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Khanate

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In the last 20 years, we've bought/built, 180+ jets, 50+ helis, 600+ tanks, 10 submarines, nearly 30 surface vessels, yet less than a 100 MRAPs.
Why new post, let's keep a running thread for this. Since we that's how it seems Pakistan Army top brass views it. Bajwa busy interfering in politics rather then doing his job. War on terror started 21 years ago, other armies adopted but ours still can't get MRAPS. yes, we have financial restraints but where there is a will there is a way. Soldiers need better training and need to restart the hunt for these terrorist and their sympathizers


America deployed MRAPs in Afghanistan, did it end Afghan Taliban insurgency?

Deploying MRAPs, while important, will not end TTP insurgency either. It can potentially save soldier lives but TTP will adapt and change tactics, perhaps pick different targets. You can't fit entire Pakistan inside an MRAP.

No amount of doctrine changes or tactical adjustments can end TTP insurgency. Ask the Americans. They switched strategies in Afghanistan every year with nothing to show for.

The broader question Pakistan must answer is how does it envision the end of TTP?

Are we going after TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan?

Are we hoping TTP will wither away and die in Afghanistan?

No one has articulated an end game for TTP. It is all knee-jerk reactions.
 

Moon

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America deployed MRAPs in Afghanistan, did it end Afghan Taliban insurgency?

Deploying MRAPs, while important, will not end TTP insurgency either. It can potentially save soldier lives but TTP will adapt and change tactics, perhaps pick different targets. You can't fit entire Pakistan inside an MRAP.

No amount of doctrine changes or tactical adjustments can end TTP insurgency. Ask the Americans. They switched strategies in Afghanistan every year with nothing to show for.

The broader question Pakistan must answer is how does it envision the end of TTP?

Are we going after TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan?

Are we hoping TTP will wither away and die in Afghanistan?

No one has articulated an end game for TTP. It is all knee-jerk reactions.
It improved troop survival. And made sure NATO won every single tactical engagement, and do you know what was the result of that?
IEA refused to lift a finger against Americans/NATO since the last one year.
Tactical victories play a big game in defeating an asymmetric opponent, them realising that fighting is futile will play a big role in them dying off.
As for bombing them in Afghanistan, I agree with you on that one. We should've done it, yet we didn't.
 

Khanate

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It improved troop survival. And made sure NATO won every single tactical engagement, and do you know what was the result of that?
IEA refused to lift a finger against Americans/NATO since the last one year.
Tactical victories play a big game in defeating an asymmetric opponent, them realising that fighting is futile will play a big role in them dying off.
As for bombing them in Afghanistan, I agree with you on that one. We should've done it, yet we didn't.


Winning all battles while losing the war is the definition of pyrrhic victory.

I get what you are saying and I'm not against MRAPs or meaningful doctrine changes. I care and value soldier lives as much as you but MRAPs and doctrine changes did not win the Afghan war and it will not end TTP insurgency.

What Pakistan needs is to define an end-game for TTP. We have not done that.
 

Moon

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Monkeys showing love signs should be given a warning... (If they did it on purpose and not by mistake)
They will always mock and disrespect your fallen. They're your enemies, that's what they're supposed to do.
Winning all battles while losing the war is the definition of pyrrhic victory.

I get what you are saying and I'm not against MRAPs or doctrine changes. I care and value soldier lives as much as you but MRAPs and doctrine changes did not win the Afghan war and it will not end TTP insurgency.

What Pakistan needs is define an end-game for TTP.
A keystone in this endgame is to stop them from gaining any space in the region.
 

Great Janjua

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America deployed MRAPs in Afghanistan, did it end Afghan Taliban insurgency?

Deploying MRAPs, while important, will not end TTP insurgency either. It can potentially save soldier lives but TTP will adapt and change tactics, perhaps pick different targets. You can't fit entire Pakistan inside an MRAP.

No amount of doctrine changes or tactical adjustments can end TTP insurgency. Ask the Americans. They switched strategies in Afghanistan every year with nothing to show for.

The broader question Pakistan must answer is how does it envision the end of TTP?

Are we going after TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan?

Are we hoping TTP will wither away and die in Afghanistan?

No one has articulated an end game for TTP. It is all knee-jerk reactions.
Is post ko kehte Hain silver ki trakri Aur chale tholnay sona.Never have I read more dumb shit in my life. You know mate it does not take bloody 9 billion dollars to equip soldiers who are in hot zones.The army at this time certainly has enough funds to equip those who are in hot zones I repeat hot zones, MRAPS yes certainly will not bring down the casualty rates down to zero but will significantly reduce the attacks.Right now we are loosing men in harassing attacks,The aim being to harass the enemy to lower their morale but since we are equipped with shit equipment they manage to inflict more damage.Yet the army management is still up its own arse.Also I forgot to add doing airstrikes it's not no easy business you are violating a countrys airspace there, No matter how backwards a nation is you don't have the right to bomb it.Also bombing takes money and you know how cheap we already are when we don't even provide a basic armoured vehicle to a trooper.
 
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Pak_Sher

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inna lillahi wa inallah-e-raji'oon.

Ab a jayenge kuch boot chaat apne mai baap ki incompetence ko justify krne
The border should be sealed. Maybe Pakistan needs to create a buffer to prevent such attacks or engage targets inside Afghanistan. Afghanistan has played a double game of supporting terrorism in Pakistan and hosting all terrorist groups & sanctuaries against Pakistan. It is time the military leadership has a firm strategy to deal with the 3 faced Afghanis.
 

aamirzs

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Inna Lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un (Indeed, to Allah we belong and to Him we shall return)
 

hussain0216

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How dumb you can be to believe in all this BS???

Your justifications are not helping Pakistani state or its soldiers who are dying daily
It's going to happen whether we like it or not

I'm sure you are active on twitter, I belong to a group of friends that try to support Pakistan online

Trust me the afghands are burning up in absolute, hate as are the Indians

Now the problem is simple, all our enemies are not over the border, life would be simple if they were

We have millions Afghani are
millions of Afghan wannabes like PTM
Other nationalist types


and they are burning watching their Afghan dreams burn in fire 🔥

they want to hurt and attack and blame Pakistan

So as Afghanistan falls apart that's what's happening, they are triggered and the TTP that were always present and hiding amongst locals in Pakistan are trying to strike back


It was EXPECTED

now the fence is built, we need to hunt these people down at the same time not become panicky over a situation that anyone could have predicted
 

Darth Vader

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America deployed MRAPs in Afghanistan, did it end Afghan Taliban insurgency?

Deploying MRAPs, while important, will not end TTP insurgency either. It can potentially save soldier lives but TTP will adapt and change tactics, perhaps pick different targets. You can't fit entire Pakistan inside an MRAP.

No amount of doctrine changes or tactical adjustments can end TTP insurgency. Ask the Americans. They switched strategies in Afghanistan every year with nothing to show for.

The broader question Pakistan must answer is how does it envision the end of TTP?

Are we going after TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan?

Are we hoping TTP will wither away and die in Afghanistan?

No one has articulated an end game for TTP. It is all knee-jerk reactions.
Let me try to explain that in easier terms for you

If Pakistan makes 3 changes it will be a game-changer.
1 Intelligence agency of Pakistan ( Almighty ISI ) hit people who are actually funding these scums in their own backyard, Response to that aggressive strategy, (they are already doing what they can do to hurt Pakistan ), will leave a lesson for others that they are not safe either, if they are involved in this they won't be safe either it will limit the number of people who actually are willing to provide funds or weapons.

2nd Using Continues drone & Sat surveillance in active(hot) zones especially inside Pakistan & Afghanistan ( after murder of Chinese citizens I m sure china will provide that without any issue ), one Pakistan will always have update to date information, It gives Pakistan a lot of headroom in regards to how to engage these people, if Pakistan starts using drones in Afghanistan it will have 2 effects,
1 you need the Taliban on your side to create a buffer zone inside Afghanistan against Pakistani assets
2 you need to make sure you don't have civilians & noncombatants in the area as this was the biggest reason why it worked against Uncle Sam as Pakistan just can't risk that because of the high Pashtun population on both sides.
3rd MRAP & drones and newer system,
Pakistan has to, they have no other option to look after its soldier's life now, Soldiers are not expendable, people who are giving life for the country doesn't mean higher-ups have the right to throw these guys under the bus. They serve the country to protect it.
So With Better protection 1 it will raise the morale of units in these areas, will give them a better update on the situation so they can plan according to that, more freedom to move so they can go deeper into hostile areas with taking the lesser risk, now think how will it affect your enemy they even after its best effort they can't hurt you and themselves are getting picked by the enemy. it will limit their ability to hit Pakistani armed forces and then after that limit the ability to hit Civilians.
This is not a issue now as Lower to middle class you see a lot of younger lot joining the military if this continues, how will it affect next-generation military recruitment.

Specially when Pakistani economy gets better & people have more options to select.
 

Khanate

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Is post ko kehte Hain silver ki trakri Aur chale tholnay sona.Never have I read more dumb shit in my life. You know mate it does not take bloody 9 billion dollars to equip soldiers who are in hot zones.The army at this time certainly has enough funds to equip those who are in hot zones I repeat hot zones, MRAPS yes certainly will not bring down the casualty rates down to zero but will significantly reduce the attacks.Right now we are loosing men in harassing attacks,The aim being to harass the enemy to lower their morale but since we are equipped with shit equipment they manage to inflict more damage.Yet the army management is still up its own arse.Also I forgot to add doing airstrikes it's not no easy business you are violating a countrys airspace there, No matter how backwards a nation is you don't have the right to bomb it.Also bombing takes money and you know how cheap we already are when we don't even provide a basic armoured vehicle to a trooper.


I talked about knee-jerk reactions, this is what it looks like.

MRAPS ... will significantly reduce the attacks​

What is your source? Trust me bro?

For American soldiers who lived on a base in Afghanistan, MRAPs worked. But this is our country. We live everywhere. TTP will simply change tactics and pick different targets. Should we fit all of Pakistan in an MRAP?



A keystone in this endgame is to stop them from gaining any space in the region.
1 Intelligence agency of Pakistan ( Almighty ISI ) hit people who are actually funding these scums in their own backyard, Response to that aggressive strategy, (they are already doing what they can do to hurt Pakistan ), will leave a lesson for others that they are not safe either, if they are involved in this they won't be safe either it will limit the number of people who actually are willing to provide funds or weapons.


India funds TTP, BRAS, SRA and other terrorist cells in Pakistan, we know this.

With Pakistan stuck on FATF grey list, there is bound to be some momentary strategic restraint.



2nd Using Continues drone & Sat surveillance in active(hot) zones especially inside Pakistan & Afghanistan ( after murder of Chinese citizens I m sure china will provide that without any issue ), one Pakistan will always have update to date information, It gives Pakistan a lot of headroom in regards to how to engage these people, if Pakistan starts using drones in Afghanistan it will have 2 effects,


There are no areas in Pakistan under TTP control to surveil.

These are hit-and-run attacks, carried out by sleeper cells. Drone surveillance is not very effective here hence the reliance on IBOs.



3rd MRAP & drones and newer system,
Pakistan has to, they have no other option to look after its soldier's life now, Soldiers are not expendable, people who are giving life for the country doesn't mean higher-ups have the right to throw these guys under the bus. They serve the country to protect it.


Soldier lives are more precious than any equipment and I have repeatedly said I am not against protecting soldier lives especially when we deploy them in hot zones. I am for MRAPs, drones or whatever equipment is needed in the border regions.

The point here is to elevate the debate above 'bajwa doctrine bad' and 'more mraps'. Defeating a modern insurgency is a complex subject and I'm sure people in the army and FC understand the topic better than I ever would. But this is not reflected in the public discourse where we don't even have a vision for how to end the TTP insurgency. Is it any wonder then that pressure groups like PTM are growing unchecked?
 
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Darth Vader

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I talked about knee-jerk reactions, this is what it looks like.

MRAPS ... will significantly reduce the attacks​

What is your source? Trust me bro?

For American soldiers who lived on a base in Afghanistan, MRAPs worked. But this is our country. We live everywhere. TTP will simply change tactics and pick different targets. Should we fit all of Pakistan in an MRAP?


India funds TTP, BRAS, SRA and other terrorist cells in Pakistan, we know this.

With Pakistan stuck on FATF grey list, there is bound to be some momentary strategic restraint.


There are no areas in Pakistan under TTP control to surveil.

These are hit-and-run attacks, carried out by sleeper cells. Drone surveillance is not very effective here hence the reliance on IBOs.

Soldier lives are more precious than any equipment and I have repeatedly said I am not against protecting soldier lives especially when we deploy them in hot zones. I am for MRAPs, drones or whatever equipment is needed in the border regions.

The point here is to elevate the debate above 'bajwa doctrine bad' and 'more mraps'. Defeating a modern insurgency is a complex subject and I'm sure people in the army and FC understand the topic better than I ever would. But this is not reflected in the public discourse where we don't even have a vision for how to end the TTP insurgency. Is it any wonder then that pressure groups like PTM are growing unchecked?

I don't think you actually wanna understand what others are trying to say

Good Armour protection doesn't reduce the attacks from the enemy but they increase the survival rate of friendly troops ( Now is that a good thing or bad thing ) Yes Pakistan cant deploy a huge number of Armour personal carriers but Pakistan can at least deploy few fleets of few hundreds which are used in these hot zones, Even With WOT going for last decade you didn't see whole Pakistani army move to Western border only some of its forces were deployed, now the reason everyone keeps repeating is
if you look in the last 10 years besides active operations majority of army personal death came from IED attacks and attacks on coveys in these regions now if you had better protection how many hundreds of soldier could have been alive now.

Now instead of purchasing Expensive one HIT was developing few, Pakistan could have started JV with turkish companies, even so, produce a large number at much lower price compared to western products even if they were not high tech atleast they would have much more useful then Toyota tin can.

Now to your 2nd point Drone surveillance is not very effective I don't know what are you talking about ?
Even if Pakistan doesn't have very high endurance drones, Pakistan does somewhat decent capabilities when it comes to drones Pakistan can deploy MALE UAV purchased from china or at least can get some tailor-made drones from the private sector or at least from NESCOM heck even from Turkey.

In regards to Hit & Run Majority of these attacks are happening are in Balochistan, Looking at the terrain itself Drones are the best, cheapest, safest, quickest option as you don't have large densely populated areas, so you dont have civilian casualties. similarly, Pakistan cant always maintain a large numeric force on its western border as well as the eastern border, its really expensive and put a strain in supply chain as well, and in case hostilities with India rise, that force will need to be redeployed which will leave this side empty so from the get-go its better to create a system which is at least somewhat autonomous and can be manned by very least number of people with high accuracy that's why you have to rely on modern systems.


Now people are complaining about top brass it's understandable you have a lot of soldiers dying weekly, while Army Chief is busy inviting politicians, you don't see any statements comings from any channels, you don't see any actual operations being carried out, since everyone says these people are moving from Afghanistan why don't see any action closer to the border? how are they getting these weapons inside Pakistan, who is providing them money, CNICs, vehicles to move, nothing is happening,

Lets compare that to 2019 Indian LOC attack, Pakistan retaliated the next day ? is Afghanistan or TTP more strong than India ? Heck they only bombed some trees and killed some crows ? what would have Pakistani military's reaction if they actually killed some soldiers ? Answer - Its because of your political image, You dont see much engagement from your public when some grunts die in the backend area in Balochistan who cares that's the main problem Pakistan has been a war for over a decade and the Military still hasn't changed its tactics. Something is wrong somewhere
 

Sainthood 101

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This isn't even the biggest danger, we are probably training a bigger danger rn

These South Punjab groups are probably fighting with AT

They'll get experienced and come and kill Shias in Pakistan, create civil strife

TTP 2.0 on our hands but in heartland

Economy in shambles again, but our strategic "minds" will put the savages within SP

Radicalize locals and try to use em against someone but in turn they'll try to "reform" Pakistan from within

Can we get lessons from Iran about controlling proxies
 
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Khanate

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Good Armour protection doesn't reduce the attacks from the enemy but they increase the survival rate of friendly troops ( Now is that a good thing or bad thing ) Yes Pakistan cant deploy a huge number of Armour personal carriers but Pakistan can at least deploy few fleets of few hundreds which are used in these hot zones, Even With WOT going for last decade you didn't see whole Pakistani army move to Western border only some of its forces were deployed, now the reason everyone keeps repeating is


For the millionth time, I am not against MRAPs.

Deploy MRAPs or any COIN related equipment to protect soldier lives. However, it will not win us the insurgency. TTP will switch tactics and pick different targets. Then what? This ties into the fact that we don't have an endgame in mind for TTP.



Now instead of purchasing Expensive one HIT was developing few, Pakistan could have started JV with turkish companies, even so, produce a large number at much lower price compared to western products even if they were not high tech atleast they would have much more useful then Toyota tin can.


We all want HIT to step up in a big way. Nothing new here.



Now to your 2nd point Drone surveillance is not very effective I don't know what are you talking about ?


Non-issue. Deploy the drones.



Now people are complaining about top brass it's understandable you have a lot of soldiers dying weekly, while Army Chief is busy inviting politicians


FC KP and Balochistan are under Ministry of Interior.

Either point your questions to Sheikh Rasheed or transfer FC under GHQ so you have a legit reason for your outbursts against COAS.

Incidentally, bringing FC under GHQ could solve COIN related equipment issues. Bilal Khan discussed this in another thread. Do give it a read.


everyone says these people are moving from Afghanistan why don't see any action closer to the border? how are they getting these weapons inside Pakistan, who is providing them money, CNICs, vehicles to move, nothing is happening,


Our system is open to exploitation. Those aren't new revelations.



Lets compare that to 2019 Indian LOC attack, Pakistan retaliated the next day ? is Afghanistan or TTP more strong than India ? Heck they only bombed some trees and killed some crows ? what would have Pakistani military's reaction if they actually killed some soldiers ? Answer - Its because of your political image, You dont see much engagement from your public when some grunts die in the backend area in Balochistan who cares that's the main problem Pakistan has been a war for over a decade and the Military still hasn't changed its tactics. Something is wrong somewhere


State vs Terrorist proxies

India attacked Pakistan in 2019, and we responded in kind.

India funds terrorist proxies to do its bidding and so we go after these proxy groups.

Should we take the fight to the enemy?

We did just that with Pathankot, Uri, Nagrota, Pulwama but now with FATF, there is some restraint.
 

Pak Nationalist

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To FC Jawans embrace shadat in an attack. Earlier today four soldiers including an officer also injured in attack by TTP. What the hell is going on ??? We have totally failed. Sorry but Army leadership seriously either needs to resign or do something drastic about it. We are loosing at least two soldiers on daily bases for past two months. This is disgusting. Even fencing seems to be one big fraud.
Fencing was always going to be a dud, a waste of tax payer's money. People from the tribal districts tell me that TTP has dug up tunnels which it is using to easily move across the border. HUMINT network appears to be nearly non-existent. When there is no public pressure on institutions to deliver (the public doesn't know because the news of casualties is suppressed on institutional instructions), don't expect the status quo to change. This is in FATA, Balochistan had 2-3 attacks in two districts yesterday (like any other day). There is no response, no strategy. The current military leadership appears to be completely paralyzed, not even reacting, let alone proacting.
 

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