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Why Arabs Lose Wars

Frogman

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I know that, I don't like that man.
No one does.

I'm speaking of Arabs
The quote is relevant to any insurgent force going up against a superior conventional force, whether be it in the Arab world or elsewhere.

Afghanistan is a large territory and the war for them was difficult, they have some advantages but aren't that organized and modern.
The Taliban are very organised, speak to any Afghan vet and they will tell you that. Whether they have modern weaponry or not isn't important, they will always be technologically inferior to the conventional force.

I know that, the point in the article is we do better as disciplined organizations rather than conventional approach
That wasn't the point of the article, although some insurgent movements have had some success (success here is completely different to a conventional army) it does not mean we are 'culturally' better at them, the majority of criticisms he makes were also evident in western forces before the second and first world wars, they have simply gained experience in how to effectively fight in the modern and contemporary era. To believe that organizations such as Hamas or Hezballah are more disciplined than conventional forces is naive, they do not have sophisticated chains of command therefore simply can not be more disciplined.
 

Falcon29

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No one does.
:D


The quote is relevant to any insurgent force going up against a superior conventional force, whether be it in the Arab world or elsewhere.
I don't know if I would consider arab military organizations insurgent forces, most are. However, others are more than just insurgents.

The Taliban are very organised, speak to any Afghan vet and they will tell you that. Whether they have modern weaponry or not isn't important, they will always be technologically inferior to the conventional force.
They have benefit of terrain and villagers, this is why they're very successful with hit and run operations. Although I tend to notice they have more low ranks having to take the lead and points.


That wasn't the point of the article, although some insurgent movements have had some success (success here is completely different to a conventional army) it does not mean we are 'culturally' better at them, the majority of criticisms of he makes were also evident in western forces before the second and first world wars, they have simply gained experience in how to effectively fight in the modern and contemporary era. To believe that organizations such as Hamas or Hezballah are more disciplined than conventional forces is naive, they do not have sophisticated chains of command therefore simply can not be more disciplined.
Show us that they gained experience, I don't believe that until I see concrete indicators.

Even if that wasn't the point of the article I want us to discuss these things. I'm not sure how Hezbollah would fair today. Let's discuss Gaza now, they can't have one specific chain of command since they're at risk. There are military commanders nobody knows about, they have to live secretive lives. They have several division in Hamas for example, the northern, southern and the Gaza city one. Military organizations such as Hamas have to make sure anybody can take the lead, this is why they worry less about quantity and more about quality. They don't have hundreds of men manning each neighborhood, they have small numbers of men who can achieve much. Gaza is also completely flat, it has a huge disadvantage against a conventional army which is why they know have resorted to underground complexes, everything is based off underground now. They are very coordinated these days, many people in the Arab world were surprised that even under very intense fire they manage to make coordinated strikes. I can show you proofs of such, the thing is when you're an open war atmosphere it makes everybody paranoid so they over achieve and work a lot harder to prepare.

We aren't comparing here, we should discuss Arab military capabilities all around. I really want your input on these few ideas:

1. For the people with way less experience and more money to spend they have better technology, for our more experienced we don't have access to all that technology. How do you think this could change?

2. We need to achieve self sufficiency at massive levels of production. Some Arab nations have license to produce some weapons but that's not enough. I believe Egypt could actually do really good in this field.

3. I really don't believe our military commanders are dedicated to improving our warfare strategies, as I've said. Most Arab nations take points from the Western strategy which I believe we should avoid slighty, not completely. Our soviet based/Western guidance tactics don't work. Egypt is gaining experience in fast response situations, they realize they need to be paranoid in the Sinai which is good for any military.

4. I believe all Arab militaries should have military organizations for support, we could use them to do some calculated strikes in time of need and they could study tactics of enemies and pass information to conventional army to study.

5. Even though I don't believe this would happen, let's picture a scenario of Israel going on a multi front war against Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza. Lets not bring personal views or politics here, how would this play out? Gaza and Lebanon cannot survive war for so long unless supply lines are open. Egypt would also need support, what would be our strategy? Would Saudi Arabia try supporting Egypt? The point is how? We are unprepared for future war scenarios especially considering water resources which all nations will compete for in the future. I don't believe Arab nations relations with the West will stay great for the whole next few decades.
 

Jaanbaz

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Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.

We lose WARS because of our CULTURE. We fight wars emotionally charged and that is not the way to fight battles in the modern times. In the old days, we fought Battle with our Enemy with sword and we needed lot of strength and emotions to rally into battle. Also, we used Strategy to defeat the Enemy.

Modern battles are fought with mostly devising Proper strategy. You cannot win modern battles with " Allaho Akbar " alone. If we Muslims want to win battles , we have to learn to use Strategy.

Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.

General Patton ( a famous US General from 2nd World War ) said it best:

" The object is not for us to die for our Country but make the other Guy die for his....."

@Hazzy997

The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.

WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..
You should add these three: propaganda, education and innovation. Muslim countries are seriously lagging behind in education and innovation. We can't even produce a local indigenous car never mind winning wars with sophisticated nations.
 

Falcon29

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Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.

We lose WARS because of our CULTURE. We fight wars emotionally charged and that is not the way to fight battles in the modern times. In the old days, we fought Battle with our Enemy with sword and we needed lot of strength and emotions to rally into battle. Also, we used Strategy to defeat the Enemy.

Modern battles are fought with mostly devising Proper strategy. You cannot win modern battles with " Allaho Akbar " alone. If we Muslims want to win battles , we have to learn to use Strategy.

Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.

General Patton ( a famous US General from 2nd World War ) said it best:

" The object is not for us to die for our Country but make the other Guy die for his....."

@Hazzy997

The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.

WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..
I agree with mosts you made here, although I kind of disagree with the culture part. It's different for each ethnicity, sometimes you can't avoid being killed going up against regional powers. Culture in some cases actually motivates people to take a stand. Conventionally speaking you may be right about the culture part in some cases. You make a good point even our Prophet told us to adopt strategies. God doesn't intervene in our affairs, he may inspire us though. I really agree with the last point, I don't see how Arab nations are planning for a future scenario of war.
 

Syrian Lion

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simply because there are some "Arabs" traitors, who fly to Israel to tell Golda Meir about Syria and Egypt attack on Israel, do you know who I am talking about?
 

Desert Fox

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Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.
I wouldn't say it is a wrong approach since someone who is materialistic and in love with luxury wouldn't want to fight for his country because his love of material wealth and fear of death would prevent him from doing so.

On the other hand true Patriots/Nationalists would not fear losing their own life in the process of fighting for their nation since casualties are unavoidable/inevitable. Of course, attaching a suicide vest to one's own body and blowing one's self up is what i would consider as not a sensible move since that is a deliberate attempt to kill ones self and a waste of human talent/resource that could have been better applied against an enemy on the battlefield.





@Hazzy997

The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.

WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..
I agree with this part.
 

DESERT FIGHTER

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Let me explain in very Brief terms why Arabs in Particular and Muslims in General lose WARS.

We lose WARS because of our CULTURE. We fight wars emotionally charged and that is not the way to fight battles in the modern times. In the old days, we fought Battle with our Enemy with sword and we needed lot of strength and emotions to rally into battle. Also, we used Strategy to defeat the Enemy.

Modern battles are fought with mostly devising Proper strategy. You cannot win modern battles with " Allaho Akbar " alone. If we Muslims want to win battles , we have to learn to use Strategy.

Part of our Problem is we want to give our life for our Country, which is totally wrong approach to fighting Wars.

General Patton ( a famous US General from 2nd World War ) said it best:

" The object is not for us to die for our Country but make the other Guy die for his....."

@Hazzy997

The second reason we lose wars is because we don't Plan to win wars during peace time.

WARS are won or lost in peace time. Plan and Prepare in Peace time long before the actual WAR begins..
By Sir MuradK :

Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.


Lets start with UAE My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF. I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is 8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great,

Now 4pm Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.

Now Syrians taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.:hitwall::hitwall:

Iraqis
and Iranians man they had issues teach them something 1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot:hitwall:. Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw:hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:


Informative threads:

How PAF pilots got the edge in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war | Page 2


Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ? | Page 15
 
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Syrian Lion

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Yes I do, Jordan.
tell me this, if the Arabs were united, wouldn't the Arabs be a superpower? but the west will never let that happen, they want the Arabs divided, how do they keep them divided? they have their own puppet governments...
 

Falcon29

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tell me this, if the Arabs were united, wouldn't the Arabs be a superpower? but the west will never let that happen, they want the Arabs divided, how do they keep them divided? they have their own puppet governments...
We know that, they've been doing this for decades now. They will not leave us alone, much of the conflicts in the region are because of them. We've become desperate and weak so it's caused more tensions between us. If we were united Israel would see it necessary to make peace. However, in our nation there are too much Jewish lobbying groups and republican Jewish coalitions which give candidates billions to do what they want for Israel. Our foreign policy is too much Jewish influenced, we have pentagon chiefs who are Jewish and they make their top priorities based around the Middle East. So they will focus much activity in Arab and Muslim countries and this creates a feeling of a real conflict between Muslims and Americans. People don't know who's heading it though, much of our efforts and resources are based on the Middle East because this is how the Jewish people want it. Keep the US pre occupied with the Middle East and therefore it's very difficult for Arabs to head on the right path. I think people here are trying to slowly break free from it.
 

Frogman

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Show us that they gained experience, I don't believe that until I see concrete indicators.
Err!! WWI WWII? Maintenance of empires?

Western nations were involved in conventional wars between each other throughout the 18th and 19th centuries and had the largest and bloodiest battles in the 20th century, in comparison the Arab world lived in relative peace even if under foreign occupation.

. Let's discuss Gaza now, they can't have one specific chain of command since they're at risk. There are military commanders nobody knows about, they have to live secretive lives
Having a sophisticated chain of command does not necessarily mean the enemy knows the ins and outs of said command, the opposite can also apply to organisations that have an 'informal' chain of command, if the enemy has effective intelligence assets they can use those to pin point the major players.

Military organizations such as Hamas have to make sure anybody can take the lead, this is why they worry less about quantity and more about quality
If there was a sophisticated chain of command the next in line to lead would fall to the person of preceding rank in case of a death.

For the people with way less experience and more money to spend they have better technology, for our more experienced we don't have access to all that technology. How do you think this could change?
Nations will never gain experience in fighting conventional wars unless they actually participate in them, however, what they can do is ensure a certain standard of training is present so that if there is a war they should perform adequately, they will also rely upon using their financial assets to ensure they have the best weapons systems around, what I am describing here is the majority of Gulf nations. Other nations have fought several conventional wars and are battle hardened, however, due to either their economic position or political position they can not get access to certain weaponry, however, because of their modest budgets or political positions they have to have a certain ingenuity in order to get their hands on weapons systems that are restricted from the traditional suppliers, for instance the Ukraine for Soviet weaponry Russia may not be willing to sell or to the Chinese for air defence systems or naval vessels etc. etc. these nations will also rely on legacy weaponry from when Pan-Arabism was still a thing, this is mainly a reliance deterrents such as chemical weapons and ballistic missiles. This could only change if the former nations improve their economic or political situations.

We need to achieve self sufficiency at massive levels of production. Some Arab nations have license to produce some weapons but that's not enough. I believe Egypt could actually do really good in this field.
Egypt already does, however, the knowledge required to become self sufficient to a level comparable to that of the United States or Russia/PRC would take decades if not generations. For one these nations will never share the technology required to produce vital technology such as jet engines (even China isn't fully sufficient in that field yet although it is about to break that barrier). Things however are moving in the right direction with nations rightly wanting more licences and ToT and TopT, until one or several nations united can spend a tremendous amount on R&D there will not be self sufficiency comparable to that of former super powers, current super powers, or future super powers.

3. I really don't believe our military commanders are dedicated to improving our warfare strategies, as I've said. Most Arab nations take points from the Western strategy which I believe we should avoid slighty, not completely. Our soviet based/Western guidance tactics don't work. Egypt is gaining experience in fast response situations, they realize they need to be paranoid in the Sinai which is good for any military.
I'm not really sure about this one. Each nation will adopt the strategies and doctrine required that best suit the threats they face. We may scrutinize and criticise those strategies and doctrines but as amateur military enthusiasts we may not be as clued up on the threats they face or think they will face or are preparing to face.

I believe all Arab militaries should have military organizations for support, we could use them to do some calculated strikes in time of need and they could study tactics of enemies and pass information to conventional army to study.
Those jobs are usually carried out by intelligence agencies.

5. Even though I don't believe this would happen, let's picture a scenario of Israel going on a multi front war against Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza. Lets not bring personal views or politics here, how would this play out? Gaza and Lebanon cannot survive war for so long unless supply lines are open. Egypt would also need support, what would be our strategy? Would Saudi Arabia try supporting Egypt? The point is how? We are unprepared for future war scenarios especially considering water resources which all nations will compete for in the future. I don't believe Arab nations relations with the West will stay great for the whole next few decades.
I don't really like scenarios since we can never accurately determine what might actually happen, however, what HA and EZQ can do is be a nuisance to the Israelis, forcing them to dedicate assets to fighting them which can alleviate the pressure on Egyptian forces although that won't be significant. What I can say with confidence is that SA and other Gulf nations will provide both financial and logistical support to the war effort, whether they will provide forces is unknown, however, they may be used as a proxy for weapons purchases (as they were for the Egyptian Mirage IVs).
 

Hyperion

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He is one of the best fighter pilots the subcontinent ever created. I may even go as far as saying the best. He whooped arses of many many many air-forces, yet, even the enemies respected him. That was his stature.

Present generation, few pilots come to mind. Just a handful out of hundreds.

By Sir MuradK :

Why Arabs pilots ________---------.
ok here are the facts I have trained UAE, Iranians, Iraqis, syrians.


Lets start with UAE My students were Sheikh Tamimi and Sheikh Hamdan who was the COAS of UAEAF. I spend a lot of time training them on Mirages and they started showing potential, So this is 8am Tamimi takes of after 20 min no contact where the hell is he now I am having a heart attack Sheikh Zahid nephew is MIA well a badu dropped him in front of the gate, Now I ask him what happend he says I was a 40000ft and the engine stopped I said did try to restart it he said no I just let the Mirage fall and at 7000ft I ejected great,

Now 4pm Sheikh Hamdan is in Air bang 1 mayday call and now he is MIA and I say to my self why me GOD because I am responsible for them choppers goes picks him up Sqn Ldr Sahi PAF pilot rescued him, Now I ask him what happed he says I went into a spin and them I ejected because there were to many Red lights now my face is going red and I am about to beat the crap out of him and he say relax Sir muhammad we will get more planes and my reply was HOW he says I will just call my uncle and yes first thing in the morning we were orders to go and pick up 6 more mirages from France.

Now Syrians taught them everything we knew in Air to Air combat when the real war started most of them returned back and 1 of them was so scared that he went full power and going straight for Israel his bearing was so wrong that he forgot to turn back, But it was strange when we took of we got kills. They landed faces all blue I ask why did you turn back he replies I am to young to die plus I saw our army on the ground so I am sure they will take care of it.:hitwall::hitwall:
Iraqis and Iranians man they had issues teach them something 1 hour later the guy does the opposite and is totally blank , Whats wrong I taught you this move oh sorry I forgot:hitwall:. Live fire Demo going on Iraqi pilots has 20 targets in front of him the bugger goes and hits the tower full of personal observing the exercise and why did you do that he says that was the biggest target I saw:hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:


Informative threads:

How PAF pilots got the edge in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war | Page 2


Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ? | Page 15
 

DESERT FIGHTER

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He is one of the best fighter pilots the subcontinent ever created. I may even go as far as saying the best. He whooped arses of many many many air-forces, yet, even the enemies respected him. That was his stature.

Present generation, few pilots come to mind. Just a handful out of hundreds.
Indeed..
 
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Falcon29

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Err!! WWI WWII? Maintenance of empires?

Western nations were involved in conventional wars between each other throughout the 18th and 19th centuries and had the largest and bloodiest battles in the 20th century, in comparison the Arab world lived in relative peace even if under foreign occupation.
I'm speaking of Arab nations war experience against conventional army's in the past several decades. All I could think of is Iraq.

If there was a sophisticated chain of command the next in line to lead would fall to the person of preceding rank in case of a death.
There is a man above Jabari, I'm not sure how to explain this. EQB is designed so if there isn't even a command the ordinary military members can take the lead, they're trained for such scenarios.

Nations will never gain experience in fighting conventional wars unless they actually participate in them, however, what they can do is ensure a certain standard of training is present so that if there is a war they should perform adequately, they will also rely upon using their financial assets to ensure they have the best weapons systems around, what I am describing here is the majority of Gulf nations. Other nations have fought several conventional wars and are battle hardened, however, due to either their economic position or political position they can not get access to certain weaponry, however, because of their modest budgets or political positions they have to have a certain ingenuity in order to get their hands on weapons systems that are restricted from the traditional suppliers, for instance the Ukraine for Soviet weaponry Russia may not be willing to sell or to the Chinese for air defence systems or naval vessels etc. etc. these nations will also rely on legacy weaponry from when Pan-Arabism was still a thing, this is mainly a reliance deterrents such as chemical weapons and ballistic missiles. This could only change if the former nations improve their economic or political situations.
Great points, I don't completely trust the West if a war scenario broke out. I believe we should have a variety in our arsenal since China and Russia are less likely to screw us over. What do you mean by ballistic missiles? For Arab states?

Egypt already does, however, the knowledge required to become self sufficient to a level comparable to that of the United States or Russia/PRC would take decades if not generations. For one these nations will never share the technology required to produce vital technology such as jet engines (even China isn't fully sufficient in that field yet although it is about to break that barrier). Things however are moving in the right direction with nations rightly wanting more licences and ToT and TopT, until one or several nations united can spend a tremendous amount on R&D there will not be self sufficiency comparable to that of former super powers, current super powers, or future super powers.
I agree with you here, could you list some aspects of their military sufficiency? I know they produce rifles, tanks, I don't know other than that. Lots of the Kalashnikov rifles in Gaza are Egyptian actually.

I'm not really sure about this one. Each nation will adopt the strategies and doctrine required that best suit the threats they face. We may scrutinize and criticise those strategies and doctrines but as amateur military enthusiasts we may not be as clued up on the threats they face or think they will face or are preparing to face.
I know what you mean, for Egypt I think it has one of the better strategies in the arab world. I just think it used to be very soviet based, today I believe it should be a mix including their own military innovative strategy. Saudi Arabia and the gulf don't really how their own doctrine.

Those jobs are usually carried out by intelligence agencies.
Very few in the Arab world, I was actually saying if they had them within their own borders to open fronts if necessary.

I don't really like scenarios since we can never accurately determine what might actually happen, however, what HA and EZQ can do is be a nuisance to the Israelis, forcing them to dedicate assets to fighting them which can alleviate the pressure on Egyptian forces although that won't be significant. What I can say with confidence is that SA and other Gulf nations will provide both financial and logistical support to the war effort, whether they will provide forces is unknown, however, they may be used as a proxy for weapons purchases (as they were for the Egyptian Mirage IVs).
That's the point I was trying to make above, I really always wished EQB and Egypt had secret cooperation. They're neighbors, EQB could study Israeli war tactics and relay info and also watch for spies in the Sinai. I don't think we could predict scenarios because I really can't tell how it would play out. I can from a military organization POV, but, with a conventional army it's hard to tell. @Frogman
 

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