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Vietnam: ASEAN’s New De Facto Leader?

Mista

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Thailand is much more developed and strong economically,average thai are probably the richest in ASEAN(singapore is more of a city in south east asia) and has the strongest purchasing power in south east asia, at developed east Asian nation lvl ,despite their thai baht being rigged to stay low .
Barring Singapore and Brunei, Malaysia has the highest purchasing power IIRC. It's at a similar level with Eastern Europe.
 

Leishangthem

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Barring Singapore and Brunei, Malaysia has the highest purchasing power IIRC. It's at a similar level with Eastern Europe.
singapore is just a city state ,brunei will never be any representative of asean,they are a tiny island( hence I missed) despite their higher income they are too few, too small,to have any impact.
Malaysia has lower per capita income.
For example,Thailand is the only non-east asian country that can easily afford large scale Kpop concerts of top acts in their country.
Vietnam still can't,Indonesia is still lacking,malaysia can't.
 

Indos

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singapore is just a city state ,brunei will never be any representative of asean,they are a tiny island( hence I missed) despite their higher income they are too few, too small,to have any impact.
Malaysia has lower per capita income.
For example,Thailand is the only non-east asian country that can easily afford large scale Kpop concerts of top acts in their country.
Vietnam still can't,Indonesia is still lacking,malaysia can't.
LOL man, K POP concert never become a parameter to asses nation Geopolitical weigh :sick:, but if you want to come down into that level, I want to say that Indonesian is prefer to have Guns And Rose concert in their country :devil:

GNR concert, Jakarta


Just at the same year, Celine Dion Concert, Jakarta


@KAL-EL @dbc
 
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dbc

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LOL man, K POP concert never become a parameter to asses nation Geopolitical weigh :sick:, but if you want to come down into that level, I want to say that Indonesian is prefer to have Guns And Rose concert in their country :devil:

GNR concert, Jakarta


Just at the same year, Celine Dion Concert, Jakarta


@KAL-EL @dbc
Yes I saw U2 live in Jakarta ten years ago .. I love Indonesia ..... I love all tropical island people.
They are so warm and friendly and such a positive outlook on life.

K POP ..geo political weight .... :lol:
 

Nike

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LOL man, K POP concert never become a parameter to asses nation Geopolitical weigh :sick:, but if you want to come down into that level, I want to say that Indonesian is prefer to have Guns And Rose concert in their country :devil:

GNR concert, Jakarta


Just at the same year, Celine Dion Concert, Jakarta


@KAL-EL @dbc
Compared to K Pop or Heavy metal, look at local wisdom


 

Leishangthem

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LOL man, K POP concert never become a parameter to asses nation Geopolitical weigh :sick:, but if you want to come down into that level, I want to say that Indonesian is prefer to have Guns And Rose concert in their country :devil:

GNR concert, Jakarta


Just at the same year, Celine Dion Concert, Jakarta


@KAL-EL @dbc
kPOP is one of the most baring merits to gauge the purchasing power of a nation,though it may sound ridiculous.It's one of the genre that's mostly supported by the rich folk as hobby .
Bulk order of albums and ticketing power gives ample indication of economic might of a nation.
The venues you showed don't look too big and guns & roses or celine dion's concert tickets aren't really as expensive as top kpop act's ,I mean in the league of Bigbang,bts,exo,girls generation,suju,Blackpink (as of recent) these acts' significant online fanbase comes from indonesia.
But the ticket sales is always a struggle despite the high popularity of certain kpop groups in Indonesia,in thailand tickets of most popular kpop acts sells in a blip.Only concert tickets in Japan(especially due to lottery) & SK, sell out quicker.
 
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nufix

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kPOP is one of the most baring merits to gauge the purchasing power of a nation,though it may sound ridiculous.It's one of the genre that's mostly supported by the rich folk as hobby .
Bulk order of albums and ticketing power gives ample indication of economic might of a nation.
The venues you showed don't look too big and guns & roses or celine dion's concert tickets aren't really as expensive as top kpop act's ,I mean in the league of Bigbang,bts,exo,girls generation,suju,Blackpink (as of recent) these acts' significant online fanbase comes from indonesia.
But the ticket sales is always a struggle despite the popularity of certain kpop groups in Indonesia,in thailand tickets of most popular kpop acts sells in a blip.Only concert tickets in Japan & sk sellsout quicker.
There is a flaw in your theory. You are talking as if people’s music taste are uniform. But it isn’t.

indonesia is much more diverse in music taste. Indonesian Kpop fansnbases, while big, are usually open to another genre of music, especially electronic dance music. In fact, Indonesia is home to Asia’s biggest EDM events, the Djakarta Warehouse Project with an average attendance of around 90,000. DWP tickets are slightly more expensive than Blackpink. DWP starts at USD 80 whereas BP starts at 50-60.

Chinese, Thai, Malays, SG came to Indonesia to attend the festival where Martin Garix or Calvin harris performed.

 
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Leishangthem

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There is a flaw in your theory. You are talking as if people’s music taste are uniform. But it isn’t.

indonesia is much more diverse in music taste. Indonesian Kpop fansnbases, while big, are usually open to another genre of music, especially electronic dance music. In fact, Indonesia is home to Asia’s biggest EDM events, the Djakarta Warehouse Project with an average attendance of around 90,000. DWP tickets are slightly more expensive than Blackpink. Chinese, Thai, Malays, SG came to Indonesia to attend the festival where Martin Garix or Da
I'm talking about kpop fans,not average civilians,and Indonesia has tons of those fans ,probably one of the largest fanbase in the world ,The parity between fandom and actual yield in monetary support gets apparent.
It's a fact Thai has higher per capita income and purchasing power,the baht doesn't give actual indication of Thailand's real purchasing power .So the thai civilians spend like that of a moderately higher-income country.It will be the same with Indonesia or Vietnam when they'd start entering the moderately high income bracket.
Indonesia is home to Asia’s biggest EDM events, the Djakarta Warehouse Project with an average attendance of around 90,000. DWP tickets are slightly more expensive than Blackpink. Chinese, Thai, Malays, SG came to Indonesia to attend the festival where Martin Garix or Da
Those are typical music festivals with long list of artist ,in such events random-a*s people attend to just have a good time,it can't be compared to proper kpop concert with big production, attended by fans that can afford.
And nope,bp tickets price at 150 $ was definitely higher .
In Thailand ,the ticket prices are at least 50 $ more in comparison.
 

nufix

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I'm talking about kpop fans,not average civilians,and Indonesia has tons of those fans ,probably one of the largest fanbase in the world ,The parity between fandom and actual yield in monetary support gets apparent.
It's a fact Thai has higher per capita income and purchasing power,the baht doesn't give actual indication of Thailand's real purchasing power .So the thai civilians spend like that of a moderately higher-income country.It will be the same with Indonesia or Vietnam when they'd start entering the moderately high income bracket.

Those are typical music festivals with long list of artist ,in such events random-a*s people attend to just have a good time,it can't be compared to proper kpop concert with big production, attended by fans that can afford.
And nope,bp tickets price at 150 $ was definitely higher .
In Thailand ,the ticket prices are at least 50 $ more in comparison.
That’s your issue, you think KPOP is the only genre people will pay for where in fact KPOP is just of many genres out there. The pricing of KPOP concerts in Indonesia that was as low as USD 50-60 show that the promotors believe that Indonesian KPOP fansbase are not as willing to pay as in, say, Thailand. Like I said, KPOP fans in Indonesia do not exclusively listen to KPOP. In any case, that doesnt mean Indonesians cant afford to spend more for concerts. For the right concerts, Indonesians were willing to pay more.

And it doesnt matter how big the production behind the stage, what matters is the ticke prices and the attendance since we are talking about purchasing power. Can I say that because EDM concerts are not significant in Thailand, the Thais dont have money for it? That is a strange logic.

If EDM festivals cannot be used to measure Thai real purchasing power, so does KPOP. There are better measurements out there that we can agree on, but not KPOP lol 😂
 

Leishangthem

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That’s your issue, you think KPOP is the only genre people will pay for where in fact KPOP is just of many genres out there. The pricing of KPOP concerts in Indonesia that was as low as USD 50-60 show that the promotors believe that Indonesian KPOP fansbase are not as willing to pay as in, say, Thailand. Like I said, KPOP fans in Indonesia do not exclusively listen to KPOP. In any case, that doesnt mean Indonesians cant afford to spend more for concerts. For the right concerts, Indonesians were willing to pay more.

And it doesnt matter how big the production behind the stage, what matters is the ticke prices and the attendance since we are talking about purchasing power. Can I say that because EDM concerts are not significant in Thailand, the Thais dont have money for it? That is a strange logic.

If EDM festivals cannot be used to measure Thai real purchasing power, so does KPOP. There are better measurements out there that we can agree on, but not KPOP lol 😂
music festivals and concerts are totally different events.
 

nufix

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music festivals and concerts are totally different events.
Granted but still, it doesnt matter, what matters is the price that people have to pay to attend both events. We are talking about purchasing power. There are EDM fans in Indonesia, they paid for the ticket, the same applies to your Thai KPOP fans theory.
 

Leishangthem

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Granted but still, it doesnt matter, what matters is the price that people have to pay to attend both events. We are talking about purchasing power. There are EDM fans in Indonesia, they paid for the ticket, the same applies to your Thai KPOP fans theory.
What I said would fit with the economic spectrum of any nation,each nation has a price point of affordability,in country like india ,being 1.2b in population,consequently, there are still quite a bit of people that can afford 200$ tickets ,but the ticket price of kpop acts would be above the price point at which average Indians are comfortable spending,hence despite huge popularity of bts & blackpink ,these acts don't tour india,their average ticket price is just something most Indians wouldn't be comfortable paying.So local concert organisers aren't able to afford acts on the lvl of bts or blackpink,atleast until now. Similarly there's a price point that indonesians are also comfortable with .And apparently, the indonesian concert organisers are stretching thin between margins to make profit using numbers.
 

mike2000 is back

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Vietnam is one of the more politically stable countries in Southeast Asia. The one-party state is ruled by the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV), which provides strategic direction and decides on all major policy issues while internal conflicts are strictly controlled.

This compares favourably to other ASEAN member states like Thailand for instance, that over the past few months, has seen yet another wave of student protests that are tied to wider domestic political struggles.

The fragility of the ruling government, the coronavirus outbreak, and the economic slowdown has formed a “triple-whammy crisis” for Malaysia while Singapore is still grappling with its migrant dormitories COVID-19 infections and the political aftermath of its recent general election.
True, one party communist state(and other one man rule dictators) has it's benefits, but also disadvantages, since it's good when things are going well, However when things go wrong it is a disaster for the whole country. Just look at former one party communist states/one man rule countries who collapsed in the past from Soviet Union to Romania to Libya etc, it had devastating impact on the country, since communist one party state regard themselves as the country itself. There is no distinction between political party and state/country. Since the communist party regards itself as the country itself and sometimes even puts itself above the country, so when that party collapses its creates a huge vacuum and leads to even more instability as different actors jostle for power amid their own greed. Same almost happened with China in the 1990 Tiananmen uprisings, the country could have gone in a totally different direction had the uprisings succeeded. So yes authoritarian dictatorial one party states have their benefits but also their flaws, and when their fall comes NOBODY USUALLY EXPECTS IT, since it's happens spontaneously and fast.
In Europe Germany is only about 30% larger then France or Italy but is considered as an unofficial leader of EU.
France will harshly dispute that assertion. :partay:
USA Government perspective

U.S.-INDONESIA RELATIONS


Indonesia is a vital partner in the Indo-Pacific Region and U.S.-Indonesia relations have taken on increasing importance. Indonesia is the world’s third largest democracy, largest Muslim-majority country, the seventh-largest economy by purchasing power, and a leader in ASEAN.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recent Diplomacy

Indonesia is still able to show its leadership in ASEAN recently with his ability to make other ASEAN members adopt his Indo Pacific concept in the middle of 2019.

Indonesia has been quite passive a leader in ASEAN to be honest. Indonesia needs to be much more assertive and needs to show its leadership in a more open role than taking passive stances in most crucial issues. That's how a leader should behave, just being the biggest doesn't means you are automatically the leader, you have to earn and show it.
However, i don't think Australia will allow Indonesia to be more assertive in this role, since it wont be to Australia's interests either. So therein comes the dilemma as well.
 
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nufix

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What I said would fit with the economic spectrum of any nation,each nation has a price point of affordability,in country like india ,being 1.2b in population,consequently, there are still quite a bit of people that can afford 200$ tickets ,but the ticket price of kpop acts would be above the price point at which average Indians are comfortable spending,hence despite huge popularity of bts & blackpink ,these acts don't tour india,their average ticket price is just something most Indians wouldn't be comfortable paying.So local concert organisers aren't able to afford acts on the lvl of bts or blackpink,atleast until now. Similarly there's a price point that indonesians are also comfortable with .And apparently, the indonesian concert organisers are stretching thin between margins to make profit using numbers.
Indonesian KPOP concerts organizers you mean? Because rock concerts in Indonesia could easily draw 30 to 40k attendance per performance with comparable price points. Other music events could draw bigger numbers. And it is not like those KPOP arent coming at all to Indonesia since the attendance is still pretty decent at 10-15k.

Price point wise, the price of kpop concert bts also start at 60 usd in thailand. Comparable to Indonesia. But as you said, the key word here is comfortable. Apparently Indonesians are more comfortable spending 60 USD and more on some music concerts/festivals/events of other genres.

 

Nike

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True, one party communist state(and other one man rule dictators) has it's benefits, but also disadvantages, since it's good when things are going well, However when things go wrong it is a disaster for the whole country. Just look at former one party communist states/one man rule countries who collapsed in the past from Soviet Union to Romania to Libya etc, it had devastating impact on the country, since communist one party state regard themselves as the country itself. There is no distinction between political party and state/country. Since the communist party regards itself as the country itself and sometimes even puts itself above the country, so when that party collapses its creates a huge vacuum and leads to even more instability as different actors jostle for power amid their own greed. Same almost happened with China in the 1990 Tiananmen uprisings, the country could have gone in a totally different direction had the uprisings succeeded. So yes authoritarian dictatorial one party states have their benefits but also their flaws, and when their fall comes NOBODY USUALLY EXPECTS IT, since it's happens spontaneously and fast.

France will harshly dispute that assertion. :partay:

Indonesia has been quite passive a leader in ASEAN to be honest. Indonesia needs to be much more assertive and needs to show its leadership in a more open role than taking passive stances in most crucial issues. That's how a leader should behave, just being the biggest doesn't means you are automatically the leader, you have to earn and show it.
However, i don't think Australia will allow Indonesia to be more assertive in this role, since it wont be to Australia's interests either. So therein comes the dilemma as well.
ASEAN non interference policy is Indonesia brainchild and willingness to put on hold our ego after adventurous and Punch above the weight Soekarno regime foreign policy almost bring Indonesia a total disaster. You will not see in other region, a Country with stature like Indonesia compared to their neighbour in the region willing to do humble work, being lead the rest more as mediator and initiator of economy and cultural cooperation, instead of military posturing and interference of their neighbour internal policy. From middle east with the struggle of Saudi-Turkey and Iran, South Asia India and Pakistan nasty behavior, East Asia China rising assertiveness, North America and South America USA hegemony, West Africa Nigeria with their ECOWAS and so on.

If Indonesia starting to become more aggressive and puting the air over their neighbour just like what Soekarno did in the past, i bet ASEAN will be collapse from that's day. What Indonesia did, let the rest of ASEAN being more focused to build their economy and human resource instead spent hundreds Billion US Dollar for decades as a results for become being too wary because your much larger neighbour had very large military and aggressive foreign policy.

Well, the current Geo Political situation is very different though, US itself admit their military and economy influence can't match China in the region, and with the US possibility of withdrawal from the area in case of Hot situation in against China. It Made some Indonesia policy maker being wary, afterall we are free riding from US hegemony and regional security guarantor, with the absen of US presence all Nation must change their thinking and policy.
 

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