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Who will be Pakistan’s next Army Chief and Joint Chief of the military

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Acetic Acid

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Since 1990 nawaz have appointed all COAS expect Kiyani

So let there be another one
Afterall institution of Army have a special love for sharif family
They're more of protectors of Sharif Family than Pakistani people
 

Black.Mamba

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Everyone is corrupt "except" the chosen one who is the blue-eyed boy for a certain segment in Pakistan and nothing else will convince them otherwise. Why? Because a certain politician has lodged all his hopes for his second-coming with the said officer.

From top to bottom, this is a shit-show of the highest order with every Tom, Dick and Harry passing on judgements on every single officer in the running as if they are "saggay" with the officers in question.
Yes everyone is corrupt except the holy COAS's of the most patriotic and honest armed force of this universe and beyond.

I will not even go Generals, Lt Generals, or Brigadiers. Kindly enlighten us all on where are the last 4 COAS based these days? Which immigration laws provisions they acquire Blue and Red passports right after retirement? and How come they have assets in tens of millions of dollars? Even if they save every single salary, perk, or privilege earned in the span of their entire career still they cannot reach these numbers.




If trash like "A lot of rumors flying around that xyz is corrupt" is the level of analysis, then it may be better to just stay quiet but in the shit-show of Pakistan today, that does not pass muster.
What is your evidence or argument that "rumors" are trash? Just because you are blinded by institutional love or perhaps the beneficiary of the corrupt practices does not imply that everything is a shit-show.

Do you have any details of the gifts that were received at the wedding ceremonies of the children of the present COAS? A close relative of mine gave away LEXUS LS 570, technically a very small businessman as compared to other tycoons that were invited. Do you have any idea the list of BMWs, Porsche, Mercedes, Diamond sets from Tiffany, Cartier, Rolex's, and of course the mighty cash as well?

Now I already know that you will defend and label it as part of our culture to present gifts, but men of integrity do not use the influence of their office, they either avoid hosting such events or the men with morals like this ex-Indian CM "No gifts or Bouquets please, blessings only" - And please go ahead and label it as Indian propaganda and 5th Gen warfare.


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Perhaps, people should just let the process play out. The security establishment will get its man in the job and one thing is clear, he won't be Sharif's or Zardari's or Khan's man. He would just be the establishment's man. In this day, I think this will be the best option for Pakistan.
I have no doubts about it, they always bring in their man, the one who will not question his predecessors and keep protecting the traditions, of course, they are far more superior to the word of God, rule of law, and destiny of the nation. This has always been the case be it Musharaf, Kayani, Raheel, Bajwa, or the new one.

Lastly, all the army fanboys who are always jumping up and down, justifying every bull*hit end up by putting it on the people that Generals are corrupt too because they come from the people so its the fault of the people, but conveniently ignores that the bloody civilians do not have Tanks, Guns, Bullets, and uniform to hide behind, nor an unchecked authority and influence that the generals enjoy.

We as a nation have come to a point; "a body of men, holding themselves accountable to nobody, ought not to be trusted by anybody."
 
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blain2

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Circular nonsense. I can cut and paste 10 more links similar to above about IK, Bushra Bibi and cohort about accusations of their financial corruption here so lets not do this silly cut and paste job. Also the point about how "supposedly" your relative gave the sitting CoAS' children a Lexus remains unsubstantiated. Shame on that fool if he did give the car as a gift yet we still have no way to validate what you state to be the truth so don't bother going down that path. I am not even suggesting that the children of the CoAS have not accepted gifts, but why is it that has NOW become the bete noire for PTI supporters? What was going on for the past 3+ years when IK and Gen Bajwa were in the circle of trust? Suddenly he is the worst general, the most despicable, dishonest, unpatriotic one whose name shall not be taken etc. etc. Obviously there is a huge political angle behind this character assassination now.

Then we move on to the typical PTI tactics of personal attacks with ghattiya statements like "you are blinded by institutional love or perhaps the beneficiary of the corrupt practices does not imply that everything is a shit-show."

I have no financial interests with any politician or general in Pakistan and the only monetary interest that we had with the military ceased after my father stopped taking his military pension 20+ years ago.

I care for Pakistan and besides that I don't give a damn about PTI or PDM or any politician for that matter. I don't trust any of them, at least none from the current crop.

Perhaps if you cared to pay attention to my last post, it was about the claims about the senior generals in the running for the CoAS slot and comments on being corrupt and the usual favoritism nonsense were shared openly as if people know these folks personally. On top of that, If it is Lt Gen Faiz Hameed, then he is all good, anointed by God himself, because IK and PTI like him, yet the rest around him are all corrupt because the boss has not annointed them, rather, he called them "unpatriotic" because they did not get his seal of approval. This is why this whole conversation is a shit-show.

Lastly, I don't even want to put shade on Lt Gen Faiz Hameed by my comment above. I think he is a good officer like his cohort in the general staff. However, he is being politicized by the PTI to his own detriment with the nonsense that PTI supporters keep on spewing in his favor and the unsubstantiated vitriol against his peers due to no fault of theirs.
 
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AgNoStiC MuSliM

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He will be sincere to Pakistan (every single CNC/CoAS has been till date)
Ayub Khan
Yahya Khan
Zia-Ul-Haq
Musharraf
Bajwa

And has the Army as an institution ever unconditionally apologized for ripping the constitution to shreds MULTIPLE TIMES, and committing to teach its officer corps its sordid history of violating the constitution to rig elections, overthrowing elected governments, running propaganda campaigns against politicians and its leadership becoming military dictators, so as to prevent the same from happening again?

The Germans made holocaust denial a crime and teach their children about the crimes committed by the Nazis - the least the Army leadership can do is follow the example of the Germans in apologizing and teaching soldiers what it did so as to not allow a repeat.

Till the institution of the Army does this, your claims about ‘the Army leadership being sincere to the country’ are just hollow Army talking points to perpetuate the Army leaderships hold on power.
 

Black.Mamba

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Circular nonsense. I can cut and paste 10 more links similar to above about IK, Bushra Bibi and cohort about accusations of their financial corruption here so lets not do this silly cut and paste job. Also the point about how "supposedly" your relative gave the sitting CoAS' children a Lexus remains unsubstantiated. Shame on that fool if he did give the car as a gift yet we still have no way to validate what you state to be the truth so don't bother going down that path. I am not even suggesting that the children of the CoAS have not accepted gifts, but why is it that has NOW become the bete noire for PTI supporters? What was going on for the past 3+ years when IK and Gen Bajwa were in the circle of trust? Suddenly he is the worst general, the most despicable, dishonest, unpatriotic one whose name shall not be taken etc. etc. Obviously there is a huge political angle behind this character assassination now.

Lol, that is the exact definition of "circular nonsense", the ones you are labeling as cut/copy/paste are actual news reports on court proceedings, I have documents of all the rulings as well against the Kayani brothers but the point is not Kayani's or any other tom/dick/harry rather the fact that corrupt practices are employed by higher military officers and they hide behind their institution and uniform.

What makes you say so my claims are unsubstantiated? I have ample evidence, proofs but I am not just going to post it on a public platform, it involves many people, thankfully I have a far more working brain in place than Dj Ice pyar.

If you ask my personal opinion I was never fond of Bajwa and for religious reasons, now go ahead and deny it as well. And I consider it IK's biggest mistake to give an extension to Bajwa or anyone for that matter. There should be no extension, no institution, organization or company is smaller than a person, there was someone before Bajwa and there will be someone after him so "mulk ki nazuk soort e hal" is like this for 70 years and will remain so for another 700 years if things remain the same

Then we move on to the typical PTI tactics of personal attacks with ghattiya statements like "you are blinded by institutional love or perhaps the beneficiary of the corrupt practices does not imply that everything is a shit-show."

I have no financial interests with any politician or general in Pakistan and the only monetary interest that we had with the military ceased after my father stopped taking his military pension 20+ years ago.

Thank you for answering it yourself; what do they say "once a military always a military..."

I care for Pakistan and besides that I don't give a damn about PTI or PDM or any politician for that matter. I don't trust any of them, at least none from the current crop.

Perhaps if you cared to pay attention to my last post, it was about the claims about the senior generals in the running for the CoAS slot and comments on being corrupt and the usual favoritism nonsense were shared openly as if people know these folks personally. On top of that, If it is Lt Gen Faiz Hameed, then he is all good, anointed by God himself, because IK and PTI like him, yet the rest around him are all corrupt because the boss has not annointed them, rather, he called them "unpatriotic" because they did not get his seal of approval. This is why this whole conversation is a shit-show.
Lastly, I don't even want to put shade on Lt Gen Faiz Hameed by my comment above. I think he is a good officer like his cohort in the general staff. However, he is being politicized by the PTI to his own detriment with the nonsense that PTI supporters keep on spewing in his favor and the unsubstantiated vitriol against his peers due to no fault of theirs.

The feeling is mutual, I dont give a flying *uck about any of these generals they have exposed themselves, for me Faiz Hameed or any other might be exceptionally good officers but none of them are good for Pakistan and the simple reason is they will always give more weightage to the chain of command than the rule of law or what is right, maybe it's not their mistake they are trained that way. And again it is not about Imran Khan the point you people miss is generals are not Army similarly any criticism against their actions does not imply that khan is the savior.


Lastly, you seem to be well aware of each and every detail around the institution, their characters, morals, etc Kindly enlighten me about the long lists of veterans given to CMHs across the country denying them medical facilities, were these veterans less patriot than the present ones? who gave the authority to the present ones to deny them from medical? Inkay baap kay paisay sai elaj hota hai?
 
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AgNoStiC MuSliM

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And again it is not about Imran Khan
Completely agree.

We can vote out politicians whose policies and performance we don’t agree with - we can’t do that with the Army leadership which is why civilian supremacy is so critical.

So this isn’t about Imran Khan, it is about the supremacy of the elected government over the military, the supremacy of the constitution over ‘doctrine of necessity’, about the need for genuinely free and fair elections.

This is also about the military being made as transparent (outside of strategic programs) to the public as possible - the latter means independent accounting of the books of military enterprises and revocation of laws that give military owned businesses any tax or other advantages over private companies in the same sectors.

If the military owned businesses can’t compete under the same rules and tax rates as other private businesses in the same sectors, then they are inefficient and should be privatized or put under private management.
 

Jango

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However, he is being politicized by the PTI to his own detriment with the nonsense

Wait...wasn't it N that first started off with the DG ISI is playing to PTI and is propping them up, and then Fazlu accusing things of being orchestrated from Peshawar, and Maryam and Bilawal bringing him into disrepute by name and throwing shade, culminating with Zardari saying by name that 'Faiz to khudday line lag gaya hai'?

So how is PTI politicizing him? I don't recall any public statement by IK or PTI which even suggests anything to do with Gen Faiz or the current DG ISI, or even the COAS himself.

He would just be the establishment's man.

That's the thing, why should it be the establishment's man?
 

blain2

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Lol, that is the exact definition of "circular nonsense", the ones you are labeling as cut/copy/paste are actual news reports on court proceedings, I have documents of all the rulings as well against the Kayani brothers but the point is not Kayani's or any other tom/dick/harry rather the fact that corrupt practices are employed by higher military officers and they hide behind their institution and uniform.

What makes you say so my claims are unsubstantiated? I have ample evidence, proofs but I am not just going to post it on a public platform, it involves many people, thankfully I have a far more working brain in place than Dj Ice pyar.

If you ask my personal opinion I was never fond of Bajwa and for religious reasons, now go ahead and deny it as well. And I consider it IK's biggest mistake to give an extension to Bajwa or anyone for that matter. There should be no extension, no institution, organization or company is smaller than a person, there was someone before Bajwa and there will be someone after him so "mulk ki nazuk soort e hal" is like this for 70 years and will remain so for another 700 years if things remain the same



Thank you for answering it yourself; what do they say "once a military always a military..."



The feeling is mutual, I dont give a flying *uck about any of these generals they have exposed themselves, for me Faiz Hameed or any other might be exceptionally good officers but none of them are good for Pakistan and the simple reason is they will always give more weightage to the chain of command than the rule of law or what is right, maybe it's not their mistake they are trained that way. And again it is not about Imran Khan the point you people miss is generals are not Army similarly any criticism against their actions does not imply that khan is the savior.


Lastly, you seem to be well aware of each and every detail around the institution, their characters, morals, etc Kindly enlighten me about the long lists of veterans given to CMHs across the country denying them medical facilities, were these veterans less patriot than the present ones? who gave the authority to the present ones to deny them from medical? Inkay baap kay paisay sai elaj hota hai?
I see, the usual "I will tell but then I will have to kill you" excuse. If you cannot disclose, then why put out character assasination nonsense on a public forum in the first place?

Also, suddenly the "Qadiyani" angle is causing a lot of angst in the PTI camp and being used to the hilt against the sitting CoAS. FGS, if this was such a big issue, why was he given an extension by your party leader in the first place and by the way, where does this madness stop? There are many more of this sect in our armed forces, government, bureaucracy and what not. What is your "religious" solution here? Call me what you will, but I have no bone with Qadiyanis/Ahmadis as they have served Pakistan well.

You don't need to convince me on the extension issue. Before PTI-walay were all for granting him extension, I was against it (you can look up older posts here). I have never believed in it but it is not material to this discussion because your boss was the one who gave the incumbent an extension. I don't support the army for idiotic reasons including their interference in politics or extending the term of an officer and depriving the juniors of their opportunity to grow. Your Khan Bahadur made his bed by bringing the establishment to the party and now he is having to lie in it. Personally, I want a professional army. Luckily I have seen that side of the army up close and it is a sight to behold because it is an amazing outfit second to none, no doubts in my mind regardless of what the PTI herd says about it.

"Lastly, you seem to be well aware of each and every detail around the institution, their characters, morals, etc Kindly enlighten me about the long lists of veterans given to CMHs across the country denying them medical facilities, were these veterans less patriot than the present ones? who gave the authority to the present ones to deny them from medical? Inkay baap kay paisay sai elaj hota hai?"

I have never claimed to know everything there is to know about the establishment. It is just that in the face of excess bile and sheer trash that is posted as "vahee" here against the military, I think I can logically deduce what is correct and what is an exaggeration. Your point about the veterans was also discussed in another pertinent thread. Most of these folks know what is within the realm of acceptable and what is not and bashing their serving counterparts isn't going to help their case. The privileges (not rights!) being revoked is also not unprecedented as it has happened in Ayub Khan, Zia's and for entirely different reasons, in Musharraf's times too. It is just that you have social media now and back then we did not so many don't know about this. Let's also understand their words carry weight with the serving rank and file and if they are egging on mutiny and division within the military, which they were, the military has absolute authority to revoke their access to military facilities.

Thank you for answering it yourself; what do they say "once a military always a military..."
Proud, very proud of it till the day I die, insha'Allah!
 

blain2

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Wait...wasn't it N that first started off with the DG ISI is playing to PTI and is propping them up, and then Fazlu accusing things of being orchestrated from Peshawar, and Maryam and Bilawal bringing him into disrepute by name and throwing shade, culminating with Zardari saying by name that 'Faiz to khudday line lag gaya hai'?

So how is PTI politicizing him? I don't recall any public statement by IK or PTI which even suggests anything to do with Gen Faiz or the current DG ISI, or even the COAS himself.



That's the thing, why should it be the establishment's man?
Jango, "politicization" does not always mean someone being lambasted. You politicize an officer by favoring him. You have now put a "PTI man" tag on him. Just go on SM and see the singling out of LTG FH by the PTI crowd.

Today, half of the statements by the political leaders are made by their handles or handles of their supporters. Let's not kid ourselves by suggesting that IK has to name his favorite.

To your last point, which I believe escapes many PTI walay, establishment = pro-Pakistani state. The constant here is the Pakistan state which can include the political dispensation but it does not have to. As such, the military's point man will always think about the state first and then the politics. I will give you an example because this isn't just the case in Pakistan. It is just that it is more acute in Pakistan.

Recently in the US, when Trump's people went storming the Capitol Hill in Washington, no less than Gen Milley, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff, specifically passed orders (behind Trump's back) to his subordinate commands that the US military will not let Trump carry out a coup after he lost the elections. This was the senior most US military officer representing the "establishment" from letting a political actor (democratically elected in the previous elections) do things that were going to impact the country. Since then, Milley has been in Trump's cross-hairs but it is a clear example of how the "establishment" thinks and acts across the globe. This "democratic sheen" is all fine and nice but when matters get binary, the establishment and its point people will do what they think makes the most sense for the country. If anyone wants to get the details, look up "I Alone Can Fix It" :azn: by Phillip Rucker.

Pakistan is no different in this regard. Two other examples are our Afghan policies during Soviet invasion and US occupation of the country. In both cases, Pakistan was damaged but the establishment retained the same policy to attain Pakistan's long term interests regardless of who was sitting in Isb.
 
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Jango

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Jango, "politicization" does not always mean someone being lambasted. You politicize an officer by favoring him. You have now put a "PTI man" tag on him.

I agree, but who exactly has put a PTI tag on him? Was it PTI or IK? Who started the accusations in the first place? Actually, not only with Faiz Hameed, but all the way back from Shuja Pasha. Was it PTI that insinuated or hinted that the ISI is supporting them? No.

Just go on SM and see the singling out of LTG FH by the PTI crowd.

I think it is high time we stop judging social media as a barometer for anything. It is an unrestricted and free for all cesspool where anyone can say whatever they want, substantiated or not. I would put more weight on what a political leader says rather than what a frustrated teenager says on Twitter.

To your last point, which I believe escapes many PTI walay, establishment = pro-Pakistani state. The constant here is the Pakistan state which can include the political dispensation but it does not have to. As such, the military's point man will always think about the state first and then the politics. I will give you an example because this isn't just the case in Pakistan. It is just that it is more acute in Pakistan.

Then let's just do away with this sham, and simply have a system where after every 3 years the new COAS hand picks the flavor of the month and puts him in as prime minister. Why go through the facade?

If it happens as you say, and the military's point man thinks about the 'state first and then politics', why has the state been going downhill ever since the point man came in? We are losing 3-4 rupees a day even after an IMF deposit. This was unimaginable. Why did the point man not think about the state and only about politics when they agreed to conduct elections, but then after 3 hours decided against it, because ab to hamari syasat ka kabara nikal jaye ga. Why did the point man play politics and not raise prices for 2 months? And many more.

Why was that point man not the point man for 2 years?

In the end, again, let's just do away with this sham, and simply have a system where after every 3 years the new COAS hand picks the flavor of the month and puts him in as prime minister. Why go through the facade?

Recently in the US, when Trump's people went storming the Capitol Hill in Washington, no less than Gen Milley, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff, specifically passed orders (behind Trump's back) to his subordinate commands that the US military will not let Trump carry out a coup after he lost the elections. This was the senior most US military officer representing the "establishment" from letting a political actor (democratically elected in the previous elections) do things that were going to impact the country. Since this, Milley has been in Trump's cross-hairs but it is a clear example of how the "establishment" thinks and acts across the globe. This "democratic" sheen is all fine and nice but when matters get binary, the establishment and its point people will do what they think makes the most sense of the country. Pakistan is no different in this regard.

Sir, respectfully, please let's not change the context of things. Gen Milley's order was in the context of nuclear strikes, and what he said to his subordinates, that any action not be signed off unless he was in the loop, was according to the Pentagon's own handbook. He did not ask his subordinates to remove Trump from office, or put in a new blue eyed boy, or do any such thing of the sort. His directions to his subordinates were regarding military matters.

Happy to be corrected if I am missing some of the sequence of events though.
 

Black.Mamba

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I see, the usual "I will tell but then I will have to kill you" excuse. If you cannot disclose, then why put out character assasination nonsense on a public forum in the first place?
Again you miss the point, "character assassination" for you does not mean it is a lie, do you consider the possibility that the other person might be having a more authentic information than you? or you are adamat that you are aware of every single thing and no such thing ever occured?

Also, suddenly the "Qadiyani" angle is causing a lot of angst in the PTI camp and being used to the hilt against the sitting CoAS. FGS, if this was such a big issue, why was he given an extension by your party leader in the first place and by the way, where does this madness stop? There are many more of this sect in our armed forces, government, bureaucracy and what not. What is your "religious" solution here? Call me what you will, but I have no bone with Qadiyanis/Ahmadis as they have served Pakistan well.
I believe you need to update your information and facts.
  1. As per the constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan "Qadiyani" is not a sect of Islam.
  2. Unlike others, I am not distributing certificates of patriotism however as per the same constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan a non-muslim cannot be head of the armed forces.
  3. Again it comes down to the fact that armed forces consider the constitution as a piece of trash and abrogate it in whatever way they may deem fit.
My solution is either apply the constitution in its true form and spirit or throw it forever.Or change it to the new realities of modern times.

I have never claimed to know everything there is to know about the establishment. It is just that in the face of excess bile and sheer trash that is posted as "vahee" here against the military, I think I can logically deduce what is correct and what is an exaggeration. Your point about the veterans was also discussed in another pertinent thread. Most of these folks know what is within the realm of acceptable and what is not and bashing their serving counterparts isn't going to help their case. The privileges (not rights!) being revoked is also not unprecedented as it has happened in Ayub Khan, Zia's and for entirely different reasons, in Musharraf's times too. It is just that you have social media now and back then we did not so many don't know about this. Let's also understand their words carry weight with the serving rank and file and if they are egging on mutiny and division within the military, which they were, the military has absolute authority to revoke their access to military facilities.
Fair point as per the revoking their access however referring back to Zia, Ayub, Musharaf (dictatorial times) is a weak argument maybe they were wrongs of the past but this requires a different discussion all together.

Proud, very proud of it till the day I die, insha'Allah!
Good for you but me being a civilian cannot possibly comprehend the idea of instituion/organization first and country second. It is Pakistan first and everything else second.
 

SaadH

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No one here know who it will be, but even a child will tell what he's going to be, a loyal colonial sepoy...
 

Colonel_Hardstone

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جنرل عاصم منیر اور لیفٹیننٹ کرنل حیدر امجد کا دلچسپ کیس؟ آرمی چیف کی تقرری کی نئی کہانی​

 
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