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Urdu is not our language: Mahmood Khan Achakzai in PDM's Karachi gathering.

letsrock

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What the hell are you talking about? Is this your final attempt at sounding capable of holding a discourse regarding the evolution of the Indo-Iranian branch of the IE languages? You choose to recommend a book and leave the topic at that? Hell, you didn't even bother to summarize the contents of the book & merely assume that my probable adherence by skimming through a book would be enough of a hamper to deter me from replying to you and consequently give you the pleasure of the last word? Learn to write coherent English, you live in a country where it dominates. Unfortunately for you, the modern Indo-European expansion theory remains the most coherent narrative on the spread of these languages. I know of the theories propagated by German linguists in the past and the world has returned to a variant similar to their version of events for the most part by assigning an urheimat to the Proto-Indo-European tongue. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter if the initial propagators of the theory had racist inclinations because their underlying motives are not grounds for the dismissal of the evidence.

As I said in a previous post, you've two choices, either accept the spread of the Indo-Iranians towards the Sub-Continent or rely on an outward migration theory. You've no choice but to choose one lest you choose to violate cause and effect by stating that languages with similar cognates, grammar and syntax were produced among unrelated populations as a product of chance. You're most likely inclined toward the out-of-India hypothesis, which unfortunately for you does not stand up to linguistic, archaeological, genetic, and even mythological evidence. I have had numerous discussions on this in the past and make no mistake, your aforementioned book can not debunk the insurmountable amount of evidence that has been peer reviewed by an array of experts from all parts of the world through mere accusations of racism. Orientalism is more of an attempt at portraying Eastern cultures as being regressive, & I can easily infer that in the linguistic case, someone like you would assume that the Europeans are attempting to belittle you by concluding that fair skinned foreigners imposed the IE languages on a declining Harappan and Dravidian people. What you conveniently forget is that as per the theory, the Pre-Indo-European populations of Europe were themselves assimilated in to the expansive Indo-European tribes. Case in point; Etruscan and Dorian. In any case, the Indo-Iranian tribes were fair skinned and you might as well get over it. The Tocharians, another group of Indo-European speakers living just north east of Kashmir were fair skinned Caucasoid tribes.



Where did I ask you to replace a native tongue? Don't put words in my mouth. Just because Pakistan needs a binding lingua franca doesn't imply that I desire a ban on Pashto or any other ethnic language. Actually, the number of cognates isn't the only factor deciding whether or not languages are related. English shares a larger lexical base with Latin than German, but it remains a Germanic language. Once again, you aren't fit to discuss this subject, and went so far as to suggest that Sanskrit is a reconstructed language. In real life, most Pakistanis speak Urdu and use it alongside their ethnic tongues as a lingua franca. Unfortunately, East Pakistan's case has a multitude of factors impacting it with language being an important piece of the puzzle. Remember that in our previous posts, we have been discussing Urdu from the contextual framework of contemporary Pakistanis. Bengali, an IE tongue, evolved among a different race on the fringes of the Indo-Aryan speaking world and would never be acceptable to West Pakistan possibly because the implication would have been that a dark skinned people have managed to impose their tongue on a lighter skinned people despite it originating from a similar source.

Besides, any group that adopts your tongue tends to leave traces of their former tongues in it and to purists that may be a concern. Egyptian Arabic for instance has words derived from Coptic. Maldivian Divehi is Indo-Aryan too, but sounds Dravidian or at least it did when I heard it. Urdu in particular is unburdened by those factors given its extensive Iranic, Indic, and Arabic borrowings. Besides, it originated next to our own geographical locality from the Prakrit dialects that stretched all the way to Punjab. If you really wanted to delve in to linguistic purity than even Urdu's loanwords could tarnish its purity in the eyes of nationalists. The only way around that is either removal or acceptance of a compromise. As in my previous post, I mentioned that the Italians had to adopt the Florentine dialect of the Tuscan language as the basis for a unified Italian language. It wasn't the most similar to Latin either, which would have been the Sardinian language, but it was one prestigious enough to be acceptable to most.



Where did I state that Punjabi is a dialect of Urdu? Are you retarded? Before Punjabi and Urdu evolved as separate languages, they existed on a dialectal continuum.



No, I haven't attempted to persuade people in to giving up their languages. You are free to continue to speak in your local dialects and I quoted Article 25[A] of the 18th amendment to that effect and that is something you conveniently ignored. I have no problems with government schools educating in local languages if that is what works best. That is for the masses to decide, but they must mandate the learning of an international lingua franca like English alongside it for obvious reasons. Your analogy of a salesman is flawed because I ain't attempting to shove something unnecessary down your throat. A unifying tongue is critical for any nation and if it isn't Urdu, it would have to be something else. The alternative is to force Pakistani kids to learn a range of provincial languages and no matter how optimistically you presume that to be a potential solution, it won't be something that Pakistan is capable of implementing. As I said, a tongue sharing the same heritage is the best compromise to satiate the egotistical and nationalistic tendencies of the masses. If not that, the only alternative would be to shove Sanskrit down everyone's throats given that that's the closest you get to an Indo-Iranian classic that was spoken by our fore-fathers.



Nothing more self-contradictory than a guy claiming that eerily similar languages could sprout in different regions without sharing a common source, thereby nullifying cause and effect, while concomitantly espousing to be reasonable. Lets demystify this at this instance, a shared language family does not imply shared ancestry. The Indo-Iranian languages are spoken by loads of people unrelated to the original tribes. That however isn't the case for a ton of Pakistanis. What's wrong with having a fondness for Sanskrit? It's among the original tongues of my forefathers. So just because a point allegedly strengthens the views of the speaker in the original clip, as in belonging to the same ethnic group is more often than not indicative of similar ancestry, it becomes incumbent on the rest of us to avoid conceding to it? That's not how intellectual honesty works. Pashtuns are naturally more closely related to each other on a general basis, but nationality or nationhood pertains to a collective consciousness of having experienced a similar past coupled with cultural links strong enough to interweave the destinies of different communities such that they struggle to build a shared future. Pakistan is a multi ethnic society, get over it.



Hilariously, while you are quick to lecture, you are incapable of providing solutions to the dilemma. Lets suppose that Pakistan disbands the concept of a national tongue and no one residing within a province is capable of speaking the language found in another province. The question is, where do we go from there? If the ethnic groups converse in English then that would function as the binding lingua franca and as I implied earlier, I have no qualms with that. I haven't been disrespectful towards any tongue so for the last time, avoid the lecture and do not speak of common sense given your sophistical responses so far. I haven't tied Urdu to religion, take up your complaints to those that have. Islam has only one liturgical language and that is Arabic.
oh wow - you are so full of yourself man. Just tone down will ya ? I referred the book of Urs App mainly on Sanskrit. I made it clear in my post. What you will find is the extremely dubious methods, the rampant fraud in creating entirely fictitious work of sanskrit literature by early Europeans with dubious motives (and they arent just racist some are weird like Voltaire). If you google some chapters are made public you can read.

And why you are bashing me with your theory on languages. It is just a theory. And it doesnt matter. Read it slowly - it.doesnt.matter - maybe a timepass bed time reading and thats about it. Only mentally off people will recommend policy making based on theories of what happened thousands of years ago. Why would you discount actual reality staring at you while burying your head in theories of what supposed to have happened thousands of years back?. Pakistani education teaches people in urdu medium and english medium - are the results of education satisfactory? - no matter which amendment there is no investment in local language schools. World wide scholars (and actual scholars worried about current problems not about stories of thousands of years back) all recommend teaching kids in mother tongue (which are also so called IE languages btw) at a population level - though individually if you have resources you can obtain education in any language.

But i am guessing you wont be bothered by results of it. And remember if bengali isnt acceptable because if the people are a tad too dark for you then why is urdu acceptable to pushtuns who are the lightest skinned in pakistan? Are not urdu native speakers the darkest in pakistan ?

In your previous posts you only referred to language group now you argue about not being too dark and god knows what - maybe the angle of nose next ?

Your theories and thoughts are a huge mess. I guess you want to bring some sort of unity in pakistan but having a noble motive is not a license for spouting nonsense. There are some good reasons in favor of Urdu but the ones you supply are the most horrible really.

you got to introspect a little at the direction you are taking if it is making you warm up to Sanskrit but spitting venom on pakistani like Ashakzai no matter how disagreeable he maybe.

There are several multi language countries like Switzerland, Canada managing their affairs. The current path is not sustainable.
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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To be honest i wish Quaid-e-Azam had selected another language as the national language. I would have been happier with any language even if he had selected Klingon as long as we didn't share a language with Indians.
The only other language would be Farsi, brother, the Afghan variety.

If Bengal had not joined us in the beginning, it may have been a possibility.

We can always add Farsi as a second National language, actually it is long overdue.
How about making English the national language?

English is a neutral and universal language, which has borrowed words from all over the world.

If English were introduced as a national language in my country, I wouldn’t feel salty or get offended by it and would in fact welcome it. But if Urdu, Mandarin (Chinese), German or any other language we’re introduced as a national language, I would take issues with that and would oppose vehemently.

I see nothing wrong with what Achakzai said, Urdu is not his mother tongue, and it’s limited to a that specific region, a language like English is universal and I doubt he would complain about that.

What are your thoughts on this @Indus Pakistan @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @HRK Would you be fine with a language like English taking the place of national language as people would certainly take offence if a language like Farsi were to be reinstated in the region or any provincial languages, do you think that would be a solution to Achakzai’s concern? English as national language and provincial languages taught by each province?
English is already spoken by most of upper class and middle class Pakistan. The problem is our over-reliance on English.

Pakistani Urdu is a good language because it is related to all the languages of Pakistan and most people can speak it fluently. Also there is a poetic and literary history in Urdu which is greater and more important for our culture than anything found in English.

A third national language should be Farsi, it is the need of the hour, and would bring us closer to Afghans, Tajiks, Eastern Iranians, and CARs.
 
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Itachi

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To be honest i wish Quaid-e-Azam had selected another language as the national language. I would have been happier with any language even if he had selected Klingon as long as we didn't share a language with Indians.
Nah, the people will always complain. Combine that with an inferiority complex that needs to be removed, not nurtured. And you have the current Pakistan.
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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Arabic is the liturgical language of Islam and all of you are free to acquire it, speak it, propagate it. Whatever you do as an individual does not concern me, but Arabic belongs to the Semitic language family, which is unrelated to the languages of our forefathers. That isn't meant to belittle Arabic whatsoever considering that it has an epic history of its own and was once the language of science and technology. Besides, it is our liturgical language and that applies to all Muslims.
We Pakistanis should be collectively versed in Arabic too. It will make us Islamically literate and decrease the influence of mullahs. It is a win, win.

As someone who has learned Arabic, I can tell you that it is not too difficult either, esp coming from Urdu.
My opinion may not be popular here but i am not great fan of urdu and ever worse association urdu with Islam or even muslim culture. While pakistan adoption of urdu is not as unfair as indian imposition of hindi. Its usage must still be restricted only for co-ordination purposes.

Its very important people are taught in their native tongues and this obsession with urdu is killing languages such as punjabi/sindhi. A language is an intellectual heritage and what even the Brits could not kill the so called self governments are killing them.

Anyway Urdu is fairly an ornamental language with no real science/medicine./engineering content in it. Keep it ornamental and focus on real languages spoken by people.
Brother, you are conflating Indian politics and language disputes with Pakistan. The two are totally different societies.

We do not have a negative perception of Urdu, as Indians have with Hindi (a heavily edited form of Urdu.)

Pashtu is my native language. Urdu is my national language and i don't have any problem with that. Achakzai is failed politician aur yahe baat ker ke apni ahmiyat barhana chahte hein. Other wise they are irrelevant to Pakistani politics.
Good on you wrora.

I feel the same about Punjabi and Urdu.
 
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maithil

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Language based agitation is so 20th century. Its very much possible for people in rural areas to be more comfortable in local languages than Urdu.
 

Cherub786

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Honestly, the KPK government's decision to preserve Pakhto as a provincial language and make it a medium of instruction is beyond ridiculous. Pakhto is barely a developed language, barely has any literature. And this policy is only appeasing ethnic nationalists, there's nothing functional about it.
I was born and raised in Canada, but I can speak better Urdu than uneducated Pathans that have lived in Pakistan all their life (educated Pathans speak Urdu well and I respect them). It's pathetic.
The only alternative to Urdu is English. Some people say that in order to truly unite the Muslim world Pakistan's national language should be Arabic. But that is totally impractical. Arabic belongs to a different language family, it's not an Indo-European language. Those countries that were Arabized like Egypt, Syria, and North Africa was because they already spoke a Semitic or Afro-Asiatic language so it was easier for them to transition to Arabic. But Iran never transitioned to Arabic, nor did the Turks, nor did Indian Muslims because our language isn't Afro-Asiatic.
English was a logical choice for a national language, but it's too late to reverse the policy now. We have to stick with Urdu as Pakistan's national language, every single Pakistani needs to be fluent in Urdu, there's no excuse for those rural Pathans and Afghan refugees to continue to speak in broken, heavily accented Urdu. They need to be taught Urdu properly it's KPK's government's responsibility.
 

Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

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Honestly, the KPK government's decision to preserve Pakhto as a provincial language and make it a medium of instruction is beyond ridiculous. Pakhto is barely a developed language, barely has any literature. And this policy is only appeasing ethnic nationalists, there's nothing functional about it.
I was born and raised in Canada, but I can speak better Urdu than uneducated Pathans that have lived in Pakistan all their life (educated Pathans speak Urdu well and I respect them). It's pathetic.
The only alternative to Urdu is English. Some people say that in order to truly unite the Muslim world Pakistan's national language should be Arabic. But that is totally impractical. Arabic belongs to a different language family, it's not an Indo-European language. Those countries that were Arabized like Egypt, Syria, and North Africa was because they already spoke a Semitic or Afro-Asiatic language so it was easier for them to transition to Arabic. But Iran never transitioned to Arabic, nor did the Turks, nor did Indian Muslims because our language isn't Afro-Asiatic.
English was a logical choice for a national language, but it's too late to reverse the policy now. We have to stick with Urdu as Pakistan's national language, every single Pakistani needs to be fluent in Urdu, there's no excuse for those rural Pathans and Afghan refugees to continue to speak in broken, heavily accented Urdu. They need to be taught Urdu properly it's KPK's government's responsibility.
I agree on the basic point but the delivery is not the nicest.

Instead of Pathan, prefer to use Pukhtoon. It is more correct.

Other than that, Fus7a Arabic should only be learned for Quran and Ahadith, but all Pakistanis should be able to speak it at basic level.

English should be downgraded. It will also stop the brain drain Pakistan is experiencing.
 

Cherub786

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I agree on the basic point but the delivery is not the nicest.

Instead of Pathan, prefer to use Pukhtoon. It is more correct.

Other than that, Fus7a Arabic should only be learned for Quran and Ahadith, but all Pakistanis should be able to speak it at basic level.

English should be downgraded. It will also stop the brain drain Pakistan is experiencing.
Pathan, Pakhtun, Pashtun it's all the same.
As for English, I disagree with you strongly. Pakistan's brain drain is caused by internal culture of corruption and lack of civil liberties that makes the West so attractive. If Pakistan had a new constitution like America's with a Bill of Rights that guarantees fundamental civil liberties, and also a new judicial system and a new legal system that isn't based on the antiquated British model, many highly educated Pakistanis would choose to remain in Pakistan, in fact many expats would return.
 

p(-)0ENiX

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oh wow - you are so full of yourself man. Just tone down will ya ? I referred the book of Urs App mainly on Sanskrit. I made it clear in my post. What you will find is the extremely dubious methods, the rampant fraud in creating entirely fictitious work of sanskrit literature by early Europeans with dubious motives (and they arent just racist some are weird like Voltaire). If you google some chapters are made public you can read.
What rampant fraud are you referring to? I don't think you realize that Kashmir was once a centre for Sanskrit learning and Sanskrit never went absolutely extinct, it simply dimmed in importance because vernacular tongues have more relevance in ordinary peoples' lives. Sanskrit works were even translated in to Arabic by during the Islamic Golden Age and had our modern understanding of Sanskrit been incorrect, we wouldn't be able to reverse translate the Arabic text for instance in to Sanskrit. Hence, you and your precious book's assumption that you most probably understood incorrectly would be wrong, when implying that Sanskrit has been reconstructed. Sanskrit words exist in modern Indo-Aryan tongues for cross reference and had our translations been incorrect, we would have failed to translate clauses word for word in manner that retains grammatic and syntactic sense coupled with a meaningful and coherent interpretation of surviving literature. There are plenty of original Sanskrit works and your assertion is invalid. What you may have implied is that the grammataic and syntactic similarities between IE tongues were dubious, but that does not hold true as per the modern day scrutiny of hundreds of linguists, whose publications are peer reviewed. As a general rule, motives and racist tendencies have nothing to do with the validity of evidence, which is subject to evaluation through a host of complementary fields like archaeogenetics, archaeology, etc.

And why you are bashing me with your theory on languages. It is just a theory. And it doesnt matter. Read it slowly - it.doesnt.matter - maybe a timepass bed time reading and thats about it. Only mentally off people will recommend policy making based on theories of what happened thousands of years ago. Why would you discount actual reality staring at you while burying your head in theories of what supposed to have happened thousands of years back?. Pakistani education teaches people in urdu medium and english medium - are the results of education satisfactory? - no matter which amendment there is no investment in local language schools. World wide scholars (and actual scholars worried about current problems not about stories of thousands of years back) all recommend teaching kids in mother tongue (which are also so called IE languages btw) at a population level - though individually if you have resources you can obtain education in any language. But i am guessing you wont be bothered by results of it.
Do you even understand what a theory is? It's backed by decades of research in the field of linguistics, archaeology, history, etc. You must be too mentally retarded to realize that the imposition of Urdu and the tilt some people have towards languages like Persian are based on the developments occurring hundreds of years back. Think about that for a second before spewing fallacious arguments. I haven't discounted anything, and you need to stop with your rude presumptions. Didn't I mention the constitutional amendment earlier or does that need to be reiterated? Why on earth do you keep presuming that I am against you speaking in your local tongue or educating yourself in those, when it was only in my previous post that I indicated that that is for the masses to decide? There are plenty of other factors besides language that make the results unsatisfactory, and you had been aware of ground realities, you wouldn't have highlighted language as the sole cause. The piss poor state of school infrastructure, ignorance among the masses about the benefits of education, the lack of social and monetary stability, the bias against educating females, et cetera play a role here. Furthermore, teachers remain uninterested in relocating to harsh rural areas away from the comfort of their urban hometowns. Very few qualified teachers are attracted to the incentives offered by teaching to the rural masses, and when, that's coupled with the high degree of job security originating as a result of these parameters, you will find that even good teachers end up becoming lackadaisical about their jobs and societal obligations. We haven't even factored in the availability of teachers capable of teaching in ethnic languages or the exorbitant resources the state would have to invest in preparing the necessary educational resources.

And remember if bengali isnt acceptable because if the people are a tad too dark for you then why is urdu acceptable to pushtuns who are the lightest skinned in pakistan? Are not urdu native speakers the darkest in pakistan ?
Urdu evolves from the same Prakrits that Punjabi did. There is a reason why to a certain extent, basic lexicons remains mutually intelligible in both tongues. Urdu speakers speak Urdu as a unifying language and they originate from a variety of communities, but are lumped under an umbrella for simplicity. Prior to this, they had ethnic languages of their own. Basic historical knowledge would have restrained you from that comment.

By the way, I knew that a loser like yourself would misquote me by inferring that I hate Bengalis for their skin color and despise their language. All I did was hypothesize over the mindset of the people back then. Anyone of you may refer back to my text and read the exact words and the original context. The fact is that Bengali is an IE tongue, but given its peripheral nature, it is bound to possess certain unique attributes inherited from its adopters. Refer back to the examples of Egyptian Arabic or Divehi that I spoke of earlier. Humans identify with nations on a multitude of factors, one of which is their appearance. I, just like the rest of the world, am inclined to feel greater affinity for my own.

That does not imply that I would never learn the language associated with a darker skinned people. Barring yourself from any form of knowledge is a foolish act because all of it ultimately stems from the Creator. However, given all that, IE Bengali is associated strongly with an ethnic group different from my own and I, just like my compatriots, prefer a variety more similar to our forefathers if given the choice to pick and choose between IE tongues. Besides, I am proud that my forefathers are among the original Indo Iranian speakers and Urdu inculcates many aspects of the old Indo-Iranian tongues relatively well. In any case, as some have suggested, Persian is a superb alternative in its own right, but it has its own compromises. Remember the theme from my previous posts? Compromise is key here, a binding lingua franca is needed and the masses may not necessarily find IE tongues like Polish relevant to their contextual framework, & that is despite the fact that Poles are white.

In your previous posts you only referred to language group now you argue about not being too dark and god knows what - maybe the angle of nose next ?
Shut the hell up, will you? Your argument constitutes a red herring. You are incapable of holding on to a rational conversation and I would rather you get lost than falsely associate me with a libellous mindset. When I opine that the minimum criteria, which I feel is important for my country's national language to adhere to as being an IE one does not necessarily dictate that I am ready to accept just about any of them. Despite that, the fact remains that at this moment, I would rather consider an IE tongue as my native. This does not imply that I am ignorant of human assimilation and the fact that men across the ages have been forced to adapt and adopt to different languages or cultures or that they may have evolved to be associated with a new moniker. I am pragmatic enough to see that and pragmatism coupled with labour is quintessential to human survival and progress.

Your theories and thoughts are a huge mess. I guess you want to bring some sort of unity in pakistan but having a noble motive is not a license for spouting nonsense. There are some good reasons in favor of Urdu but the ones you supply are the most horrible really.

you got to introspect a little at the direction you are taking if it is making you warm up to Sanskrit but spitting venom on pakistani like Ashakzai no matter how disagreeable he maybe.
Says the dimwit, who believes that languages like Sanskrit, Latin, Ancient Greek, et cetera have nothing in common. You're the only one spouting nonsense here buddy. I won't forget that Sanskrit was foolishly called a reconstructed language by you through blatant ignorance of the fact that it was once spoken by humans and learnt as a prestigious intellectual tongue. Incidentally, you've failed to come up with an alternative to Urdu that the masses may find acceptable. As for me, I reiterate that I had a different upbringing from my compatriots in Pakistan. Regardless, they are free to do as they please and reformations to Pakistan's educational curriculum are already underway.

There are several multi language countries like Switzerland, Canada managing their affairs. The current path is not sustainable.
At the moment, given the issues I outlined in the aforementioned paragraphs, it cannot be ascertained whether or not a multilinguistic model happens to be the perfect solution. That is up for debate and should be left to the people and those better qualified to conclude the hypothesis.
 

peagle

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Pathan, Pakhtun, Pashtun it's all the same.
As for English, I disagree with you strongly. Pakistan's brain drain is caused by internal culture of corruption and lack of civil liberties that makes the West so attractive. If Pakistan had a new constitution like America's with a Bill of Rights that guarantees fundamental civil liberties, and also a new judicial system and a new legal system that isn't based on the antiquated British model, many highly educated Pakistanis would choose to remain in Pakistan, in fact many expats would return.
Brother, I like your views, and there is a big part of me that feels the love every time I come across Patriots like yourself, I wish Allah gives you all that you desire, Ameen.

But, please read our constitution, it is a beautiful document and there are plenty of rights for everyone, including the minorities. Some things I wish were different, but this world or Pakistan's constitution was not made for me or anyone other individual. It is about striking a balance, and I think we have done it reasonably well. I am sure more changes will come with time, but in essence it is a good document. We have been very poor at educating our citizens about the constitution.

I purchased a copy n the 1990s, but since then there have been a lot of changes, but I know enough to realise those changes have been mostly for the good.
 

p(-)0ENiX

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We Pakistanis should be collectively versed in Arabic too. It will make us Islamically literate and decrease the influence of mullahs. It is a win, win.

As someone who has learned Arabic, I can tell you that it is not too difficult either, esp coming from Urdu.
Absolutely, Pakistanis would do well to pay more credence to Arabic. It is the liturgical language of Islam and its acquisition might substantially reduce the minor quibbles they have over Islamic doctrine. Besides, it would aid their mobility when travelling to the Islamic sacred sites and cause them to feel more involved in the rituals of Islam.

No language is atrociously difficult bro, it's just the dedication of learners as well as their access to resources that stymies their acquisition process.

To be honest, in some cases, archaic IE tongues like Latin are probably going to be more difficult to acquire for native IE speakers than members of foreign modern language families. Imagine a highly inflected language with 3 genders, 6 noun cases, 6 tenses, 4 verb conjugations, 3 moods, 2 voices, and 2 numbers coupled with some other features in a singular tongue. :lol:
 

CodeforFood

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well, no..if you start going historical then you can argue a lot of these languages aren't local..

fact is urdu is local language in Pakistan, million just speak urdu nothing else. What are you going to tell these millions of pakistanis..?

you have millions of pakistani who migrated with urdu what are you going to tell them?
What I have seen from his post. here is the reply I would approximate. Send them back to Uttar Pardesh, this is the land of Sindhi, Punjabi, Balochi and pakhtoon. He is a prime example of how bigots and racists polarize.
he is free to move to Afghanistan, there he can speak whatever BS they speak there ..
Can some one please also run a separate river Indus on totally separate basin for the likes of "Indus Pakistan" types so that we don't have deal with these type of people anymore...
 
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letsrock

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What rampant fraud are you referring to? I don't think you realize that Kashmir was once a centre for Sanskrit learning and Sanskrit never went absolutely extinct, it simply dimmed in importance because vernacular tongues have more relevance in ordinary peoples' lives. Sanskrit works were even translated in to Arabic by during the Islamic Golden Age and had our modern understanding of Sanskrit been incorrect, we wouldn't be able to reverse translate the Arabic text for instance in to Sanskrit. Hence, you and your precious book's assumption that you most probably understood incorrectly would be wrong, when implying that Sanskrit has been reconstructed. Sanskrit words exist in modern Indo-Aryan tongues for cross reference and had our translations been incorrect, we would have failed to translate clauses word for word in manner that retains grammatic and syntactic sense coupled with a meaningful and coherent interpretation of surviving literature. There are plenty of original Sanskrit works and your assertion is invalid. What you may have implied is that the grammataic and syntactic similarities between IE tongues were dubious, but that does not hold true as per the modern day scrutiny of hundreds of linguists, whose publications are peer reviewed. As a general rule, motives and racist tendencies have nothing to do with the validity of evidence, which is subject to evaluation through a host of complementary fields like archaeogenetics, archaeology, etc.



Do you even understand what a theory is? It's backed by decades of research in the field of linguistics, archaeology, history, etc. You must be too mentally retarded to realize that the imposition of Urdu and the tilt some people have towards languages like Persian are based on the developments occurring hundreds of years back. Think about that for a second before spewing fallacious arguments. I haven't discounted anything, and you need to stop with your rude presumptions. Didn't I mention the constitutional amendment earlier or does that need to be reiterated? Why on earth do you keep presuming that I am against you speaking in your local tongue or educating yourself in those, when it was only in my previous post that I indicated that that is for the masses to decide? There are plenty of other factors besides language that make the results unsatisfactory, and you had been aware of ground realities, you wouldn't have highlighted language as the sole cause. The piss poor state of school infrastructure, ignorance among the masses about the benefits of education, the lack of social and monetary stability, the bias against educating females, et cetera play a role here. Furthermore, teachers remain uninterested in relocating to harsh rural areas away from the comfort of their urban hometowns. Very few qualified teachers are attracted to the incentives offered by teaching to the rural masses, and when, that's coupled with the high degree of job security originating as a result of these parameters, you will find that even good teachers end up becoming lackadaisical about their jobs and societal obligations. We haven't even factored in the availability of teachers capable of teaching in ethnic languages or the exorbitant resources the state would have to invest in preparing the necessary educational resources.



Urdu evolves from the same Prakrits that Punjabi did. There is a reason why to a certain extent, basic lexicons remains mutually intelligible in both tongues. Urdu speakers speak Urdu as a unifying language and they originate from a variety of communities, but are lumped under an umbrella for simplicity. Prior to this, they had ethnic languages of their own. Basic historical knowledge would have restrained you from that comment.

By the way, I knew that a loser like yourself would misquote me by inferring that I hate Bengalis for their skin color and despise their language. All I did was hypothesize over the mindset of the people back then. Anyone of you may refer back to my text and read the exact words and the original context. The fact is that Bengali is an IE tongue, but given its peripheral nature, it is bound to possess certain unique attributes inherited from its adopters. Refer back to the examples of Egyptian Arabic or Divehi that I spoke of earlier. Humans identify with nations on a multitude of factors, one of which is their appearance. I, just like the rest of the world, am inclined to feel greater affinity for my own.

That does not imply that I would never learn the language associated with a darker skinned people. Barring yourself from any form of knowledge is a foolish act because all of it ultimately stems from the Creator. However, given all that, IE Bengali is associated strongly with an ethnic group different from my own and I, just like my compatriots, prefer a variety more similar to our forefathers if given the choice to pick and choose between IE tongues. Besides, I am proud that my forefathers are among the original Indo Iranian speakers and Urdu inculcates many aspects of the old Indo-Iranian tongues relatively well. In any case, as some have suggested, Persian is a superb alternative in its own right, but it has its own compromises. Remember the theme from my previous posts? Compromise is key here, a binding lingua franca is needed and the masses may not necessarily find IE tongues like Polish relevant to their contextual framework, & that is despite the fact that Poles are white.



Shut the hell up, will you? Your argument constitutes a red herring. You are incapable of holding on to a rational conversation and I would rather you get lost than falsely associate me with a libellous mindset. When I opine that the minimum criteria, which I feel is important for my country's national language to adhere to as being an IE one does not necessarily dictate that I am ready to accept just about any of them. Despite that, the fact remains that at this moment, I would rather consider an IE tongue as my native. This does not imply that I am ignorant of human assimilation and the fact that men across the ages have been forced to adapt and adopt to different languages or cultures or that they may have evolved to be associated with a new moniker. I am pragmatic enough to see that and pragmatism coupled with labour is quintessential to human survival and progress.



Says the dimwit, who believes that languages like Sanskrit, Latin, Ancient Greek, et cetera have nothing in common. You're the only one spouting nonsense here buddy. I won't forget that Sanskrit was foolishly called a reconstructed language by you through blatant ignorance of the fact that it was once spoken by humans and learnt as a prestigious intellectual tongue. Incidentally, you've failed to come up with an alternative to Urdu that the masses may find acceptable. As for me, I reiterate that I had a different upbringing from my compatriots in Pakistan. Regardless, they are free to do as they please and reformations to Pakistan's educational curriculum are already underway.



At the moment, given the issues I outlined in the aforementioned paragraphs, it cannot be ascertained whether or not a multilinguistic model happens to be the perfect solution. That is up for debate and should be left to the people and those better qualified to conclude the hypothesis.
What a disgusting uncouth fellow to have a discussion. Your theories will never have any impact on actual world. And yes you are a racist too. On top of it a sanskrit lover (which is full of racist literature of castes for idol worshippers but a PRESTIGIOUS language to you) because you are an ancestor worshipping bigot( Except that you dont have any direct memory of your sanskrit speaking ancestors nor are you carrying any of their cultural legacy but, comically, is a speculative claim based on a theory of languages. )

That pushtoon gentlemen is on far far solid ground than you ever will be with your theories. He knows his language and takes pride in his actual tongue and real heritage.

Dont you dare walk back on your racism. Let me quote what you said :
" Bengali, an IE tongue, evolved among a different race on the fringes of the Indo-Aryan speaking world and would never be acceptable to West Pakistan possibly because the implication would have been that a dark skinned people have managed to impose their tongue on a lighter skinned people despite it originating from a similar source. "
And you blame your words on "mindset" of millions of pakistanis. What twisted sophistry LOL.

And no - no sanskrit work has been directly translated to Arabic. It is a shitty language(PRESTIGIOUS to you) full of idol worshipping and racist praises of caste system. No surprises it has such direct appeal to your heart.

You start with a fools errand of "picking" a language based on 2000 year old theory and then make an even bigger fool of yourself by layering in fairskin/darkskin and twisted sophistry tying yourself in to knots. Even Zionists have better arguments than you, laying claim on Palestine based on their so called 2000 year history.

I had enough of you and your unpleasantness.
 

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