the Mauryas exceeded their ethnic domains.
 

Jugger

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His teachings are simply too dangerous to mankind in hindutva hands. Once hindutva is eliminated, decisions can be taken on which parts of his philosophies will be rejected and which can be preserved. Certainly, there will be no need to deny his impact on history as a son of Indus soil.
It is very difficult to see what is inside the heart of a person, how will you distinguish a radical from a moderate????
 

Joe Shearer

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Another person jumps on the bandwagon. Who's denying the history? I just said, what the **** are we supposed to do with this useless information. Not like his site is unmarked.

Also, since you live in the culture fucked UK, do ask some Bangladeshi people; ask them to give you 2 reasons they are glad to be separate from India. They will give 2 answers; ethno-nationalism and religion.


Do I need to give justifications to an Indian? Just tell me this, what is Pakistan supposed to do with this stupid *** information?

What a pointless thread, just a bunch of Indians circlejerking about useless and irrelevant history. Backward people.
Your language could do with some cleaning up. Expressing disagreement does not have to take schoolboy smut as a reservoir of pejoratives. Once you can bring yourself to be less coarse and foul-mouthed, I can explain - patiently - to you what errors of perception you are suffering from and why what is being discussed is relevant to you.

Are you suggesting that during the times of the Mauryas, everyone from Multan to Bengal to Marathwada shared one culture?

And even if they did, what evidence is there that all wanted to "unite" under one ruler? If that was the case, then the Mauryas would never have fought any wars.



I don't get your point. Empires did not end at the frontiers of their tribes or ethnic domains. They always expanded to the extent that they could, until they got pushed back, or lacked the desire. The Mauryas were no exception.
An additional factor: you are surely aware of the 17 or so Janapadas into which northern India was divided around the time of the Buddha. You must therefore also be aware of how these coalesced, one merging into the other through conquest, or through serial conquests, until much larger political units - the realms before the Maurya - emerged.

Here, too, the cultures were very strongly like each other. We have a situation very much like the Greek city states before their consolidation by Philip II; was there a voluntary move by those city states to integrate? Yet if these outdated political divisions had not been rubbed out of existence, with or without the consent and cooperation of their citizens, Greece would not have emerged.
 

Lincoln

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Learn some manners I could use foul language if I wanted to but I don't wish to stoop to your level. Jumping on the bandwagon? This is a open forum anyone can give their view and I gave mine. Yes the site is marked but is it taught in schools to children? Is our history acknowledged?

As far as Bangladeshis are concerned, and yes I have met plenty of them they are glad they seperated and acknowledged that religion ALONE is not enough to bind people from different backgrounds together.
Yes, your opinion isn't so unique to not be considered 'jumping on a bandwagon.'
And none of the foul language was directed towards you personally.

Your language could do with some cleaning up. Expressing disagreement does not have to take schoolboy smut as a reservoir of pejoratives. Once you can bring yourself to be less coarse and foul-mouthed, I can explain - patiently - to you what errors of perception you are suffering from and why what is being discussed is relevant to you.
Called the spade a spade. This is what this thread is. A bunch of Indians circle jerking to some irrelevant history. This isn't their history, so why don't the Indians keep their shitty nose out of it, let Pakistani people decide their history. Oh, I know why, because life in India without the word Pakistan is incomplete.
 
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Ladyuk

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Yes, your opinion isn't so unique to not be considered 'jumping on a bandwagon.'
And none of the foul language was directed towards you personally.



Called the spade a spade. This is what this thread is. A bunch of Indians circle jerking to some irrelevant history. This isn't their history, so why don't the Indians keep their shitty nose out of it, let Pakistani people decide their history. Oh, I know why, because life in India without the word Pakistan is incomplete. Degenerate.
Whether my opinion is unique or not that is debatable but it really isn't the premise of this thread, as far as your foul language it most certainly was directed at me personally. You said that I come from the culture fucked uk I don't know how that's no personal.
 

Lincoln

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Whether my opinion is unique or not that is debatable but it really isn't the premise of this thread, as far as your foul language it most certainly was directed at me personally. You said that I come from the culture fucked uk I don't know how that's no personal.
You're offended by the fact that I called UK a culture fucked place, which it is.
 

Ladyuk

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You're offended by the fact that I called UK a culture fucked place, which it is.
Yes firstly it was totally irrelevant to the topic on hand being discussed, secondly the UK is far from " culturally fucked place " it's the land of Shakespeare, wordsworth, dickens etc it was a very ignorant and offensive thing to say.
 

-blitzkrieg-

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Source : https://www.dawn.com/news/1348014

When nearby residents tire of the daily grind, and when the temperatures soar in the summer, they seek respite at the glistening Khanpur Lake, located in the Haripur District of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

But on the way to Khanpur, just beyond the precipice of Taxila, one notices there a signboard that has rusted with age. Mohra Muradu Remains, it says, marking a thin road that snakes off into lush fields reminiscent of all those beautiful vistas you might see in a nature documentary on Pakistan

Walking along the road, one sees a small village perched upon a mountain, and a stream that rumbles with the authentic, tidal force of Mother Nature.

East of that stream are the remains of an old settlement, fairly preserved: a large stupa and other structures crafted out of black stone, the remnants of a 2nd century BC monastery called Mohra Muradu.


The Mohra Muradu monastery lightly kissed by sunlight. - Photo: Saif Tahir


Mohra Muradu was one of the 18 monasteries – Jolian, Dharmarajika, Sirkap, and Pipplan being the other important ones – that constituted Takshashila – the world’s first known university and a powerhouse of academic knowledge.

It is to be noted that although the word ‘university’ was not invented back then, Takshashila, which was formed in 7th century BC, functioned very much like a university.

The Buddhist sacred scriptures, the Jatakas, mention Takshashila as a centuries-old centre for learning. It was here that the Mahabharta was first said to be recited.

The rise of Gandhara, a kingdom in the northwestern region of present-day Pakistan, had a significant impact on Takshashila’s growth. The university offered 63 courses that included Vedas, astronomy, philosophy, surgery, politics, warfare, commerce, music, archery, and other performing arts.


A stupa of the Dharmarajika monastery. - Photo: Saif Tahir


According to other Buddhist texts, such as the Pali Canon, Brahmin princes and students migrated from far distances to enroll at Takshashila, and its alumni include a thorough list of notables: Jatopil, the commander in chief of Banaras; Jivaka, who cured Buddha; Parasasenajit, the ruler of Kosala; Panini, a great grammarian; and Charaka, a famous physician.

But perhaps the institution’s most noteworthy alumni is the legendary political philosopher and thinker, Chanakya, better known as Kautilya, the author of Arthashastra, often compared to the Italian mastermind Machiavelli and his book The Prince.

There is a popular South Asian adage: "jo gur se maray, usay zehar kyun do". The saying originates from an intriguing interaction between a prince, Maurya, and Chanakya, back in 330 BC.


The Dharmarajika monastery's remains. - Photo: Saif Tahir


Maurya was on a stroll one day when he noticed an odd sight: Chanakya, on his knees, pouring honey on to the roots of grass. Maurya approached him and inquired of his purpose, to which Chanakya replied that he was sweetening the roots.

Apparently, Chanakya had tripped over the grass while walking. He decided it was much better to uproot the grass permanently so that he never stumbles over it again, rather than removing it temporarily.

And so he was sweetening the roots, because the colonies of ants under the soil would sniff out the nectar, find it, and nibble through the roots, rendering the grass dead for good.

Impressed by Chanakya’s wisdom, Maurya henceforth hired him as chief advisor for state affairs. This laid the foundation for a long and enduring relationship between Chanakya and Chandra Gupta Maurya – one which helped establish a state so powerful and vast it stretched across the entire Indian subcontinent and lasted for nearly 150 years.

It became the largest (in terms of geographical expanse) and the most glorious empire Indian history has ever witnessed, even larger than the Mughal empire.


The remains of the Sirkap monastery. - Photo: Saif Tahir


Not many are privy to Chanakya’s indissoluble relationship with what's today Pakistan. Born in the suburbs of present-day Taxila, young Chanakya’s burgeoning intellect had him quickly noticed, and for his studies he was admitted to Takshashila, where he rose above the ranks and was hired as a teacher during his 20’s.

His magnum opus Arthashastra talks about various subjects of power and facets of governance. It enlists the duties of the ruler, the associates, and the advisor; discusses intricate matters, such as the art of diplomacy, the rules of unleashing and defending wars, the duties of the state during peacetime; domestic governance affairs like taxation, commerce, law, municipal affairs; social norms and customs; and artisan work, agriculture, medicine, and census.

On one hand, it provides an account of the Chandragupta army – the facts, numbers, weapons – and on the other, it says, “mere numbers do not count for much; without discipline and proper leadership they may become a burden.”


A board reading the history of the Mohra Muradu monastery. - Photo: Saif Tahir


Unlike Lahore – where the city sounds off frequently in recognition of the poet and philosopher Allama Iqbal – Taxila, a much older city, is devoid of any reference to its son, Chanakya. Some time ago, there was an attempt to create a university in his name; however, the political rifts and bureaucratic hurdles relegated it to an unending limbo.

Today, the only references to his existence are the shattered monasteries and the shambled remains of the once-great Takshashila.

Of these monasteries, Mohra Muradu is still a thriving village: an abode to 200 families, encircled by mountains and fields, home also to orchards and olive grafting. The settlement history of the village is unknown, but to locals it is as old as the monastery’s remains.


A view of the Pipplan monastery. - Photo: Saif Tahir


A young university graduate, Anis ur Rehman, runs the only private school in the village. He is proud of his village as being part of the world’s first learning centre, and of it he says: “Mohra Muradu is a historical village. It was always a centre of education and is still an educated village with many graduates and PhDs, some pursuing higher degrees outside the country.”

Sir Syed Ideal School, the school he runs, has a block named after his grandfather, Master Abdul Rehman, one of the first graduates of Aligarh University in Uttar Pradesh, India.

While showing his small school library, named after Chanakya, Anis continues: “I have read about Chanakya and it is a matter of pride for us that we gave the world a philosopher who is revered everywhere.”

Henry Kissinger in his book World Order described Chanakya’s Arthashastra as avant-garde that established hard power as a dominant reality in politics and validated realism much earlier than Machiavelli’s The Prince.

Whilst the world recognises Chanakya's stature as a philosopher, he’s nothing more than another example of how our nation has made someone a pariah without realising what they stood for.

Chanakya is damned for obvious reasons. He is presumed to be a representative of the Brahmin mindset and Hindu culture which we have parted from a long time ago. Merely this was enough to disqualify him from the stature of a learned philosopher of the soil.

Hence, not a single reference of him is found in the country, whereas we already have buildings and campuses named after scientists and philosophers from different eras and places.

Nothing can describe this irony better than The Indus Saga , in which Aitzaz Ahsan writes in the preface: “… a nation in denial of its national identity is unfortunate. But when it chooses to adopt an extra-territorial identity, it becomes a prisoner of propaganda and myths... This is the Pakistan of today, not the Pakistan of its founders. Identity is at the heart of its problem”.

If Pakistan is to come out of its tortuous identity crisis, it needs to accept its non-Muslim history as its own. Recognising someone as important as Chanakya will have to be part of the long process.

we dont believe in what your rig vedas tells you about ChanKya and Sarokutto Mauriya.
 

Joe Shearer

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Yes, your opinion isn't so unique to not be considered 'jumping on a bandwagon.'
And none of the foul language was directed towards you personally.


Called the spade a spade. This is what this thread is. A bunch of Indians circle jerking to some irrelevant history. This isn't their history, so why don't the Indians keep their shitty nose out of it, let Pakistani people decide their history. Oh, I know why, because life in India without the word Pakistan is incomplete.
I won't feed a troll; at the moment, you are simply a troll. Once you come to your senses, it will be time enough for tutorials.

we dont believe in what your rig vedas tells you about ChanKya and Sarokutto Mauriya.
The Rg Veda says nothing at all about Chanakya. There are about 1,200 years between them. I don't know what is Sarokutto Mauriya.

It would help if you had a basic understanding of what is going on.
 

Pakistani Fighter

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Yes firstly it was totally irrelevant to the topic on hand being discussed, secondly the UK is far from " culturally fucked place " it's the land of Shakespeare, wordsworth, dickens etc it was a very ignorant and offensive thing to say.
He is your Liberal Brother. LOL
 

masterchief_mirza

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It is very difficult to see what is inside the heart of a person, how will you distinguish a radical from a moderate????
I don't need to see inside the heart of anyone. I simply need to interpret his teachings in an appropriate context. This is how it should always be, surely?
 

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