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Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ?

Wingman

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A typing error occurred above........"why dont we just stick Pakistani Pilots"....Why don't we just stick to Pakistani Pilots.....means Discuss Pakistani Pilots First...
 

duhastmish

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I know this one called - muradk - good fighter - suppose to be one- sher ka bachha - from the stories i heard about him :Cheers:
 

gambit

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Apr 28, 2009
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I have been following this discussion and I think the discussion is seriously misguided. The word 'ever' is loaded. It imply for all time, past, present and future and it is inappropriate. No matter how good a pilot he is limited by his machine. The best machine of the current technology that is available to him. Saburo Sakai, one of Imperial Japan's best aces, admitted that if given a g-suit without training on what the device does, he would have crashed and burned. There is a serious science behind HUD symbology and this device would give Richard Bong, an American WW II ace, a serious case of information overload.

HUD basics

Technically speaking, it is 'Eyes Up Display' but 'HUD' is generally accepted by all.

Modern technology does not, as popularly believe, remove any pilot workload but shift them. Computerized flight control systems demand that the pilot shift his limited human resources to other areas such as precision ground attack as well as aerial combat. So called 'smart' weapons demand the pilot shift his limited human resources to devise ways to ingress heavily defended target areas. And so on.

The more appropriate discussion should be on who could be the best pilot of his era. For example...John Boyd...

John Boyd - USAF, The Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of Air Warfare
As an instructor at the Fighter Weapons School (FWS) at Nellis AFB, he fought students, cadre pilots, Marine and Navy pilots, and pilots from a dozen countries, who were attending the FWS as part of the Mutual Defense Assistance Pact.

He never lost.

Boyd was famous for a maneuver he called "flat-plating the bird." He would be in the defensive position with a challenger tight on his tail, both pulling heavy Gs, when he would suddenly pull the stick full aft, brace his elbows on either side of the cockpit, so the stick would not move laterally, and stomp the rudder. It was as if a manhole cover were sailing through the air and then suddenly flipped 90 degrees. The underside of the fuselage, wings, and horizontal stabilizer became a speed brake that slowed the Hun from 400 knots to 150 knots in seconds. The pursuing pilot was thrown forward and now Boyd was on his tail radioing "Guns. Guns. Guns."

The myth of "Forty-Second Boyd" still rankles AF fighter pilots. They say there is no "best" pilot; that everyone has a bad day. But if they went through Nellis in the late 1950s, they know Boyd had no bad days. And they cannot come up with the name of anyone who ever defeated him.
Is arguably the best pilot of his era. He routinely did the so called 'cobra maneuver' in a less capable design than what the Russians did with a superior design and stole the credit. US pilots flew more often than any other air forces and it is difficult to argue against a man who, for all we know, never lost a challenge. Boyd's thesis on energy management in an aerial engagement is the standard to this day. Lest anyone point out that these are simulated combat engagements, he should ask himself if he is willing to face an Olympic class fencer with no protection and a real saber, after all, this fencer won nothing but simulated combat engagements, no?
 

Wingman

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Any time you start I will follow.:pakistan::cheers::pakistan:
List of the pilots whom I am known, heard or read, given below.

1. MM Alam
2. Allaudin Ahmed Butch
3. Jamal A Khan
4. Hakim ullah
5. F S Hussain
6. Masroor Hussain
7. Sarfraz A Rafiqui
8. Middle Coat



1. MHK Dotani (above 6000 hrs flying served in PAF & abu dhabi AF)
2. Sattar Alvi (2 kills in 1973 yom kippur war)
3. Hasnat Ahmed
4. Shams ul Haq (As F/O he shot 3 IAF aircrafts on 03.12.1971)
5. Abdur Razzaq
6. Khalid Mehmood (3 kills in soviet afghan war)
7. Athar Bukhari
8. Kaiser Tufail

At least we can discuss them...some have experince of both wars, one war, we can discuss their records, performance in exercises, dogfights etc.
 

Arsalan

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go ahead with it dreamer and Sir. MuradK, something about there values and personality. i would even like to know how where they our of the planes!! i mean we have read a lot about there professional skills and acheivement but i think Sir.MuradK is the best one here to put some light on them in there normal personalities!!
pleas sir go ahead,
nice thoughts dreamer,,

regards!
 

Muradk

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Apr 25, 2006
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I think Col Giora Epstein, watch the vedio on youtube
I think my son has already shed light on Giora kills he has 10 confirmed kills 1 unconfirmed, I was in the vicinity when this happed ;) Where I cant say he shot pilots how had 10 to 15 hours of flight time and no combat experience no wounder he got so many, Plus I am sorry to say that training the Arabs was so difficult because they just didn't get it, In the morning you spent 2 hours training him and in the evening he forgets all. I have students all over the world according to my log book I have a total of 144 students, I have never raised my voice on any one but when training Arabs they brought me to a point where I would just think put my ejection pin in and eject which will throw him out of the plane:lol::lol:

The best pilot I have seen my self
Nur khan no one could match his skills.
we have a lot of pilots in PAF who have broken world records of all kind .
In IAF Ratore was the best.
 

Muradk

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List of the pilots whom I am known, heard or read, given below.

1. MM Alam
2. Allaudin Ahmed Butch
3. Jamal A Khan
4. Hakim ullah
5. F S Hussain
6. Masroor Hussain
7. Sarfraz A Rafiqui
8. Middle Coat

:
1. MHK Dotani (above 6000 hrs flying served in PAF & abu dhabi AF)
2. Sattar Alvi (2 kills in 1973 yom kippur war)
3. Hasnat Ahmed
4. Shams ul Haq (As F/O he shot 3 IAF aircrafts on 03.12.1971)
5. Abdur Razzaq
6. Khalid Mehmood (3 kills in soviet afghan war)
7. Athar Bukhari
8. Kaiser Tufail

At least we can discuss them...some have experince of both wars, one war, we can discuss their records, performance in exercises, dogfights etc.

In this list there are 2 names who have broken world records which are still holding.:pakistan:
 

shr_bwp

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...snip....


1. MHK Dotani (above 6000 hrs flying served in PAF & abu dhabi AF)
2. Sattar Alvi (2 kills in 1973 yom kippur war)
3. Hasnat Ahmed
4. Shams ul Haq (As F/O he shot 3 IAF aircrafts on 03.12.1971)
5. Abdur Razzaq
6. Khalid Mehmood (3 kills in soviet afghan war)
7. Athar Bukhari
8. Kaiser Tufail

At least we can discuss them...some have experince of both wars, one war, we can discuss their records, performance in exercises, dogfights etc.
I am just curious - being new on this forum - where and what are the above doing these days???

Also in reference to Mr. Muradk's comment earlier in this thread about none of them making the higher echelons of PAF command....sad. Let me, just for discussion sake, suggest an alternative explanation as to why they do not get to higher command: sometimes it is hard for trained "killers" to become good managers. Anyone who has ever achieved anything in "management" recognises that "***-kissing" is a necessary evil. For fighter pilots who HAVE killed their enemy, so to speak, it may be a difficult thing to do. Just my two cents.............


PS: as per this .pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/1971war/threedays.html

a Flight Lieutenant "Schames" shot down 3 in Dacca - there was another Shams who did the same??? ---- wow!!!! or is this the same guy?????
 
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Muradk

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Apr 25, 2006
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I am just curious - being new on this forum - where and what are the above doing these days???

Also in reference to Mr. Muradk's comment earlier in this thread about none of them making the higher echelons of PAF command....sad. Let me, just for discussion sake, suggest an alternative explanation as to why they do not get to higher command: sometimes it is hard for trained "killers" to become good managers. Anyone who has ever achieved anything in "management" recognises that "***-kissing" is a necessary evil. For fighter pilots who HAVE killed their enemy, so to speak, it may be a difficult thing to do. Just my two cents.............


PS: as per this .pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/1971war/threedays.html

a Flight Lieutenant "Schames" shot down 3 in Dacca - there was another Shams who did the same??? ---- wow!!!! or is this the same guy?????

Sorry friend your conclusions are wrong.
Everyone in the list were die hard fighters all of them got heart problems, Flying takes a toll out of you. You have to stay fit for as long you are in PAF as a fighter pilot.
Our Killer Instinct used to go away when we landed all the above were excellent leaders and showed promise, Only thing wrong with them was most of them were crazy about flying they used to pull more hours than then there whole SQD.

Most of them are working on JF-17 project, Why not use the best of the best for our future.
Khalid Mahmood just became Grade 20 officer and Dotani retired at grade 22 back in the 90s, Rest of them some are retired and enjoying there lives and rest are working at the same scale they retired as civilians consultants with PAF.
 
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