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Dalit

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About BELL AH-1Z Viper option

1.
Hussain Haqqani was being vocal against delivery of BELL AH-1Z Viper to Pakistan as far back in 2015.


2. BELL did produce AH-1Z Viper for Pakistan Army:




3. But there was disagreement over payment method eventually:

The AH-1Z is technically available, but Pakistan insists on funding it using Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and Coalition Support Funds (CSF) – two assistance instruments the Trump Administration froze in 2017. Otherwise, Pakistan opted not to use its own national funds to finance its AH-1Z purchase (and it walked away from doing the same for eight approved F-16C/D Block-52+ in 2016).

LINK: https://quwa.org/2020/03/08/pakistan-may-revise-attack-helicopter-procurement-plans-2/

Could this be the reason why USA is upset?
Could this be the reason why USA refused to cooperate in Turkey-Pakistan dealing?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
@SABRE

FYI

@Dalit
@AsianLion
@Trango Towers

Please check post of @araz above as well. Situation is increasingly clear now.


Dear Sir,

There is no harm in striving for better education prospects. Thousands of Chinese availed American scholarships as well.
In my opinion, the Americans are simply being jerks. They are frustrated and angry with Pakistan. Especially the established order i.e. the deep state. The Americans utilised Pakistan during the Cold War. Subsequently the Americans ditched Pakistan. After 9/11 the Americans again needed Pakistan. Relations turned really bad during this period. So bad that it affected it every aspect of the relationship.

The US was never going to provide Pakistan with any offensive weapons. Not even during the Cold War. The F-16s were sold/provided very reluctantly. On both occasions the Americans had little choice, but to sell the F-16s in exchange for services. I believe that today we have reached a stage where Pakistan US relations are confined to Afghanistan and India. The Americans view Pakistan through Afghan and Indian prism. This limits the relationship.
 

araz

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The money is small potatoes. The real question is even simpler than that: how does allowing Pakistan access to such a potent force multiplier further US national interests?
Irrespective of the size of the potatoes this is a war of wills. US has a histroy of reneging on arrangements. It was done post 1st Iraq war with none other than its lap puppy Britain, with the Sauds and the-Kuwaitis in the late 70s and the German when they asked for their 6 billion dollars worth of bullion. It wants to play the same game with Paklands. "We make a deal and then renege on it get you to pay for it and perhaps even then not provide the-stuff". Pakistan this time wants to say "you have put restrictions on the-stuff we use ofthe stuff you have supplied us then at least pay for it. Since the US currently does not have-wny interests in Pakistan and Pakistan's affiliations with China cannot be broken it maybe a way to squeez the balls a little bit. The irony is both-sides think they have got each other by the balls and it is now a case of who says ouch first.
Regarding the exchequer and finances of Pakistan and-use of US influence to-keep the WB engaged along with the-stick of FATF, the US wants a weak but not totally bankrupt Pakistan.
So where do we go from here? Pakistan has too-much US-equipment to-walk-away from-US. US is fearful of losing any influence over Pakistan. So talks will go on in exchange of-some pennies from IMF, WB. THERE WILL NOT BE-ANY RELEASE OF FMS or CSF. If the US really gets tied up in Afghanistan it-will release the Zulus as rusting equipment is no good to anyone. Otherwise pakistan will wait for the-Turkish programme to mature and join in. I have just expressed my personal thoughts so feel free to disagree.
A
 
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The Maverick

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I hope we transition to fighting with our own weapons developed from our own technologies. Let's stop latching onto this big power bias towards the US or China in our decision-making.

I'd rather fly JF-17s for 20 years longer than intended if it meant we could field the latest technology at-par with everyone else 20 years from now.

The Chinese made due with building variants of F-7s and Type 052/053 frigates while designing the J-10 and Type 054 in parallel. But when they got an offer to partner with someone to produce helicopters at home, they did that too.

I'd pay $10 B to buy the mentality that drove China to reach its current point before paying for any Chinese military hardware. We need to enrich our thinking, planning and foresight, and stop stressing over ad hoc situations to justify expensive imports.

Seriously, let's believe in Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Just completely contradicting myself earlier, but I wouldn't mind spendin
100% Agree With Buddy ...........The only way to fight and win a war is with your own Weapons .

TELL ME SOMETHING .......... Complete honesty

When you see your neighbour design and Building inducting this below
Why the jibes and ridiculous bury head in sand attitude

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You constantly criticise india .........it took long ... etc etc etc.

Buddy it takes decades to build the eco system.

Personally i feel in south Asia India is way way ahead in partial self sufficiency
But still along away to go

Sometime i feel there is a little envy and fear that india is heading in the direction that you guys to wish to go but lack the funding research and partners to truely excel at this moment in time
 

Trango Towers

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100% Agree With Buddy ...........The only way to fight and win a war is with your own Weapons .

TELL ME SOMETHING .......... Complete honesty

When you see your neighbour design and Building inducting this below
Why the jibes and ridiculous bury head in sand attitude

View attachment 723693
View attachment 723694

View attachment 723695


View attachment 723696
View attachment 723697

View attachment 723698


You constantly criticise india .........it took long ... etc etc etc.

Buddy it takes decades to build the eco system.

Personally i feel in south Asia India is way way ahead in partial self sufficiency
But still along away to go

Sometime i feel there is a little envy and fear that india is heading in the direction that you guys to wish to go but lack the funding research and partners to truely excel at this moment in time
See you Indians have a sickness. You just blow your own trumpet and lie and add more lies to justify the original lie. In fact you don't even belive yourself.
Know one thing. Weapons don't win wars. Men and women behind the weapons win wars. You lack the men and women.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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100% Agree With Buddy ...........The only way to fight and win a war is with your own Weapons .

TELL ME SOMETHING .......... Complete honesty

When you see your neighbour design and Building inducting this below
Why the jibes and ridiculous bury head in sand attitude

View attachment 723693
View attachment 723694

View attachment 723695


View attachment 723696
View attachment 723697

View attachment 723698


You constantly criticise india .........it took long ... etc etc etc.

Buddy it takes decades to build the eco system.

Personally i feel in south Asia India is way way ahead in partial self sufficiency
But still along away to go

Sometime i feel there is a little envy and fear that india is heading in the direction that you guys to wish to go but lack the funding research and partners to truely excel at this moment in time
To be honest, if I was leading Pakistan, I wouldn't be afraid of what India has or doesn't have.

Rather, I'd be angry about how Pakistan isn't sourcing its needs domestically.

I'd be angry about how the hard-earned money of Pakistanis is flowing out to help foreign rich guys through imports.

I'd be angry about how we're (as a society) fixated on fluffy stupid things (like YouTube comments about a Pakistani missile test) than about how the gov't is performing, why unqualified people staff the bureaucracy or state-owned enterprises, etc.

If we see the day that Pakistan is actually run by a competent and sincere establishment, it will be game over for India, for China, for Saudi Arabia, the US, and everyone else who's wronged us.

We Pakistanis have the work ethic, the killer instinct, the charm, and every good quality. We actually do. You don't create Imran Khans, Wasim Akrams, Jahangir Khans, and so on and so forth if you're a society of dullards. IMHO this self-hating BS is one of the worst things to afflict Pakistanis.

The problem is that we're stuck in a rut of epic proportions in which leadership (i.e., the top plus the general system running the country) sucks. So the good qualities can't shine.

Bad leadership almost always introduces the rot, and the folks within the system can only do so much without the authority to stop it. It's easy for me to remove a crap employee if I have the power to do it, but I can't stop a bad boss.

I'll be optimistic and say that the change is coming. I don't know when or how, but statistically, it has to happen eventually. Sure it might be by a sheer force of fate -- like the 1992 World Cup -- but it'll come.
 
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Trango Towers

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To be honest, if I was leading Pakistan, I wouldn't be afraid of what India has or doesn't have.

Rather, I'd be angry about how Pakistan isn't sourcing its needs domestically.

I'd be angry about how the hard-earned money of Pakistanis is flowing out to help foreign rich guys through imports.

I'd be angry about how we're (as a society) fixated on fluffy stupid things (like YouTube comments about a Pakistani missile test) than about how the gov't is performing, why unqualified people staff the bureaucracy or state-owned enterprises, etc.

If we see the day that Pakistan is actually run by a competent and sincere establishment, it will be game over for India, for China, for Saudi Arabia, the US, and everyone else who's wronged us.

We Pakistanis have the work ethic, the killer instinct, the charm, and every good quality. We actually do.

The problem is that we're stuck in a rut of epic proportions in which leadership (i.e., the top plus the general system running the country) sucks. So the good qualities can't shine.

I'll be optimistic and say that the change is coming. I don't know when or how, but statistically, it has to happen eventually. Sure it might be by a sheer force of fate -- like the 1992 World Cup -- but it'll come.
Or 2017 icc cup that was won by India before the match
 

denel

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US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan
Anwar IqbalPublished March 10, 2021 - Updated less than a minute ago
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The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform. — Anadolu Agency

The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform. — Anadolu Agency
WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.
The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021
why not get engines seperately and directly from US
To be honest, if I was leading Pakistan, I wouldn't be afraid of what India has or doesn't have.

Rather, I'd be angry about how Pakistan isn't sourcing its needs domestically.

I'd be angry about how the hard-earned money of Pakistanis is flowing out to help foreign rich guys through imports.

I'd be angry about how we're (as a society) fixated on fluffy stupid things (like YouTube comments about a Pakistani missile test) than about how the gov't is performing, why unqualified people staff the bureaucracy or state-owned enterprises, etc.

If we see the day that Pakistan is actually run by a competent and sincere establishment, it will be game over for India, for China, for Saudi Arabia, the US, and everyone else who's wronged us.

We Pakistanis have the work ethic, the killer instinct, the charm, and every good quality. We actually do. You don't create Imran Khans, Wasim Akrams, Jahangir Khans, and so on and so forth if you're a society of dullards. IMHO this self-hating BS is one of the worst things to afflict Pakistanis.

The problem is that we're stuck in a rut of epic proportions in which leadership (i.e., the top plus the general system running the country) sucks. So the good qualities can't shine.

Bad leadership almost always introduces the rot, and the folks within the system can only do so much without the authority to stop it. It's easy for me to remove a crap employee if I have the power to do it, but I can't stop a bad boss.

I'll be optimistic and say that the change is coming. I don't know when or how, but statistically, it has to happen eventually. Sure it might be by a sheer force of fate -- like the 1992 World Cup -- but it'll come.
You have hit the nail on the head.

Pak needs a leader like we had here... not Mandela but PW Botha - he put the middle finger on the establishment on the onset and told us the younger generation that we are alone and there is noone to turn to. Step up and I will give you anything you need to get things going. We went leaps forward in just 10 years than we could ever before. In terms of Foreign policy, same thing. US and RUssians kept the duplicity via Cuba and us; finally it was the Cubans and Pik who sat at a bar and said f.. these idiots and fix it ourselves.

Your are right, until this yes culture to the mil establishment and having pride in taking next steps and stop bowing down to the arabs and white culture is stopped; nothing will change. Change has to come from within.

Can Pak do what we did over 40 yrs back... absolutely.... it needs good leadership and firm hand on the helm.
 

cloud4000

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The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin Turkish spokeman added.
Turkey purchased the S-400 even after vociferous opposition by fellow NATO members. Then it complains about its arms sales being blocked by US. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
 

ACE OF HEARTS

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We need to buy a small squadron 12 to 15 gunships, Super Cobra and atak T 129, to test what NEW CAPABILITIES they bring to the table.

After all our neighbor has the most advanced Apache gunships, which are more advanced then any of the three gunships being considered for purchase.

The resultant enhancements can be added to the Z 10 ME, making it further customized
 

IblinI

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100% Agree With Buddy ...........The only way to fight and win a war is with your own Weapons .

TELL ME SOMETHING .......... Complete honesty

When you see your neighbour design and Building inducting this below
Why the jibes and ridiculous bury head in sand attitude

View attachment 723693
View attachment 723694

View attachment 723695


View attachment 723696
View attachment 723697

View attachment 723698


You constantly criticise india .........it took long ... etc etc etc.

Buddy it takes decades to build the eco system.

Personally i feel in south Asia India is way way ahead in partial self sufficiency
But still along away to go

Sometime i feel there is a little envy and fear that india is heading in the direction that you guys to wish to go but lack the funding research and partners to truely excel at this moment in time
Glad that you are not a Yankees boy, otherwise your list will be 100 times longer.
Stopped wasting everyone's data and time.
 

SABRE

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About BELL AH-1Z Viper option

1.
Hussain Haqqani was being vocal against delivery of BELL AH-1Z Viper to Pakistan as far back in 2015.


2. BELL did produce AH-1Z Viper for Pakistan Army:




3. But there was disagreement over payment method eventually:

The AH-1Z is technically available, but Pakistan insists on funding it using Foreign Military Financing (FMF) and Coalition Support Funds (CSF) – two assistance instruments the Trump Administration froze in 2017. Otherwise, Pakistan opted not to use its own national funds to finance its AH-1Z purchase (and it walked away from doing the same for eight approved F-16C/D Block-52+ in 2016).

LINK: https://quwa.org/2020/03/08/pakistan-may-revise-attack-helicopter-procurement-plans-2/

Could this be the reason why USA is upset?
Could this be the reason why USA refused to cooperate in Turkey-Pakistan dealing?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa)
@SABRE

FYI

@Dalit
@AsianLion
@Trango Towers
@Pakistan Space Agency

Please check post of @araz above as well. Situation is increasingly clear now.


Dear Sir,

There is no harm in striving for better education prospects. Thousands of Chinese availed American scholarships as well.
The Americans have simply killed two birds with one stone. First, they wanted to create hurdles for Turkish arms industry because of their acquisition of S-400 system. Second, they no longer want to give free or cheap piggy back rides to Pakistan when its comes to military transaction. Much as with other countries, the U.S. policies seldom change with the change of governments, especially when it comes to foreign policies. Question for us to ponder are:

1. Why even with such a hefty defence budget we fail to purchase arms from just about everyone, even on the usual piecemeal basis?

2. Why even with such a hefty defence budget we fail to create a sophisticated military R&D structures that are less dependent on external help & are able to innovate utilising local resources? If Turkey is able to do it why can't we?

There are clear answers to both questions but neither of the answer is the one that the military or some members here would like to hear. Well ... I expect less backlash on this forum. I think @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and occasionally I have addressed both the answers/issues here now & then, in one form or the other.
 

Arsalan345

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It was expected. Anyway it doesn't affect us. we should build better relations with Sweden, Ukraine and Russia. i think we shouldn't beg for more f-16s. we should slay America now. They are doing everything in favor of India. very powerful Indian lobby in Washington. We should end all diplomatic ties with Americans. it's useless to trust Americans. even after 17 years, they blame Pakistan for Afghanistan mess.

What are we getting from americans? no money, probably spare parts for f-16s. no aid, no support in fatf. They are behaving like enemy.

Also why do we need all these weapons? to copy Indians? they are making everything in their own home now or at least trying. we aren't even trying because we can give our money to china easily. come on, wake up. make your own industry. obviously don't hire civilians without merit in this industry otherwise it will become bankrupt within months hahaha. hire engineers from other countries. ask them to help our industry. there are many who wants to help. stop complete dependence on china. make your own weapons. Try to make rifles and artillery first! Army needs better guns.
 
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Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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I'm sorry, how has China wronged Pakistan?
I don't know, but I don't care.

I've spent the better part of my life hearing everyone (incl. Chinese people) say, "there are no friends, only interests" or whatever to us Pakistanis.

We've been spoken down to.

If I was leading Pakistan, I wouldn't forget that. If that's how folks want to see us, then I'll see everyone as some kind of wrongdoer to us.

How does that affect our policies?

We'd never talk to anyone without achieving our interests and without defending the wellbeing of our people. We'd put Pakistanis first in word and in practice. If China ever wants anything of us, then I'd make demands, such as stopping China's investments in India, for a start.
 
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