• Friday, May 24, 2019

Update to my previous thread: The AMRAAM Missile Detail

Discussion in 'Strategic & Foreign Affairs' started by Alternatiiv, Mar 1, 2019.

  1. Alternatiiv

    Alternatiiv FULL MEMBER

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    Sorry for late post, my light had went out and I decided to go to sleep... a long sleep. This is an update to my previous post in which I exposed the whole 'box number' scenario, and proved that the accused F-16 on the database is still active with the Royal Jordanian Air Force in Squadron No. 1! If anyone is interested in reading that thread, it got lost somewhere in all the other threads, here is the link.
    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/debunking-the-paf-f-16-down-myth-5th-generation-warfare.604715/

    Again, I encourage Indians to debate and put out arguments on this, it is an open invitation. We all wish to know the truth, and nothing but the truth. It isn't us who are changing the goal posts over 10 times each day, it is India.

    THE CONFLICTING DOCUMENTS
    The latest attempt at evidence by them was a piece of the AMRAAM missile. It had a contract number on it as well. Upon searching for the contract number, there are two main conflicting reports.

    1. A short description, from the Department of Defense of United States, reported and updated in 2006, which says the contract was awarded to Pakistan.
    2. A report presented to the Congress (not to be confused with the party in India; Congress in United States is a governmental body consisting of the Senate and House of Representatives) in the United States, in 2010. According to the report, it was presented to a country named 'Tiawan', now we know... that it is an obvious typo. There is no country called 'Tiawan', it is so obvious that it was meant to refer to Taiwan.

    Now, the relevant link for the Indian narrative is this.
    http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=3384

    Now, the link to our narrative, which also shoots down the typo complain by Indians.
    https://www.hsdl.org/?abstract&did=713544

    In this link, next to the big title of 'Report...', you can see a link to '[open PDF - 444 KB]', click on it. Now, in the opened PDF, go to the very bottom. You will notice the following at the 3rd position from the top.

    RAYTHEON COMPANY
    AZ
    FA867505C0070
    $2,380,000.00
    Tiawan
    AMRAAM AIR VEHICLE, FMS, AIM-120C5

    To prove this is a typo, and does not interfere with the accuracy of the document, you can refer to immediately below, other sales to Taiwan, the country name is 'Taiwan', clearly a typo in the initial two sales references.

    Now go to the very top. This very document was presented to the Congress by DoD, Department of Defense of United States in 2010 and reported on these sales of the Fiscal Year 2009. Note that it is a scanned document. The digital document presented by DoD below was presented in this very form to the Congress on July 26, 2010.

    We can also verify the website that we used to obtain this report.
    https://www.hsdl.org/c/about/

    I don't think I need to make any addition to this, all details regarding sources, sponsorship, affiliation, are mentioned on the link in detail. There is no mark left about accuracy and validity of details after that.

    Now coming to the confliction of reports. As already pointed out by one of the Staff, the nature of the contracts change due to politics and other factors variably. The contract could've been at one point been assigned to Pakistan (in 2006), and then later on awarded, rather, to Taiwan (in 2009) due to politics, global and military factors. This happens a bit often.

    I already showed to you that both the sources are ultimately from Department of Defense of United States (DoD), only the latter one (sold to Taiwan) being from 2009, while the former (assigned to Pakistan) being in 2006. Clearly, this shows that a contract initially assigned to Pakistan was then awarded to Taiwan.

    Now, lastly...

    FOR THE SAKE OF IT...
    Lets just for a moment, for the sake of the Indian narrative and the Indians who refuse to accept the above report also by DoD just because of a typo, lets simply assume the Indian Narrative to be true. That the missile belongs to Pakistan.

    It still doesn't show that Pakistan lost an F16, it simply shows that Pakistan rather fired an AMRAAM missile from an F-16. But, according to that, it means that the ISPR is then lying, F-16 did take part... or did it?

    The JF-17 Thunder is actually capable of engaging with AMRAAM missiles. Yes, you heard that right. Below I have attached a picture (called Specifications, its a camera taken picture at their plaza, so you cannot argue that it is forged) showing it clearly, thanks to China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, that the JF-17 Thunder has the feature of BVR (also shown to the left under Features title), and can engage with AMRAAM missiles as circled under Armament.

    So, now we know that JF-17 Thunder is capable of using the AMRAAM missile. We also know that ISPR said no F-16 took part in the op. We also know thanks to Indian Media that there is an AMRAAM missile piece in their territory... so for India to claim that this missile was fired from Pakistan, is for them to accept that it hit some aerial target (AMRAAM is an AAM, meaning to Air-to-Air missile, AAM's cannot engage ground targets) and was fired from the JF-17 Thunder, and remember that these are BVR-capable missiles with ranges above 100+ km.

    So, I will leave the rest for you all to speculate. You can clearly see from above documents linked, thanks to many forum members here, that is proven that the missile was sold to Taiwan, however, if Indians insist that the 2010 report is entirely false, then let it be known that it does not prove that a PAF F-16 was shot down, and it doesn't prove either that a PAF F-16 took part in it all because the JF-17 thunder is capable of firing these as shown above.

    So, all-in-all, either the missile was sold to Taiwan as per 2010 document, or was indeed Pakistan's according to 2006 document, and in the latter case, it was fired from a JF-17 Thunder and likely landed a hit on an aerial target within India.

    That's my analysis. Thanks for reading.
    @waz @Dubious @Areesh @Starlord @Psychic @Pakistani Aircraft @Foxtrot Delta @ranadd

    Pakistan Zindabad!
     

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  2. Foxtrot Delta

    Foxtrot Delta SENIOR MEMBER

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    Thats probably why China just showed JF 17 thunder aa scoring its first air to air kill against a manned aircraft.

    It aired on CCTV china.

    I along with indian people would be very very surprised if this is true that JF 17 can fire AMRAAM aka Aim 120C.

    Thank you for tagging me.

    EDIT:

    But i honestly think when chinese write AMRAAM they dont mean AIM 120 series.

    For chinese AMRAAM is a class of weapon in which SD-10 or PL-12 is classified. I think more learned people can elaborate. I have no idea.

    AMRAAM= Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile

    But i do think AMRAAM for JF 17 is SD-10 not AIM 120C

    Becos jf 17 uses pakistan's indegenous datalink 17. Which uses chinese systems and settalites instead of american gps or settalites used by rest of the world air forces.

    Because of this i don't think JF 17's Data link is compatible with american data link. Unless americans exclusively allowed it. But that won't be aaceptible to chinese i think cuz then americans can spy or control it.
     
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  3. ziaulislam

    ziaulislam ELITE MEMBER

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    Or that Pakistan fired in some other encounter ...i will surprised that in such heighten tension either side didnt fire any BVR at long distance fire...

    Pretty sure quite some of aim120s and sd10 have been fired
     
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  4. Alternatiiv

    Alternatiiv FULL MEMBER

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    Possibly. Just pertinent to mention here though that AMRAAM stands for "AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile", literally. So in benefit of doubt, we would assume that is what they are referring to AMRAAM when it is mentioned unless any other reliable source can confirm other wise.

    As to how a JF-17 Thunder can use an AMRAAM, I cannot comment because I don't know in detail how and what BVR missiles require to be operated.
     
  5. ziaulislam

    ziaulislam ELITE MEMBER

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    Or indeed f16 took part and ispr lying
     
  6. Alternatiiv

    Alternatiiv FULL MEMBER

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    Absolutely possible.
     
  7. Rashid Mahmood

    Rashid Mahmood MILITARY PROFESSIONAL

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    7-yiG_4E.jpg
     
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  8. Ghessan

    Ghessan FULL MEMBER

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    https://tribune.com.pk/story/1920385/1-fact-checking-missile-shown-indian-generals-sold-taiwan/

    THE EXPRESS TRIBUNE
    > PAKISTAN

    Fact Check: Missile shown by Indian generals appears to be one sold to Taiwan
    SHARE TWEET
    Fact Check: Missile shown by Indian generals appears to be one sold to Taiwan
    By Zeeshan Ahmad
    Published: February 28, 2019
    2545SHARES
    SHARE TWEET EMAIL
    [​IMG]
    Part of a missile India claims was launched a PAF F-16. SCEREN GRAB

    KARACHI: As New Delhi presented what it claimed was ‘incontrovertible proof’ that Pakistan used its F-16 fighter jets in Wednesday’s air action, a fact-checking exercise by The Express Tribune revealed that the missile remains the Indian military found could belong to a missile sold by the US to Taiwan.

    India’s top military brass on Thursday displayed the remains of an American-made missile as ‘absolute proof’ that the Pakistan Air Force used F-16s in aerial operations conducted the day before. Claiming that the missile could only have been launched by an F-16, the Indian generals tried to strengthen their claims that the Indian Air Force also shot down a PAF F-16 while losing a MiG-21.

    Imran Khan wins praise over captured pilot’s release




    The wreckage displayed by the Indian generals identified the missile as an AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM. Markings on the wreckage also identified the contract serial number of the missile as FA8675-05-C-0070.

    [​IMG]

    A Google search The Express Tribune ran using the keyword ‘AMRAAM’ along with the serial number in question returned links to a US Department of Defense (DoD) document titled “Report to Congress on Department Of Defense Sales of Significant Military Equipment to Foreign Entities Fiscal Year 2009”.

    [​IMG]

    The report revealed that contract number FA867505C0070 corresponded to a batch of AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles supplied to Taiwan in a Foreign Military Sale worth $2.38 million.

    It should be noted that Pakistan does not recognise Taiwan as a separate entity from the People’s Republic of China and as such, does not have any diplomatic or consular relations with Taiwan.

    How the wreckage of a missile sold to Taiwan ended up in the hands of an Indian military air vice marshal is something only New Delhi can explain.

    A version of the report can be found on the official website of the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment. It can be accessed via the following link:

    https://www.acq.osd.mil/dpap/cpic/cp/docs/USA002235-10_Complete Foreign Military Sales.pdf
     
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  9. Yaseen1

    Yaseen1 SENIOR MEMBER

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    better to ignore indian losers
     
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  10. Death Professor

    Death Professor FULL MEMBER

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    true they don't have any concrete or irrefutable proof like we showed regarding downed aircraft.

    the issue is not just this single document. But the one from FY11, where it is mentioned that US sold RQ-4 Global hawk S-N FA862010C3002 to Pakistan (mentioned on page Airforce 1[33]). And I don't think we ever acquired global hawk. Meaning these reports by DoD have errors in it. Unless some one here can claim that we really bought a global hawk.
     
  11. lithiumhydride

    lithiumhydride FULL MEMBER

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    http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=3384
    This source says FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028 was sold to Pakistan, and other buyers have different sub-contract numbers, such as /P00016 for Czech Republic, Hungary, Jordan, Malaysia, and Canada (source:http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=3193)

    India does not have a SOLID evidence of Pakistan using AIM-120-C5 in this conflict.
    We have 2 questions on Chinese forums:
    1. Other buyers' AMRAAM are less likely to find its way into India. Only Pakistan's AMRAAM has a chance to be fired into and found in India
    2. We have no idea whether that piece of debris was real or counterfeit.
     
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  12. PurpleButcher

    PurpleButcher FULL MEMBER

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    Few questions in my mind

    a) How can a typo mistake be carried out by US DoD? Kinda strange but since its on their official website so one has to believe!

    b) This also on the DoD website http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Contract.aspx?ContractID=3384 , if you search 17th Nov. 2006's contract, on second paragraph of AirForce part you will find the mention of the same serial number as shown by Indians and as mentioned by you regarding sales to Taiwan. This ambiguity is very critical which should be cleared by US DoD whether this serial number was sold to Pakistan or Taiwan.

    c) Hypothetical question-> The f-16s were sold to us not for 23rd march air show, they are war machines. Can Pakistan not openly ever acknowledge the use of F-16s against IAF due to geo political reasons?
     
  13. Alternatiiv

    Alternatiiv FULL MEMBER

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    It is possible that the contract assigned to Pakistan was later awarded to another country, or possibly even cancelled. The report is accurate because the website is affiliated, and the same report can be found on many other database websites.

    Check this Government link.
    https://www.fpds.gov/ezsearch/fpdsp...ortBy=TREASURY_ACCOUNT_SYMBOL&desc=Y&start=90

    Go down to the 14th 'box', you will find the contract and the contract number. Same details as those presenting to the congress, except that it says the Date Signed was April 24, 2013. So rewarded elsewhere.

    a) According to law, DoD presents the reports of sales to congress yearly. They have to type it out, it is possible that a typo can occur. You can find same documents many years ago all over the net.

    b) The same serial number is also there on the report presented to congress in 2010 by DoD. I am not disputing the fact that the information on the DoD website is false. I am saying it is outdated. The contract assigned for Pakistan in 2006 was likely cancelled and awarded to someone else (in this case Taiwan) in 2009.
     
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  14. Ghessan

    Ghessan FULL MEMBER

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    to me this part say something: (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028) one has to search this on Taiwan lot.
     
  15. lithiumhydride

    lithiumhydride FULL MEMBER

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    Your own lovely JF-17 is now using Chinese radar per PAF's choice. But originally there was a proposal to use Italian radar in case PAF unsatisfied with Chinese radar's performance. In the Italian radar configuration, integration of AMRAAM was considered and marketed. Now, PAC/CAC are marketing JF-17 for exportation, and the buyer may prefer western radar and missiles, so PAC/CAC also advertise that option too
     
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