• Thursday, June 21, 2018

UAE & Saudi Arabia Want To Get Submarines

Discussion in 'Arab Defence Forum' started by The SC, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,408
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Ratings:
    +16 / 14,546 / -0
    Country:
    Canada
    Location:
    Canada
    ABU DHABI: There is a growing market for submarines in the Middle East, with the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia both having expressed their intention to purchase them, assuming a threat perception in the region.

    According to Achille Fulfaro, Middle East naval executive for Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri and general manager of Etihad Ship Building, these deals could come through “in the near future,” and the two military powers of the have expressed interest in the acquisition of small to medium submarines.

    The submarine threat was deemed to be high, so a deterrent anti-submarine vessel has already been acquired by the UAE navy. Fulfaro said: “One of the critical issues of the region is the anti-submarine issue and this is the reason why we delivered to the UAE Navy a highly developed anti-submarine warfare vessel last year.”

    He expected discussion to proceed to the acquisitions of submarines, next. He said: “We assume that countries like Saudi Arabia and the UAE, in the near future, will start with deep discussions regarding their submarine fleet.”

    Describing these discussions as “very sensitive”, he said: “We need to create in the country specific skills and know how to manage such an important fleet,”.

    UAE and Saudi government representatives could not be contacted for their comments at the moment, though UAE Naval Commander Rear Adm. Ibrahim al-Musharrakh had said last year the navy wants submarines to combat threats.

    Speaking at the Gulf Naval Commanders’ Conference in Abu Dhabi last November, Musharrakh had said: “There are many different options for combating the threat of submarines in the region, for building the capacity and the capability to acquire submarines is something that is still under process and will take a long time. What we need is something within reach that we can use to counter the threat now; in the long term, you will probably see naval forces in the region acquiring submarines.”


    It was in November itself that the German Bild newspaper had quoted German government sources in saying that Saudi Arabia wanted to buy five German submarines and more than two dozen more in the future. It also talked about German-made Type 209 submarines, and the cost was estimated at $3.4 billion.

    Fulfaro said the requirement is for submarines in the 300-1,000 metric tons region.

    http://www.asian-defence.net/2014/02/uae-saudi-arabia-want-to-get-submarines.html
     
  2. DavidSling

    DavidSling SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    3,674
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2013
    Ratings:
    +5 / 4,150 / -4
    Country:
    Israel
    Location:
    Israel
    Submarines is a successful choice.
    Navy power should not be underestimated
     
  3. nang2

    nang2 SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,591
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2015
    Ratings:
    +3 / 2,858 / -1
    Country:
    China
    Location:
    United States
    2014. hello?!
     
  4. Zarvan

    Zarvan ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    44,754
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Ratings:
    +81 / 44,122 / -13
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    Finally both waking up. Saudi Arabia should have at least 8 Submarines which are equipped with VLS. As for UAE 3 should be more than enough for them but again they should be aggressive submarines.
     
  5. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,408
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Ratings:
    +16 / 14,546 / -0
    Country:
    Canada
    Location:
    Canada
    18th December 2016

    The Royal Saudi Navy is planning to procure new destroyers that have a ballistic missile defence capability as well as standard anti-air warfare role. US Navy Arleigh Burke-class destroyers from Huntington Ingalls are thought to be favoured although the smaller FREMM frigate from France and F-100 from Spain are also under consideration. A decision is expected in 2017.

    In addition there are plans for new frigates to cover anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (ASuW) roles in a programme announced in May. Several ships are required and initial plans saw the consideration of the purchase of four ships based on the Lockheed Martin design of the US Navy's Littoral Combat Ship. Although the offer was not accepted, negotiations will continue.

    Vintage choice

    The procurement programmes are part of a plan to replace the Royal Saudi Navy's 1980s vintage ships, which are also going through an upgrade. Other options on the table include the other US Navy LCS design from General Dynamics, the FREMM frigate that is built by French company DCNS for the French Navy and by Fincantieri for the Italian Navy. It is expected that Spanish shipbuilder Navantia will offer a variant of its F-100 frigate and Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems may offer one of its designs, probably the latest MEKO-class, which have been successfully exported in the past.

    A mixture of ships is likely because the navy has two separate fleets in the Gulf (East) and the Red Sea (West). The foreign military sales (FMS) request for the Lockheed-variant LCS was confirmed in October with an overall project value of $11.25 billion for up to eight ships.

    Another expensive piece of hardware and the most difficult to operate and sustain are submarines. Saudi Arabia has wanted to develop its underwater force for over a decade now but plans for six diesel-electrics attack boats that are suited for the shallow waters of the Gulf have not materialised. The main Western exporters of these types of submarine are ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, DCNS, Navantia, Saab Kockums, and Fincantieri, although there could be options from China, Russia and South Korea.

    Smaller ships like corvettes and offshore patrol vessels are cheaper and easier to acquire. As part of its Saudi Naval Expansion Programme II (SNEP II) the navy plans to replace its four Badr and nine Al Siddiq-class corvettes in its Eastern Fleet with five new ships for up to $3.5 billion. The main contender is thought to Navantia with its Avante-class corvettes with Spanish press reports stating that a contract is expected soon and that a second batch of five ships could come further down the line.

    Plans for patrol boats seem to have progressed with German press reports in 2014 suggesting that the publicity shy shipbuilder Lurssen has secured a $1.7 billion project for 2-3 OPVs about 80m-long, with 5-10 coastal patrol boats and 100 other smaller patrol boats and interceptor craft, which are yet to be confirmed . However, the Saudi Border Guard has already received the first CSB 40 patrol vessel from Lurssen with the second underway. About 15-20 of these are expected. A competition for smaller 35-45m-long patrol vessels is underway between two joint ventures, DCNS with Piriou against OCEA with Raidco Marine. In addition, an FMS announced in 2013 has called for the procurement of 30 Mark V patrol boats with support worth $1.2 billion.

    Into the 21st Century

    Meanwhile the navy is going ahead with a number of upgrade programmes to keep its older vessels in service. Paris and Riyadh have agreed to upgrade the four Madina-class frigates and two Boraida-class replenishment ships with French firms DCNS, Thales and MBDA (which will integrate Mistral air defence missiles) with its Simbad launcher doing the work in Saudi Arabia. This includes enhancing the combat systems, sensors, and electronic systems as well as hull refurbishment with each ship to be be worth in excess of $100 million.

    The four 70s vintage Badr-class corvettes are undergoing an upgrade in Saudi Arabia with US help after Tacoma Shipbuilders, where they were built in the 80s, shut down in 1992. The refit is taking place under a programme worth about $154.9 million confirmed through an FMS in February that will include the addition of Block 1B Baseline 2 upgrade kits from Raytheon for the Phalanx close-in weapon system as well as associated electro-optical systems, guns and other refurbishment work expected.

    Looking ahead there is a requirement for 3-4 new minehunter vessels as the existing Al Jawf-class (ex-UK Royal Navy Sandown-class) ships are getting to the end of their life cycles and it is unclear if one of the three Al Riyadh-class frigates (modified La Fayette-class from DCNS), which was damaged following its delivery under the Sawari II programme in 2004 will be returned to service.

    Shop or drop?

    This analysis across the land, air and maritime domains has provided some insight into the importance of the Saudi Arabian defence market to the West and gives some example of the money involved and demostrates the close relationship between the country and Western governments and industry.

    Their business keeps US and European shipyards open, manufacturing plants running and high tech industries moving because the Saudi Army, Air Force and Navy can all afford to buy the latest and most expensive military hardware available across the board – which is rare for an export customer.

    With European defence expenditure continuing its downward spiral and exports become ever more essential to sustain its industry and workforces it is likely that this relationship will get closer rather than part ways.



    https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/defence-notes/hold-analysis-saudi-arabia-close-customer-part-3-m/
     
  6. EpiiC

    EpiiC FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    859
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Ratings:
    +0 / 236 / -1
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    US Navy Arleigh Burke-class destroyers are best option for Saudi navy and maybe German subs or SMX OCCEAN sub.
     
  7. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,408
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Ratings:
    +16 / 14,546 / -0
    Country:
    Canada
    Location:
    Canada
    KSA refused the Arleigh Burke class in favour of custom made LCS with AEGIS and SMX (2,3,6)..
    No German subs, since Germany refused a deal for 5 plus an option for 20 more Class 209 for political reasons.. the same as for the 700 leopard MBTs..
    That leaves the SMX ocean as a good candidate, but KSA has some requirements that the French might not be willing to fullfil.. that leaves the Chinese option open..
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. Super Falcon

    Super Falcon ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    12,136
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2008
    Ratings:
    +0 / 4,100 / -4
    U 214 submarine is best they can get
     
  9. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,408
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Ratings:
    +16 / 14,546 / -0
    Country:
    Canada
    Location:
    Canada
  10. My-Analogous

    My-Analogous SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    5,546
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Ratings:
    +2 / 4,024 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Saudi Arabia
    KSA should go for Chinese Nuclear subs
     
  11. HannibalBarca

    HannibalBarca SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    4,917
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Ratings:
    +3 / 4,825 / -0
    Country:
    Tunisia
    Location:
    France
    Let them start with a diesel one first...
    And even if they want a nuclear one... even china will not provide one...
    It's like nuclear bomb, it stays in the owner house... or if you are already a nuclear power
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  12. My-Analogous

    My-Analogous SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    5,546
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Ratings:
    +2 / 4,024 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Saudi Arabia
    See if they have nuclear power house then why they don't Nuclear subs.
     
  13. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    6,690
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2015
    Ratings:
    +6 / 6,752 / -0
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    i dont see why they would need subs. the arabian sea is not that deep and venturing into the indian ocean is pointless.
     
  14. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,408
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Ratings:
    +16 / 14,546 / -0
    Country:
    Canada
    Location:
    Canada
    The Arabian sea is not deep?
     
  15. The SC

    The SC ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    14,408
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Ratings:
    +16 / 14,546 / -0
    Country:
    Canada
    Location:
    Canada
    KSA wants subs of around 1400 t, so nuclear subs are not on the agenda..