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Why a Whole Community in Pakistan Is Going Missing

TMA

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@Jackdaws

A citizen of a pathetic Hindu taliban state that installs modern day persecutional laws like AFSPA and PSA lecturing us . :omghaha::omghaha::omghaha:

Does any Indian Muslim body, AIMPLB or All India Shia board recognize Ahmedis as Muslims or give them membership. Go check there first.
Not to mention has an extremist party and a mass murderer in Office.
 

Jackdaws

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@Jackdaws

A citizen of a pathetic Hindu taliban state that installs modern day persecutional laws like AFSPA and PSA lecturing us . :omghaha::omghaha::omghaha:

Does any Indian Muslim body, AIMPLB or All India Shia board recognize Ahmedis as Muslims or give them membership. Go check there first.
I am not lecturing anyone. You have any written documentation which shows that any of these Muslim bodies don't recognize Ahmedis as Muslims?

You do know that Mirza Ghulaam Ahmed did declare those Muslims who did not accept his claims as disbelievers?
I did read that. My point is not what he said or what people believe - my point is that the state should be even handed. There will also be belief systems which will clash.
 

Taimoor Khan

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Of course their narrative can't be imposed. Of course it is your right and the right of the majority to see them as heretics. If the shoe was on the other foot, and they were in a majority and you still had your value system albeit in a minority - would you like to be declared non-Muslim by the state?

The problem is not what people believe - the problem is when the state imposes these conditions. Muslims in India suffer as well - from prejudice, from discrimination. My point is that the State must rise above it. Anyways - this is getting cyclical now. Best of luck - I don't mean to disrespect your faith.
We are not talking about IFs and BUTs. We are talking about ground realities, FACTs.

If I am in minority, I will put my head down and get on with my life. There will be no point in banging my head against the wall. Specially when I am sound in my life and state is facilitating in my daily life and no interrupting in my belief system and my rituals. My faith is a personal matter between me and my lord, it doesn't need any recognition from anyone. That's about it.

What you need to understand, that even if we , for the sake of argument, recognise them as Muslims, the Muslim world, DO NOT recognise them as such. In a situation for example, where a Qadyani is traveling to Saudi Arabia with Pakistan passport bearing his identity as Muslim and if the Saudi authorties find out, its the Pakistani state which will get the flak.

And for the state, any state worth it salt represent the collective will of its people. Muslims of India are suffering because state itself has become hostage to the collective will of the majority. State is the reflection of its people.
 

Jackdaws

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We are not talking about IFs and BUTs. We are talking about ground realities, FACTs.

If I am in minority, I will put my head down and get on with my life. There will be no point in banging my head against the wall. Specially when I am sound in my life and state is facilitating in my daily life and no interrupting in my belief system and my rituals. My faith is a personal matter between me and my lord, it doesn't need any recognition from anyone. That's about it.

What you need to understand, that even if we , for the sake of argument, recognise them as Muslims, the Muslim world, DO NOT recognise them as such. In a situation for example, where a Qadyani is traveling to Saudi Arabia with Pakistan passport bearing his identity as Muslim and if the Saudi authorties find out, its the Pakistani state which will get the flak.

And for the state, any state worth it salt represent the collective will of its people. Muslims of India are suffering because state itself has become hostage to the collective will of the majority. State is the reflection of its people.
"If I am in minority, I will put my head down and get on with my life."

Nope. No minority should have to do that. Of all people, it should be Pakistanis who should understand that - didn't Pakistan fight for a nation because they were in a minority in British India?
 

Taimoor Khan

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"If I am in minority, I will put my head down and get on with my life."

Nope. No minority should have to do that. Of all people, it should be Pakistanis who should understand that - didn't Pakistan fight for a nation because they were in a minority in British India?
Stop bullshiting and quote me FULL next time. This is what I wrote.

"If I am in minority, I will put my head down and get on with my life. There will be no point in banging my head against the wall. Specially when I am sound in my life and state is facilitating in my daily life and no interrupting in my belief system and my rituals. My faith is a personal matter between me and my lord, it doesn't need any recognition from anyone. That's about it."



Now you are going to lecture me about history? Do you even know your history? Do you even know that Muslims and their leader MA Jinnah was once champion of Muslim-Hindu unity! Pakistan was the last resort after exhausting all the avenues of peaceful coexistence. You Indians have this pathetic habit of twisting facts only to get humiliated in turn.
 

Jackdaws

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Stop bullshiting and quote me FULL next time. This is what I wrote.

"If I am in minority, I will put my head down and get on with my life. There will be no point in banging my head against the wall. Specially when I am sound in my life and state is facilitating in my daily life and no interrupting in my belief system and my rituals. My faith is a personal matter between me and my lord, it doesn't need any recognition from anyone. That's about it."



Now you are going to lecture me about history? Do you even know your history? Do you even know that Muslims and their leader MA Jinnah was once champion of Muslim-Hindu unity! Pakistan was the last resort after exhausting all the avenues of peaceful coexistence. You Indians have this pathetic habit of twisting facts only to get humiliated in turn.
You can choose to be an ostrich if you like. Your State forbids them from displaying what they like, calling their places what they like and in your altered reality this is "facilitating". Bravo. If faith is a personal matter, why must the State declare someone a heretic? Do you even realize that you just keep contradicting yourself?

If you read history, you would know that Jinnah agreed to keep the country united under the Cabinet Mission Plan, so his demand was clearly flexible.

As far as your personal barbs are concerned, it merely highlights your own insecurity.
 

TMA

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I am not lecturing anyone. You have any written documentation which shows that any of these Muslim bodies don't recognize Ahmedis as Muslims?


I did read that. My point is not what he said or what people believe - my point is that the state should be even handed. There will also be belief systems which will clash.
Since who are you to tell the Pakistani State what to do? What are your credentials? I hope they are impressive...
 

Jackdaws

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Since who are you to tell the Pakistani State what to do? What are your credentials? I hope they are impressive...
Free speech. You too can tell the Indian State or the American State your thoughts. You don't need credentials for that.
 

TMA

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You can choose to be an ostrich if you like. Your State forbids them from displaying what they like, calling their places what they like and in your altered reality this is "facilitating". Bravo. If faith is a personal matter, why must the State declare someone a heretic? Do you even realize that you just keep contradicting yourself?

If you read history, you would know that Jinnah agreed to keep the country united under the Cabinet Mission Plan, so his demand was clearly flexible.

As far as your personal barbs are concerned, it merely highlights your own insecurity.
The Pakistani State did not make a theological decision with the Second Amendment. Although there were theological debates on this issue. Have you bothered to read the Report into this issue? Me thinks no, otherwise you would not write this.

Have you bothered to read where the Attorney General cross examines Mirza Nasir Ahmed?

As to the prohibition on calling their places of worship Masjid etc etc, these are not part of the Second Amendment, but rather later Presidential Ordinances, that can be challenged in the Courts by the Ahmadi leadership. There were reasons for progressively harsh Ordinances...

The State has a right to protect her citizens, in this case, from deception and misguidance.
Just like the Austrian State is closing down mosques that are a threat to her citizens.

Free speech. You too can tell the Indian State or the American State your thoughts. You don't need credentials for that.
It was a rhetorical question...and your opinion is quite pathetic and ill informed...
 

Jackdaws

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The Pakistani State did not make a theological decision with the Second Amendment. Although there were theological debates on this issue. Have you bothered to read the Report into this issue? Me thinks no, otherwise you would not write this.

Have you bothered to read where the Attorney General cross examines Mirza Nasir Ahmed?

As to the prohibition on calling their places of worship Masjid etc etc, these are not part of the Second Amendment, but rather later Presidential Ordinances, that can be challenged in the Courts but the Ahmadi leadership. There were reasons for progressively harsh Ordinances...

The State has a right to protect her citizens, in this case, from deception and misguidance.
Just like the Austrian State is closing down mosques that are a threat to her citizens.
I disagree with the Austrian State closing down mosques and I disagree with such policies. Such policies alienate citizens. That's my view. You are entitled to yours.

The Pakistani State did not make a theological decision with the Second Amendment. Although there were theological debates on this issue. Have you bothered to read the Report into this issue? Me thinks no, otherwise you would not write this.

Have you bothered to read where the Attorney General cross examines Mirza Nasir Ahmed?

As to the prohibition on calling their places of worship Masjid etc etc, these are not part of the Second Amendment, but rather later Presidential Ordinances, that can be challenged in the Courts by the Ahmadi leadership. There were reasons for progressively harsh Ordinances...

The State has a right to protect her citizens, in this case, from deception and misguidance.
Just like the Austrian State is closing down mosques that are a threat to her citizens.


It was a rhetorical question...and your opinion is quite pathetic and ill informed...
Fine it is pathetic and ill informed. Yours is stupendous and well thought out.
 

TMA

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I disagree with the Austrian State closing down mosques and I disagree with such policies. Such policies alienate citizens. That's my view. You are entitled to yours.


Fine it is pathetic and ill informed. Yours is stupendous and well thought out.
But the real reason is WHY? Why do you disagree with the Austrian move? Where do you get those values from, that decide on why you agree/disagree?

But the real reason is WHY? Why do you disagree with the Austrian move? Where do you get those values from, that decide on why you agree/disagree?
Alienate citizens...but embraces the majority of citizens...who would you go with? ? and WHY?
 

Taimoor Khan

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You can choose to be an ostrich if you like. Your State forbids them from displaying what they like, calling their places what they like and in your altered reality this is "facilitating". Bravo. If faith is a personal matter, why must the State declare someone a heretic? Do you even realize that you just keep contradicting yourself?

If you read history, you would know that Jinnah agreed to keep the country united under the Cabinet Mission Plan, so his demand was clearly flexible.

As far as your personal barbs are concerned, it merely highlights your own insecurity.
You are a certified thick head.

My constitution lay down clearly the terms, which start with the fact that "sovereignty belong to Allah and Pakistan belong to him". Pakistan is not "phoopo ge ka ghar" where every tom dick and harry can break red lines specially concerning about faith, its laws and predetermined prerequisites about who can be classed as Muslims or not. Pakistan as a state DID NOT decide these laws , they were enforced 1400 years ago. How many times I have to repeat myself to get through you thick skull, the acceptance of Prophet (PBUH) as last messenger is absolute must for one to be classed as Muslim. If one doesn't agree with it, that's fine, but that will take away the label of Muslims from such individual right away, be default. its not even a debate. What we have to done is to reinforce this with special amendment in our constitution. Qadyanis DO NOT accept Prophet (PBUH) as last messenger, hence out of the folds of Islam. Is this such a rocket science to understand?

Faith is a personal matter indeed, in a very personal and intimate domain where someone try to connect to his lord on a one to one basis, no third party involved. BUT identify theft isn't, its a crime. They can introduce and label themselves as Qadyani or Mirzai, which they are quite frankly known as, not Muslims, as they don't meet the criteria to be called Muslims.


Indeed, Jinnah was champion of unity. He was not a Mullah or right winger. For him to change his mind and strive for a separate homeland, that is something that needs to be ponder over by all those who call themselves Indians now.
 

TMA

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You are a certified thick head.

My constitution lay down clearly the terms, which start with the fact that "sovereignty belong to Allah and Pakistan belong to him". Pakistan is not "phoopo ge ka ghar" where every tom dick and harry can break red lines specially concerning about faith, its laws and predetermined prerequisites about who can be classed as Muslims or not. Pakistan as a state DID NOT decide these laws , they were enforced 1400 years ago. How many times I have to repeat myself to get through you thick skull, the acceptance of Prophet (PBUH) as last messenger is absolute must for one to be classed as Muslim. If one doesn't agree with it, that's fine, but that will take away the label of Muslims from such individual right away, be default. its not even a debate. What we have to done is to reinforce this with special amendment in our constitution. Qadyanis DO NOT accept Prophet (PBUH) as last messenger, hence out of the folds of Islam. Is this such a rocket science to understand?

Faith is a personal matter indeed, in a very personal and intimate domain where someone try to connect to his lord on a one to one basis, no third party involved. BUT identify theft isn't, its a crime. They can introduce and label themselves as Qadyani or Mirzai, which they are quite frankly known as, not Muslims, as they don't meet the criteria to be called Muslims.


Indeed, Jinnah was champion of unity. He was not a Mullah or right winger. For him to change his mind and strive for a separate homeland, that is something that needs to be ponder over by all those who call themselves Indians now.
Some Bharatis are waking up and smelling the coffee. They are realizing that a liberal (not in the sense of todays liberal extremists who support antistate movements like PTM-TTP), like Quaid E Azaam, who was for unity between the Muslim and the follower of Sanatum Dharm, only changed his mind, after realising that there is core group among the Sanatum Dharm that will oppress the Muslim as he cannot swallow the fact his ancestors rejecting their religion and adopted Islam.

Can you imagine if the founder of Pakistan was the Muslim equivalent of Modi? Even despite all the trouble Pakistan has not elected a mass murdering extremist to office. Can you imagine if the head of the TTP was elected to office in Pakistan? That is what has happened in Bharat.
 

gutto786

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It's almost unanimously considered that Qadianis are not Muslim.
Congrats!
Imām al-Barbahārī (V died 329 AH) stated: “Know that Allah’s Messenger (H) said: “My ummah will divide into 73 sects, all of them will be in the Fire except for one, and that is the Jamā’ah.” It was said, “And who are they, O Allah’s Messenger?” He responded, “That which I and my Companions are upon today.” [1]

BTW I feel pity for all self proclaimed all knowing philosphers here. Keep it up!

Search up some of the speeches Ahmadiyya khalifah has done in parliaments across globe, european parliament or white house and you would know whos serving way of God
 

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