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Why California Failed High-Speed Rail

WotTen

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I mean if we had China and India as heavy competitors in building airliners we could have much more efficient airplane designs and engines today.

comparing these two models could be wrong based on :
China's technological problems.
Different type of lands which you build rail over it.
Demand issues (population)

I don't know how the carbon footprint of HSR compares to civilian airliners. Cost to passengers would be.a factor but the convenience of HSR and other factors I listed make people prefer it over planes. On the flip side, planes have an advantage that popular routes run a flight very frequently. Most HSR can't match the frequency convenience of flight schedules.

So, it's complicated.

Also, HSR is usually heavily subsidized. The following is from 2013, so I don't know the latest data.


From a financial standpoint, only two HSR lines in the world are profitable: Paris-Lyon in France and Tokyo-Osaka in Japan. A third line, Hakata-Osaka in Japan, breaks even
 

Cancerous Tumor

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Figure 1_14.png
china passengers.jpg

~ 900 Million passengers for US(330 M) in 2022
~4 Billion passengers for China(1.4B) in 2022

I think we both agree(in general) that air travel is better because you have choice to use your airplane.(only limited by airports and airplane limitations)
 

beijingwalker

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Most of where the Chinese HSR is build is flat terrain; in two major areas in California the terrain requires tunnels.
Every single Chinese provinces has HRS, including Tibet, Xinjiang, Innner Mongolia....they go throught the world's biggest deserts, cut through the world highest mountain chains, you really need to brush up on your knowledge on world geography.

china-3d-render-topographic-map-color-frank-ramspott.jpg
 

beijingwalker

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I think we both agree(in general) that air travel is better because you have choice to use your airplane.(only limited by airports and airplane limitations)
China also has a massive aviation domestic market, but it doesn't stop Chinese preferring HSR over air travel, besides, all Americans who tried HSR in China just can't love them enough, this shows given a chance, anyone loves HSR, but the chance was not given in US.

China becomes the largest aviation market in the world

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FuturePAF

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The US, like all countries, has eminent domain laws. The government can confiscate property after reasonable negotiations and paying market rates.
Even if it tries to seize the land and pay market rate, there will be lawsuits. There are also environmental reviews that are required.

Every single Chinese provinces has HRS, including Tibet, Xinjiang, Innner Mongolia....they go throught the world's biggest deserts, cut through the world highest mountain chains, you really need to brush up on your knowledge on world geography.

View attachment 848880
And what is the cost (of just the construction not the land acquisition) in this terrain? How much are workers paid compared to workers in California?

Also China is building so many lines there are economies of scale, while California has to wait for funding so their work happens in fits and starts.
 
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jhungary

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For some reason, Americans don't like to travel in trains. Amtrak is pretty much a financial failure. Maybe it's part of the individualistic 'freedom' mindset. My car, my domain!

It's the opposite in many other countries. In Italy, the national airline Alitalia went bankrupt because people prefer high speed trains.
Not about cars. It's about township and population. If US are ever going to have enough ridership of a HSR is to set it thru population center, there aren't big city center that can profit and easy to build. And Between City Center, I have numberous air hub I can choose from to fly with.

When i was still living in PA, I used to make regular trip to Wichita to visit my folks. I can just drove to Philly and then get on a flight to Wichita and I will be there in less than 4 hours, if there is a HSR, it will take 5 or 6 to make that 1200 mile journey.

Many country are not suitable for HSR, Australia is another issue, I mean If I were to go from Sydney to Brisbane, you will bet your *** I am going to fly there in 2 hours 15 minutes than taking a train for that.
 

FuturePAF

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Not about cars. It's about township and population. If US are ever going to have enough ridership of a HSR is to set it thru population center, there aren't big city center that can profit and easy to build. And Between City Center, I have numberous air hub I can choose from to fly with.

When i was still living in PA, I used to make regular trip to Wichita to visit my folks. I can just drove to Philly and then get on a flight to Wichita and I will be there in less than 4 hours, if there is a HSR, it will take 5 or 6 to make that 1200 mile journey.

Many country are not suitable for HSR, Australia is another issue, I mean If I were to go from Sydney to Brisbane, you will bet your *** I am going to fly there in 2 hours 15 minutes than taking a train for that.
That’s why it’s better to upgrade the commuter lines; so that workers can take day trips to and from work from areas of affordable housing to work and home again.

In the LA area, the first line should have been between San Diego and LA
 

jhungary

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That’s why it’s better to upgrade the commuter lines; so that workers can take day trips to and from work from areas of affordable housing to work and home again.

In the LA area, the first line should have been between San Diego and LA
Yeah, for population center. Not much of a point for anywhere outside metropolis

Most rail in US are commuter rail, people take the rail because they need to go from A to B and that is the only way to get there, not too many people take rail for leisure, I mean I don't even remember when is the last time I took Amtrek. I mean if I can drive, I drive, if I can fly, I fly, if not that's railway time.
 

WotTen

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Many country are not suitable for HSR, Australia is another issue, I mean If I were to go from Sydney to Brisbane, you will bet your *** I am going to fly there in 2 hours 15 minutes than taking a train for that.

As I mention in another post, once you factor in 30 minutes from CBD to airport and 30 minutes before flight checkin or baggage pickup, it adds 2 hours to any flight.

HSR even at a modest 250km/hr can do Sydney to Canberra, CBD to CBD 300km, in 90 minutes, Sydney to Melbourne 900km in 4 hours. This includes acceleration and deceleration times. These times compare favorably to the total time CBD to CBD using a plane.

P.S. Plus, on a train, almost the entire time can be used productively working on a laptop.
 
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beijingwalker

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Even if it tries to seize the land and pay market rate, there will be lawsuits. There are also environmental reviews that are required.


And what is the cost (of just the construction not the land acquisition) in this terrain? How much are workers paid compared to workers in California?

Also China is building so many lines there are economies of scale, while California has to wait for funding so their work happens in fits and starts.
US also didn't build or upgrade their city subways, American city fellows also don't ride subways?

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jhungary

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As I mention in another post, once you factor in 30 minutes from CBD to airport and 30 minutes before flight checkin or baggage pickup, it adds 2 hours to any flight.

HSR even at a modest 250km/hr can do Sydney to Canberra, CBD to CBD 300km, in 90 minutes, Sydney to Melbourne 900km in 4 hours. This includes acceleration and deceleration times. These times compare favorably to the total time CBD to CBD using a plane.

P.S. Plus, on a train, almost the entire time can be used productively working on a laptop.
The same time you would need to factor in going from your place to CBD to get on that HSR, it may not go to your place. Take Countrylink for example, there are only 2 or 3 stop inside Sydney where ever you go (Stop at Strathfield and Campbelltown when you go south and Strathfield and Hornsby if you go north), and Check in is about the same (You still check in for HSR, as long as you have luggage) and with check in time, you are looking at 2 hours for the plane ride to Melbourne, half what HSR can do.
 

beijingwalker

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The same time you would need to factor in going from your place to CBD to get on that HSR, it may not go to your place.
Beijing has several railway stations within the second and third ring road, all connected with several subway lines, HSR neends good supporting connectivity.
 

jhungary

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Beijing has several railway stations within the second and third ring road, all connected with several subway lines, HSR neends good supporting connectivity.
Are you talking about Beijing or US (Or per my conversation with @WotTen )Australia?

And if you have to stop all along the way, that HSR is NOT high speed anymore, because you have to stop frequently.
 

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