• Tuesday, November 12, 2019

Why Arabs lost all its wars to Israel despite outnumbering Israel in weapons and manpower?

Discussion in 'Arab Defence Forum' started by M.SAAD, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    Not even to mention that most of your nuclear warheads are based on the Nasr short range missile, that barely has a yield of a few kilotons, try us out:
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    On the other hand, our Jericho 3 missiles are way deadlier, with MIRV capability and the range of 11,500 kilometers.
    By the way, isn't this land holy to you? Lets say a nuclear missile does land in Israel, and destroys everything (Never going to happen thanks to our defense systems) wouldn't it kill the "Palestinians" too? destroy Al Aqsa? kill other Arab people in the region?
    By the way, our Arrow 3 has the same range as your best ballistic missile.

    You will be surprised :)
     
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  2. Frogman

    Frogman SENIOR MEMBER

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    This is not a separate part of the conflict or war. It is an intrinsic part of it and a favourable effect for Egypt. There was also a military incentive for Israel to accept but I'll get to that later.

    Complete and utter bollocks. Firstly, the ceasefire was not the end state of this war and is never the end state of any war. It is an opportunity to resupply and reform units in anticipation for further conflict.

    As to the Israeli military situation on the West side of the Canal:

    - They had failed to take Ismalia and Suez. They had lost momentum and were fixed.
    - Their supply line (as in they only had one) was a vulnerable 10km stretch by the Deresiviour
    - They could not move towards Cairo because in between them and that was the 4th Armoured Division
    - Their extended supply lines (East of the Canal) were vulnerable and could be cut by the 16th Mechanised Division

    The Egyptian situation from the 14th of October to the 25th:

    - The 21st Mechanised Division were pulled to the West for rearming and resupply in Abu Sultan
    - The reformation of the 23rd and 6th Mechanised Divisions by way of Soviet resupply
    - Attaching the 4th Armoured Division to the 3rd Army
    - The creation of a new Mechanised Division using the Arab Reserve and attaching it to the 3rd Army
    - Position the Algerian Armoured Division on the Suez road towards Cairo

    So could the Israelis conceivably take Cairo? No. Forces several times their size were in the way. They were already stretched within the area they occupied and their supply lines were under threat from the East side of the canal and on the West Side by SF.

    The Egyptian Plan Shamel 2:

    - Destroy Israeli Forces on West Bank.
    - Close the 30km gap between 2nd and 3rd Army
    - Reopen supply lines to 3rd Army

    The plan:

    1 - 16th Mechanised Division supported by the 22nd Armoured Brigade pushes southward cutting the Israeli entry point and fixing them on the Western Bank. Even if this push was not successful it would still disrupt Israeli forces and cut supply lines to the Western Bank.

    2 - The 23rd Armoured Division would attempt to take the area occupied by Sharon's forces which had control over the passing into the West side and was the center of operations for the Israelis. The Division itself was 250 tanks strong and thus similar in size to Sharon's but it was to be supported by the 18th and 116th Mechanised Brigades and the 182nd Paratrooper Brigade. Special Forces would also pressure Sharon's forces from the direction of Ismallia.

    3 - The 3rd Mechanised Division would advance to cut off Magen's and Sharon's forces. Megan's forces were overstretched occupying an area far too large for them. Egyptian forces would move to take the area between Genef and the Smaller Bitter Lake.

    Thus cutting them off would be somewhat easy as Egyptian forces could move unopposed in areas. In case of counter attacks from the North or South the 3rd was also tasked with creating defensive lines.

    4 - The main effort. Destroying Israeli forces from Alshalofa to Suez by the 4th Armoured and 6th Mechanised Divisions. The attack on Adan's forces would be an attempt to remove the encirclement of the 3rd Egyptian Army. The 4th and 6th would be supported by the newly formed Arab Division if need be. This would have been the toughest fight of the lot given the strength and experience of Adan's forces but it was doable. Their complete destruction was not required however.

    5 - Attack by the Moroccan Brigade on the Israelis on the South/Gulf of Suez opening a supply line to the City and fixing any Israeli forces in case they seek to support the Adan's forces.

    Without going into minutia this is what awaited the Israelis had the ceasefire collapsed. This is why it held up, not some meek reasoning (wanting peace or whatever). If Israel was convinced it could destroy Egypt's 3rd Army and push Egyptian forces back to the East or even take Cairo (!) they would have.

    The End state of this war is in 1979 with the Peace agreements and the return of the Sinai through war and by force. We achieved our strategic aims. Israel did not. You want to think you won fine. We have what we want and you have your peace.



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  3. Taimur Khurram

    Taimur Khurram ELITE MEMBER

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    Your defence systems won't save you. If they could, you would let Iran get nukes.

    LOL most of our nukes are not NASR, very few of them actually are.

    We can use those few tactical nukes to cause chaos in Israel whilst avoiding harm to the Palestinians and the holy sites.
     
  4. Hossiiee

    Hossiiee FULL MEMBER

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    @Beny Karachun

    You are not seeing the big picture.. Israel was only facing threats from Al Qassam brigades, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran. This means that the muslim countries generally are divided and only very few muslims are indeed helping their Palestinian brothers. If Israel had to face muslim unity they would not only be dealing with the axis resistance, but also with: Afghanistan, Algeria, Azerbeidjan, Bahrein, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Malaysia, Mali, Morocco, Qatar, SA, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Oman, Pakistan, UAE, Yemen, Indonesia, Lebanon, and many more.
    You sounded like you are happy with ur 'multiplying'.. But as I told you, you have a long way to go. In the end there will be muslim unity again and when this happens you can have advanced technology and big military as much as you want, but it wont do any good. When truth comes, falsehood will perish: For falsehood is by its nature bound to perish. The zionist regime is based upon falsehood and will perish.. it is just a matter of time.. the time when muslims will finally wake up and stand up for their brothers in Palestine. I have nothing against Jews, Jews are living peacefully in Morocco for example.. But we will never allow the zionist regime, who is indiscriminately occupying our Palestinian brothers, to last forever.. The zionist regime is bound to perish.
     
  5. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    Your plan wasn't fulfilled you know, making plans is very different that completing them
    This Israeli plan in the end of the war succeeded but unfortunately was interrupted by the US and USSR
    [​IMG]
    Israeli breakthrough – Crossing the canal
    After the Egyptian failed attack of October 14, the Israelis immediately followed with a multidivisional counterattack through the gap between the Egyptian 2nd and 3rd Armies. Ariel Sharon's 143rd Division, now reinforced with the 247th paratroopers reserve Brigade commanded by Colonel Danny Matt, was tasked with establishing bridgeheads on the east and west banks of the canal. The 162nd and 252nd Armored Divisions, commanded by Generals Avraham Adan and Kalman Magen respectively, would then cross through the breach to the west bank of the canal and swing southward, encircling the 3rd Army. The offensive was code-named Operation Stouthearted Men or alternatively, Operation Valiant. On the night of October 15, 750 of Colonel Matt's paratroopers crossed the canal in rubber dinghies. They were soon joined by tanks ferried on motorized rafts and additional infantry. The force encountered no resistance initially and fanned out in raiding parties, attacking supply convoys, SAM sites, logistic centers and anything of military value, with priority given to the SAMs. Attacks on SAM sites punched a hole in the Egyptian anti-aircraft screen and enabled the Israeli Air Force to strike Egyptian ground targets more aggressively.

    On the night of October 15, 20 Israeli tanks and 7 APCs under the command of Colonel Haim Erez crossed the canal and penetrated 12 kilometres into mainland Egypt, taking the Egyptians by surprise. For the first 24 hours, Erez's force attacked SAM sites and military columns with impunity. On the morning of October 17, it was attacked by the 23rd Egyptian Armored Brigade, but managed to repulse the attack. By this time, the Syrians no longer posed a credible threat and the Israelis were able to shift their air power to the south in support of the offensive. The combination of a weakened Egyptian SAM umbrella and a greater concentration of Israeli fighter-bombers meant that the IAF was capable of greatly increasing sorties against Egyptian military targets, including convoys, armor and airfields. The Egyptian bridges across the canal were damaged in Israeli air and artillery attacks.

    Israeli jets began attacking Egyptian SAM sites and radars, prompting General Ismail to withdraw much of the Egyptians' air defense equipment. This in turn gave the IAF still greater freedom to operate in Egyptian airspace. Israeli jets also attacked and destroyed underground communication cables at Banha in the Nile Delta, forcing the Egyptians to transmit selective messages by radio, which could be intercepted. Aside from the cables at Banha, Israel refrained from attacking economic and strategic infrastructure following an Egyptian threat to retaliate against Israeli cities with Scud missiles. Israeli aircraft bombed Egyptian Scud batteries at Port Said several times. The Egyptian Air Force attempted to interdict IAF sorties and attack Israeli ground forces, but suffered heavy losses in dogfights and from Israeli air defenses, while inflicting light aircraft losses on the Israelis. The heaviest air battles took place over the northern Nile Delta, where the Israelis repeatedly attempted to destroy Egyptian airbases.

    Securing the bridgehead
    Despite the success the Israelis were having on the west bank, Generals Bar-Lev and Elazar ordered Sharon to concentrate on securing the bridgehead on the east bank. He was ordered to clear the roads leading to the canal as well as a position known as the Chinese Farm, just north of Deversoir, the Israeli crossing point. Sharon objected and requested permission to expand and breakout of the bridgehead on the west bank, arguing that such a maneuver would cause the collapse of Egyptian forces on the east bank. But the Israeli high command was insistent, believing that until the east bank was secure, forces on the west bank could be cut off. Sharon was overruled by his superiors and relented. On October 16, he dispatched Amnon Reshef's Brigade to attack the Chinese Farm. Other IDF forces attacked entrenched Egyptian forces overlooking the roads to the canal. After three days of bitter and close-quarters fighting, the Israelis succeeded in dislodging the numerically superior Egyptian forces. The Israelis lost about 300 dead, 1,000 wounded, and 56 tanks. The Egyptians suffered heavier casualties, including 118 tanks destroyed and 15 captured.

    Egyptian response to the Israeli crossing
    The Egyptians meanwhile failed to grasp the extent and magnitude of the Israeli crossing, nor did they appreciate its intent and purpose. This was partly due to attempts by Egyptian field commanders to obfuscate reports concerning the Israeli crossing and partly due to a false assumption that the canal crossing was merely a diversion for a major IDF offensive targeting the right flank of the Second Army. Consequently, on October 16, General Shazly ordered the 21st Armored Division to attack southward and the T-62-equipped 25th Independent Armored Brigade to attack northward in a pincer action to eliminate the perceived threat to the Second Army.

    The Egyptians failed to scout the area and were unaware that by now, Adan's 162nd Armored Division was in the vicinity. Moreover, the 21st and 25th failed to coordinate their attacks, allowing General Adan's Division to meet each force individually. Adan first concentrated his attack on the 21st Armored Division, destroying 50–60 Egyptian tanks and forcing the remainder to retreat. He then turned southward and ambushed the 25th Independent Armored Brigade, destroying 86 of its 96 tanks and all of its APCs while losing three tanks.

    Egyptian artillery shelled the Israeli bridge over the canal on the morning of October 17, scoring several hits. The Egyptian Air Force launched repeated raids, some with up to twenty aircraft, to take out the bridge and rafts, damaging the bridge. The Egyptians had to shut down their SAM sites during these raids, allowing Israeli fighters to intercept the Egyptians. The Egyptians lost 16 planes and 7 helicopters, while the Israelis lost 6 planes. The bridge was damaged, and the Israeli Paratroop Headquarters, which was near the bridge, was also hit, wounding the commander and his deputy. During the night, the bridge was repaired, but only a trickle of Israeli forces crossed. According to Chaim Herzog, the Egyptians continued attacking the bridgehead until the cease-fire, using artillery and mortars to fire tens of thousands of shells into the area of the crossing. Egyptian aircraft attempted to bomb the bridge every day, and helicopters launched suicide missions, making attempts to drop barrels of napalm on the bridge and bridgehead. The bridges were damaged multiple times, and had to be repaired at night. The attacks caused heavy casualties, and many tanks were sunk when their rafts were hit. Egyptian commandos and frogmen with armored support launched a ground attack against the bridgehead, which was repulsed with the loss of 10 tanks. Two subsequent Egyptian counterattacks were also beaten back.

    After the failure of the October 17 counterattacks, the Egyptian General Staff slowly began to realize the magnitude of the Israeli offensive. Early on October 18, the Soviets showed Sadat satellite imagery of Israeli forces operating on the west bank. Alarmed, Sadat dispatched Shazly to the front to assess the situation first hand. He no longer trusted his field commanders to provide accurate reports. Shazly confirmed that the Israelis had at least one division on the west bank and were widening their bridgehead. He advocated withdrawing most of Egypt's armor from the east bank to confront the growing Israeli threat on the west bank. Sadat rejected this recommendation outright and even threatened Shazly with a court martial. Ahmad Ismail Ali recommended that Sadat push for a cease-fire so as to prevent the Israelis from exploiting their successes.

    We have no intention of using them, you're talking as if you would welcome people trying to stab you, you will survive but each time someone tries to stab you, you will loose 1000$, you will spend this money but you will try to stop the stabber.

    Again, your tactical nukes cannot even go NEAR Israel, hell, our Arrow 3 would probably intercept it above Iran, or even Pakistan itself!
    And you don't understand that once you will launch a single missile at us, we will launch ours!
    Ours are way more devastating and you have absolutely no way to intercept them.
     
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  6. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi @Beny Karachun

    Muslims are not a very intelligent nation.

    Not all wars are won thru death and destruction---.

    At this time and also in the past---the only way Israel can be neutralized is thru peace---and total peace---.

    And Israel will never allow peace to happen---it knows that peace would destroy it---it thrives on war and will stay in the phase of war.

    The Christians have really fckd you guys up real bad---. They really have taken the revenge for the supposed sins---.

    They could have given you land in germany to form a nation---and you would have lived peacefully and happy---but no---.

    What really surprised me was how the clever old yid fell for the take.
     
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  7. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    Really? the Israelis were the first to propose peace, we didn't launch the first war, you did
     
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  8. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    I understand that---. But still peace would have been better---because you would never had gotten the support of the americans.
     
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  9. Frogman

    Frogman SENIOR MEMBER

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    The plan would have happened had the ceasefire not been in place or had it collapsed. Political conflict is war and this one did not end until 1979.

    As for your plan, the Israeli breakthrough had again lost momentum and been fixed into position. They could not advance in any direction given the strength of Egyptian Forces there. They had become vulnerable to Egyptian counter attack and being cut off from supply. Which would lead to them being completely encircled and eventually destroyed had there not been a ceasefire.

    The cease fire was successful due to US and USSR pressure, the Saudi oil embargo, and the prospect of Israeli forces being encircled on the Egyptian east bank. Again, war is political conflict and whether or not you want to admit it the effects on the battlefield are only a part of it if you can't fulfill your strategic aims through that alone and I'm yet to see a war won there and there alone. We have what we wanted, our main strategic goal. You have your peace. So please leave this fanboy nonsense about taking Cairo and whatever at the wayside.
     
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  10. Beny Karachun

    Beny Karachun SENIOR MEMBER

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    How do you know? you think everything goes according to the plan in war?
    We were in a superior position against your reserve army with older equipment, small amounts of aircraft, basically no air defense and no secret underground communication system, you had to transmit everything through the radio and we intercepted all of your plans. We didn't loose our momentum, we just gained it, we did advance, especially when we had the full support of our aircraft.

    Do you know what "encircled" is? how is this encircled?
    [​IMG]
    You didn't achieve anything in that war except penetrating a 250-men defensive line with a 90,000 men strong army, which was then encircled with its supply lines cut, two more days and everyone there would die of dehydration.
     
  11. Frogman

    Frogman SENIOR MEMBER

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    Because I know what I'm talking about and have actual experience.

    No. It goes according to the logistical capability you have and the manpower at your disposal at any given time.

    Like how you could not conduct major military operations towards Cairo with a single 10km supply line and overstretched forces in between Ismalllia and Suez alone. Ismalia and Suez being two cities you could not take which were being defended by light infantry and SF in addition to popular resistance. A far less daunting task than Cairo.

    While in between you and Cairo there's the 4th Armoured Division and Republican Guard Brigades. Not even going to count on the Arab reserves.

    Look it's pretty clear you're a fanboy. So I'm just going to leave it here, the 14th to the 18th of October are not the end state of the war 1979 is. If you can't accept my points I'm OK with that.
     
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  12. Taimur Khurram

    Taimur Khurram ELITE MEMBER

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    We are bigger and have more nukes. Your entire arsenal won't be enough to take us out, where as we only need to get in a few nukes to wipe you out. It's not that difficult, it's just costly.

    But soon it won't be.
     
  13. Mo12

    Mo12 SENIOR MEMBER

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    F-16 and your JF-17 jets wont even be able to reach Israel as you have no mid-air refuelling capabilities and your missiles wont reach them as well with 100% accuracy at least anyway
     
  14. Taimur Khurram

    Taimur Khurram ELITE MEMBER

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    LOL what a joke.

    Don't say anything if what you have to say is nonsense.

    Our nukes can reach Israel, Google it.
     
  15. HeinzG

    HeinzG SENIOR MEMBER

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    It took 3 Massive armies to put an end to the Aryan race. At least respect the their fighting ability.