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Urdu is not our language: Mahmood Khan Achakzai in PDM's Karachi gathering.

p(-)0ENiX

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What a disgusting uncouth fellow to have a discussion. Your theories will never have any impact on actual world. And yes you are a racist too. On top of it a sanskrit lover (which is full of racist literature of castes for idol worshippers but a PRESTIGIOUS language to you) because you are an ancestor worshipping bigot( Except that you dont have any direct memory of your sanskrit speaking ancestors nor are you carrying any of their cultural legacy but, comically, is a speculative claim based on a theory of languages. )
I ain't uncouth, but your previous passive aggressiveness prior to your current outlandish behaviour has made me unamicable. I am not a racist, I don't hate anyone by mere virtue of their appearance and would not and have not violated any of the natural rights conferred by God on others as a whole or as individuals. You may throw out the racist card freely in the US to shame others in to submission, but the rest of the world isn't as pusillanimous. I like Sanskrit for the same reason I like other IE classics, their excellent grammatic and syntactic structure and the fact that they provide glimpses in to the past and the development of other IE tongues. Sanskrit was a language of the literary elite at its peak, but that does not imply that it carries prestige today. Once again, avoid twisting my words. It is true that a ton of Sanskrit literature is pagan, but that was true for most tongues before their speakers deployed them for monotheistic religions. Greek was once riddled with pagan literature, but is the liturgical tongue of the Greek Orthodox Church today. I ain't an ancestor worshipping bigot, on the contrary, I am a Muslim & probably a better one than you given your intellectual dishonesty.

That pushtoon gentlemen is on far far solid ground than you ever will be with your theories. He knows his language and takes pride in his actual tongue and real heritage.
You do realize that that "Pushtoon gentleman" is displaying the same bigotry that you libellously accuse me of below? It isn't surprising that you failed to see that. He is free to be proud of his mother tongue, but that does not negate the fact that Pakistan has and currently needs a national language. Besides, Urdu is one that evolved near our turf, has historicity among us, is related to Pakistan's ethnic tongues, is spoken by the masses, and inculcates a lexical base within its vicinity. I am however open to the idea of other languages including Farsi as being a good alternative. Interestingly enough, so is English. It's an IE tongue, its speaker base and internet presence is insurmountable and it is the de facto language of science, technology, and every other field out there.

Dont you dare walk back on your racism. Let me quote what you said :
" Bengali, an IE tongue, evolved among a different race on the fringes of the Indo-Aryan speaking world and would never be acceptable to West Pakistan possibly because the implication would have been that a dark skinned people have managed to impose their tongue on a lighter skinned people despite it originating from a similar source. "
And you blame your words on "mindset" of millions of pakistanis. What twisted sophistry LOL.
You start with a fools errand of "picking" a language based on 2000 year old theory and then make an even bigger fool of yourself by layering in fairskin/darkskin and twisted sophistry tying yourself in to knots. Even Zionists have better arguments than you, laying claim on Palestine based on their so called 2000 year history.
Firstly, don't tell me what I can and cannot walk away from in that threatening tone. I can and always will make mistakes and shall always have the opportunity to correct those mistakes. Remember, we are debating on a forum and I ain't writing a religious edict, which requires precise evaluation of an idea before disbursement. Avoid that threatening tone simply because you've been spanked in the discussion so far. As for what I said, it is a mere statement of opinion that I have observed and garnered from the events as presented to me about the language dispute. Did you notice the use of the word "possibly" before the emboldened word "because"? That's because I am presenting an opinion and not explaining my feelings towards them.

At the end of the day, had the Indo-Iranians not spread their tongues, Bengalis would have been speaking their pre-Indo-Iranian tongues. Funnily enough, most of the Caucasoid phenotypes in Bangladesh are a result of migration over the ages from the north-western regions of the sub-continent and that can be attested to even today. I don't look down on anyone else & I am acutely aware of the fact that if I were to fail to constantly improve myself; I would end up being surpassed by those who concerted greater efforts. Regardless, all of them are speaking an Indo-Iranian language and those among them descending from Punjabis and Pashtuns may find solace in that. In any case, languages gain prestige on the basis of the performance of their speakers and while you might find it humorous, it remains factual that plenty of Pakistanis retain bias towards other ethnic groups. You might want to try calling the average Pakistani an Indian and observe their response. Besides, products originating from China for instance were routinely deemed inferior before the Chinese launched their own homebrewn brands.

Furthermore, the reference to the lighter skinned and darker skinned people is a euphemism for the competition between civilizations and ethnic groups. I thought you would be smart enough to understand that but I guess attempts to sully me necessitate clutching at straws. The north western region of the sub-continent, especially Pakistan has decades of history uniquely its own and plenty of people, which includes a number of Pakistani nationalists, consider the region as an intermediary between the Iranic and Indic. Why on Earth would West Pakistan want Bengali as its national tongue when Urdu better inculcates their historical experience than one evolving on the peripheries of the Indo-Aryan speaking world? Remember, answers to complex problems aren't black or white, but rather derived from shades of grey. As branches of languages disperse, they evolve to fit the evolutionary experience of those that spoke them. Think of how English was impacted by the Norman invasion. As modern day English speakers, we can't directly relate to that the way an Englishman might, but that historical occurrence is the reason why we have such a latinized language on our hands.

In any case, Bengali was eventually recognized as an official language alongside Urdu in 1956 to the dismay of many in the west whose languages did not receive such recognition. Hell that actually makes those of us in the west seem less racist to your kind and creed. The founding fathers of Pakistan on the other hand saw a singular unifying tongue as important for the development of a young nation and the imprudent resentment of Bengalis is partly responsible for the east and west divide. What provinces should have demanded is better preservation and representation for their ethnic tongues, which includes the formation of scientific terminology desperately needed for adaptation to a rapidly developing world. As for me, I would have no qualms about learning any language if the need ever arose, an example of which would be an official visit to a particular country. I ain't arrogant enough to travel to someone else's land and then claim that I couldn't give two hoots about their native tongues. Besides, all knowledge springs from God and as His creation, I have the right to avail whatever of His knowledge I desire. However, that doesn't negate the fact that I have tribalistic tendencies, which serve an important purpose. The diversity of human languages and phenotypes is the result of tribalism.

All in all, I am personally more inclined to IE lingua francas and I find solace in the fact that they are IE tongues. It doesn't matter if say "three" instead of "theen", both of which spring from the same source. You on the other hand probably cry yourself to sleep, only to end up having nightmares about the disappearance of your minor IR tongue, and then tragicomically fall out of bed to discover that your eyelids have fused.

And no - no sanskrit work has been directly translated to Arabic. It is a shitty language(PRESTIGIOUS to you) full of idol worshipping and racist praises of caste system. No surprises it has such direct appeal to your heart.
I despise the caste system, but the fools that praise it could have praised it in any language other than Sanskrit, if they had wanted to do so. Once again, you keep tossing out red herrings. I have never and shall never praise the caste system. All humans are just as capable and free to pursue a life they deem worthy without any societal stigma attached to their actions so long as their pursuits are virtuous and honorable. Far be it from me to relegate that humans are to be affixed to certain socioeconomic conditions, thereby stymying their ability to attain knowledge of the natural world or serving God. The caste system was a major hindrance to the development and progress of civilization, just as slavery was an impediment to the industrial evolution all the way back to the Roman era. As I said earlier, I am a devout Muslim and not an idol worshipper so shut the hell up and stop accusing people of paganism just because I said that Sanskrit is among the language of my forefathers and is an Indo-European language. How retarded are you?

All you do is attempt to hurl accusations and vociferous ad hominems. I know why that is, you've nothing left to say and conveniently ignored all of the other problems I highlighted in my previous post regarding the Pakistani education system. Actually, Sanskrit works have been translated directly in to Arabic by men like Al-Biruni, who incidentally, also spoke Greek and Persian, as far as I know. You might want to ponder over the fact that Urdu is a direct descendant of the Indo-Aryan tongues used by pagans. Hopefully, it keeps you up at night.

I had enough of you and your unpleasantness.
Pot and kettle.
 

Imad.Khan

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The only other language would be Farsi, brother, the Afghan variety.

If Bengal had not joined us in the beginning, it may have been a possibility.

We can always add Farsi as a second National language, actually it is long overdue.
No please not Farsi................it sounds so gay and i am not saying that coz i am Pukhtoon. My wife is a Kurd who speaks Farsi and i work with so many Iranians.
 

Imad.Khan

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A third national language should be Farsi, it is the need of the hour, and would bring us closer to Afghans, Tajiks, Eastern Iranians, and CARs.
CARs except Tajikistan speak Turkic language.
Pathan, Pakhtun, Pashtun it's all the same.
No its not, I hate to be called a Pathan. It is a word created by Indians as an insult. "Pat" means to take and "han" is short for "Khan". basically it means barbarians that came down from the mountains to loot and plunder.
 
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niaz

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The debate has raged off & on for a very long time. I am sick to death about people claiming that Urdu is not our language.

Fine, lets us agree that whatever Father of the nation and other earlier leaders decided was stupid. In 1973, only Sindh adopted Sindhi as their official language with KPK ( then NWFP) Punjab & Baluchistan adopting Urdu. The assemblies of Punjab, KPK & Baluchistan were also idiots for selecting Urdu as their official language.

Would all Urdu haters including Mr. Achkazai tell me and the rest of the nation what should be the national language that all the units of the Federation would accept? If not then all should shut up and accept whatever has been agreed by the people a lot wiser than the current lot of politicians and all the members of this forum.
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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CARs except Tajikistan speak Turkic language.
Yes, but Farsi language would give us stronger influence there.
CARs except Tajikistan speak Turkic language.


No its not, I hate to be called a Pathan. It is a word created by Indians as an insult. "Pat" means to take and "han" is short for "Khan". basically it means barbarians that came down from the mountains to loot and plunder.
Pathan is also a British surname which means the front part of a ship.
The debate has raged off & on for a very long time. I am sick to death about people claiming that Urdu is not our language.

Fine, lets us agree that whatever Father of the nation and other earlier leaders decided was stupid. In 1973, only Sindh adopted Sindhi as their official language with KPK ( then NWFP) Punjab & Baluchistan adopting Urdu. The assemblies of Punjab, KPK & Baluchistan were also idiots for selecting Urdu as their official language.

Would all Urdu haters including Mr. Achkazai tell me and the rest of the nation what should be the national language that all the units of the Federation would accept? If not then all should shut up and accept whatever has been agreed by the people a lot wiser than the current lot of politicians and all the members of this forum.
Without a common language, unity of Pakistan would be more flimsy.

Achakzai would love to see that. However these guys are fossils and Pakistan is getting more united day by day.
No please not Farsi................it sounds so gay and i am not saying that coz i am Pukhtoon. My wife is a Kurd who speaks Farsi and i work with so many Iranians.
Lol. I agree. However knowledge of Farsi would help us understand Allama Iqbal better as well.
 
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BATMAN

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Who owns the legacy of dividing nation using notions like 'Takht e Lahore' It was treasonous in my books, beside much more that once came out of pagan media cell.
 

Itachi

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No please not Farsi................it sounds so gay and i am not saying that coz i am Pukhtoon. My wife is a Kurd who speaks Farsi and i work with so many Iranians.
English probably sounds the same too to someone unused to it.

Yet here we are...
 

letsrock

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I ain't uncouth, but your previous passive aggressiveness prior to your current outlandish behaviour has made me unamicable. I am not a racist, I don't hate anyone by mere virtue of their appearance and would not and have not violated any of the natural rights conferred by God on others as a whole or as individuals. You may throw out the racist card freely in the US to shame others in to submission, but the rest of the world isn't as pusillanimous. I like Sanskrit for the same reason I like other IE classics, their excellent grammatic and syntactic structure and the fact that they provide glimpses in to the past and the development of other IE tongues. Sanskrit was a language of the literary elite at its peak, but that does not imply that it carries prestige today. Once again, avoid twisting my words. It is true that a ton of Sanskrit literature is pagan, but that was true for most tongues before their speakers deployed them for monotheistic religions. Greek was once riddled with pagan literature, but is the liturgical tongue of the Greek Orthodox Church today. I ain't an ancestor worshipping bigot, on the contrary, I am a Muslim & probably a better one than you given your intellectual dishonesty.

You do realize that that "Pushtoon gentleman" is displaying the same bigotry that you libellously accuse me of below? It isn't surprising that you failed to see that. He is free to be proud of his mother tongue, but that does not negate the fact that Pakistan has and currently needs a national language. Besides, Urdu is one that evolved near our turf, has historicity among us, is related to Pakistan's ethnic tongues, is spoken by the masses, and inculcates a lexical base within its vicinity. I am however open to the idea of other languages including Farsi as being a good alternative. Interestingly enough, so is English. It's an IE tongue, its speaker base and internet presence is insurmountable and it is the de facto language of science, technology, and every other field out there.


Firstly, don't tell me what I can and cannot walk away from in that threatening tone. I can and always will make mistakes and shall always have the opportunity to correct those mistakes. Remember, we are debating on a forum and I ain't writing a religious edict, which requires precise evaluation of an idea before disbursement. Avoid that threatening tone simply because you've been spanked in the discussion so far. As for what I said, it is a mere statement of opinion that I have observed and garnered from the events as presented to me about the language dispute. Did you notice the use of the word "possibly" before the emboldened word "because"? That's because I am presenting an opinion and not explaining my feelings towards them.

At the end of the day, had the Indo-Iranians not spread their tongues, Bengalis would have been speaking their pre-Indo-Iranian tongues. Funnily enough, most of the Caucasoid phenotypes in Bangladesh are a result of migration over the ages from the north-western regions of the sub-continent and that can be attested to even today. I don't look down on anyone else & I am acutely aware of the fact that if I were to fail to constantly improve myself; I would end up being surpassed by those who concerted greater efforts. Regardless, all of them are speaking an Indo-Iranian language and those among them descending from Punjabis and Pashtuns may find solace in that. In any case, languages gain prestige on the basis of the performance of their speakers and while you might find it humorous, it remains factual that plenty of Pakistanis retain bias towards other ethnic groups. You might want to try calling the average Pakistani an Indian and observe their response. Besides, products originating from China for instance were routinely deemed inferior before the Chinese launched their own homebrewn brands.

Furthermore, the reference to the lighter skinned and darker skinned people is a euphemism for the competition between civilizations and ethnic groups. I thought you would be smart enough to understand that but I guess attempts to sully me necessitate clutching at straws. The north western region of the sub-continent, especially Pakistan has decades of history uniquely its own and plenty of people, which includes a number of Pakistani nationalists, consider the region as an intermediary between the Iranic and Indic. Why on Earth would West Pakistan want Bengali as its national tongue when Urdu better inculcates their historical experience than one evolving on the peripheries of the Indo-Aryan speaking world? Remember, answers to complex problems aren't black or white, but rather derived from shades of grey. As branches of languages disperse, they evolve to fit the evolutionary experience of those that spoke them. Think of how English was impacted by the Norman invasion. As modern day English speakers, we can't directly relate to that the way an Englishman might, but that historical occurrence is the reason why we have such a latinized language on our hands.

In any case, Bengali was eventually recognized as an official language alongside Urdu in 1956 to the dismay of many in the west whose languages did not receive such recognition. Hell that actually makes those of us in the west seem less racist to your kind and creed. The founding fathers of Pakistan on the other hand saw a singular unifying tongue as important for the development of a young nation and the imprudent resentment of Bengalis is partly responsible for the east and west divide. What provinces should have demanded is better preservation and representation for their ethnic tongues, which includes the formation of scientific terminology desperately needed for adaptation to a rapidly developing world. As for me, I would have no qualms about learning any language if the need ever arose, an example of which would be an official visit to a particular country. I ain't arrogant enough to travel to someone else's land and then claim that I couldn't give two hoots about their native tongues. Besides, all knowledge springs from God and as His creation, I have the right to avail whatever of His knowledge I desire. However, that doesn't negate the fact that I have tribalistic tendencies, which serve an important purpose. The diversity of human languages and phenotypes is the result of tribalism.

All in all, I am personally more inclined to IE lingua francas and I find solace in the fact that they are IE tongues. It doesn't matter if say "three" instead of "theen", both of which spring from the same source. You on the other hand probably cry yourself to sleep, only to end up having nightmares about the disappearance of your minor IR tongue, and then tragicomically fall out of bed to discover that your eyelids have fused.



I despise the caste system, but the fools that praise it could have praised it in any language other than Sanskrit, if they had wanted to do so. Once again, you keep tossing out red herrings. I have never and shall never praise the caste system. All humans are just as capable and free to pursue a life they deem worthy without any societal stigma attached to their actions so long as their pursuits are virtuous and honorable. Far be it from me to relegate that humans are to be affixed to certain socioeconomic conditions, thereby stymying their ability to attain knowledge of the natural world or serving God. The caste system was a major hindrance to the development and progress of civilization, just as slavery was an impediment to the industrial evolution all the way back to the Roman era. As I said earlier, I am a devout Muslim and not an idol worshipper so shut the hell up and stop accusing people of paganism just because I said that Sanskrit is among the language of my forefathers and is an Indo-European language. How retarded are you?

All you do is attempt to hurl accusations and vociferous ad hominems. I know why that is, you've nothing left to say and conveniently ignored all of the other problems I highlighted in my previous post regarding the Pakistani education system. Actually, Sanskrit works have been translated directly in to Arabic by men like Al-Biruni, who incidentally, also spoke Greek and Persian, as far as I know. You might want to ponder over the fact that Urdu is a direct descendant of the Indo-Aryan tongues used by pagans. Hopefully, it keeps you up at night.



Pot and kettle.
Urdu may have some good reasons but not the way you are going about it. What you are really doing is building a hierarchy of languages on which urdu will come on top for pakistanis. And that hierarchy is not based on any utility of the language or its practical benefits but based on egoistical reasons whatever you can grab and showcase - 2000 year old Aryan theory, fair skin/dark skin, shitty racist science like phenotypes , lavish praise and a sense of belonging to Sanskrit to the dismay of any right thinking person.

I don't know about you or others but i find your entire approach morally repugnant, distasteful - basically a caste hierarchy of languages. Yours so called Indo aryan iranian people would have been as shitty and disgusting as indians are without semitic Islam to the rescue. It continues to be one of the most poverty stricken part of the world. Ethnic pride must be based on solidarity and achievements not imagined ancestry. what achievements are there in literature of those parts - A single western/japanese university produces more literature and knowledge/research than entirety of indo-aryan languages.

You may find a "solace" by imagining a connection of urdu with English based on language lexical whatever but no self respecting Englishman will find any solace of his language connection with urdu or pakistani. In fact they will be repelled and would rather spend time learning mandarin.

And one more thing racism has actually a chance of working in west where race differences more clear and sharp. But there is no chance of it working in pakistan where there are tens of millions of dark people. There is more need to be anti-racist as pakistani rather than American. But like most south asians I believe the dark skinned population of your country are invisible to you.
 

Cherub786

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No its not, I hate to be called a Pathan. It is a word created by Indians as an insult. "Pat" means to take and "han" is short for "Khan". basically it means barbarians that came down from the mountains to loot and plunder.
I'm not sure about your etymology lesson, but you have to admit, your people did indeed make plunder and loot of the wealth east of the Indus a way of life.
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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Urdu may have some good reasons but not the way you are going about it. What you are really doing is building a hierarchy of languages on which urdu will come on top for pakistanis.
Urdu is part of the legacy of Pakistan and it is the language pushed by our forefathers who wanted an independence state. Urdu will always be tied to Pakistan, that won't change.


Achakzai is an extremist, he doesn't speak for most Pukhtoons.

it was, now it has evolved in to Bateman
it does not, it means boatman
 

peagle

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We need Farsi language to have a larger role in Afghanistan. That is reason enough.
lol
Bro you need to stop this obsession with Farsi or Turkish or Arabic as our language, I love them, all speakers of those languages, but I will die before I accept any of those languages as mine.

You recognize that language is important in developing unity, then this constant yearning for an alien language for one reason or another just adds more confusion to the cauldron. It is not about what we want as individuals, or what a small group of us may want, it is about what is good for the collective, and what majority of the people will accept.

It's a settled issue, the people have accepted Urdu across the board in Pakistan, in every region, in every territory, in every district. There is no debate that Urdu was the most suited language for Pakistan, because the people of Pakistan in all areas were already familiar with it. It would have made no sense to introduce an alien language, and Farsi, Turkish or Arabic were and are alien languages to the majority of Pakistanis.

Just because certain amount of poetry was written in Farsi, or a smaller neighbour speaks Farsi or Arabic has links to Islam does not mean we ignore the ground reality that Urdu is part of our cultural fabric and had been since long before 1947.

Language, carries with it so many identities and meaning, implanting a language hardly spoken by anyone or a small minority is called imposition, forcing, nothing good ever comes out of forcing people to do anything, It is always a natural process. The leadership generally senses what will be accepted by the populous, primacy of Urdu among Muslims of South Asia was never in doubt, and still isn't.

This is the first time I have come across this yearning for a foreign language, never in my life I have heard this before, I have had a massive social circle over my lifetime, and the reasons put forward just do not make sense, it is simply wishful thinking, and allowing this thinking to stay alive, people such as yourself are creating unnecessary confusion. It is just not right.
 

Tair-Lahoti

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I don't know why this Roman style Pathan bark on urdu, why he hate urdu?
Firstly, Urdu is our national Language not because a small community speaks it but due to almost every Pakistani whether literate and illiterate can speak and understand it.

if he is sincerely against any foreign language enforcement then he must speak against English, which is our official language. As English isn't spoken by any of our community and not understood by by the majority and it remind us of our colonial past.

I don't know why In an ideologically Muslim state these secular ethnic Parties are allowed to exist.
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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lol
Bro you need to stop this obsession with Farsi or Turkish or Arabic as our language, I love them, all speakers of those languages, but I will die before I accept any of those languages as mine.
I think you misunderstood me. I would like to see Farsi/Dari as a third national language after Urdu and English.

I simply love Urdu, it is a versatile language, and the literature (historic, poetic, religious) is phenomenal.

There are various reasons for why we need Dari.

1. Dari is not an alien language to Pakistan. All of my grandparents spoke fluent Dari, and we have great admiration for the language. Many of the previous generations spoke Farsi/Dari as well, before British banned it.

2. Once you go to higher levels of literary Urdu, it becomes more similar to Dari.

3. We have a great poetic and philosophical tradition in Farsi as well. For example, Allama Iqbal's best poetry is in the Farsi language. Then Farsi brings us closer to Rumi and Hafez, and will promote the intellectual and religious development of our people.

4. We need to combat the rabid anti-Pakistanism in Afghanistan. The Dari language media is a breeding ground for this kind of ideology (due to Iran,) which keeps recruits gaining for terrorism against us. We have to break the cycle


گرچہ ہندی در عذوبت شکر است

garche Hindi dar uzūbat shekkar ast

طرز گفتار دري شيرين تر است

tarz-e goftar-e Dari shirin tar ast

Translation: Even though in sweetness Hindi (Urdu) is sugar – (but) speech method in Dari (Persian dialect) is sweeter

Bang e Daraa, Allama Iqbal RA

 
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