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Twitter Q&A on JF-17 Thunder Program with Horus & Oscar

CriticalThought

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Again I don't know why u keep saying that...I never denied this technology's existence. Read my post 135. I only said that USAF isn't going to acquire it(operationalized/acquired in large quantities on JASSM/UAVs) until mid 2020s.

So what u r saying here is that if the French do get it they r not going to advertise it on the website...meaning there is no proof that the French acquired this tech from Raytheon/Boeing...and yet u r adamant that the French Rafales have it?

It is not a traitorous mentality. It is called considering the facts...FACTS and basing judgement on reality. Pak isn't US/China/KSA with immense capital... to throw around just bcuz u can. Pak's enemy has a much bigger capital to spend on arms...and Pak has to carefully utilize its limited resources to effectively counter and deter the enemy.

The threat of Rafales is being considered but based on facts. All the facts currently point to Rafales having top notch JAMMING capabilities, which will be countered with the upgrading of subsystems to make them less prone to jamming.

The future threat isn't being ignored either. The next gen fighter program is based on the threats PAF would face within the time frame when it would be operationalized.
Again you are displaying your two-faced subtle denial of what was discussed earlier. Throughout this discussion, you have maintained that the technology is not mature enough to be fielded by the U.S. even.

upload_2017-9-4_2-1-40.png


I have just shown how you cherry pick on information to forward your own opinion and views. You are a toxic person who disseminates wrong information. This is the first thing I hold against you. The fact of the matter is, the USAF already has CHAMP operational in limited quantity. It is a technology that can be deployed today if emergency strikes. This lays to waste your earlier claim that the French cannot have it, since even Americans don't have it today. Look at the red rectangle below. Now tell me, do you have even a semblance of shame in yourself? How much duplicity will you display to keep your dead horse in the race?

upload_2017-9-4_2-5-52.png


You have one purpose in this discussion: to somehow prove your point that EMP weapons are not a threat. In order to achieve this, you will engage in everything from personal attacks to excuses of lack of finance, to shoddy displays of 'realism'. I said this earlier, and I am saying this again: it is a singular displeasure conversing with you, because you will descend to all lows in order to further your own argument. Sit in a corner, and reflect upon this.

The Indians are paying approx. 9 Billion dollars for 36 planes. Have you ever thought where this money will be spent? The simple answer is, they are getting the best technology that money can buy today. This is a no holds barred move by India to get absolute superiority in S. Asia. People like you are enemies in disguise, because you try to trivialize threats we face. You obviously don't understand where the cutting edge of technology stands, and you for one should not be telling anyone what threat is serious or otherwise.

The JF17B already has a bigger nosecone...and so yes it has to do with AESA. This rather shows ur total lack of knowledge. These r indeed "minor tweaks" as compared to what u r arguing...which is to change the entire airframe to make it stealth.

This wasn't as big of an investment as it would be to change the entire airframe for stealth shaping. I have no purpose/agenda here for which I'm trying to ignore/change anything. Which Pakistani wouldn't like their country to have a stealth fighter? What I'm arguing is making smart use of resources. JF17 was conceptualized in the 1990s...it's purpose was to replace the aging platforms like F7s/Mirages, be sanction proof, built according to Pak needs, built indigenous capacity/industry. It is on track for all of that. Trying to modify something like that into a 5th gen is beyond retarded. Instead a new program from scratch should focus on that...and guess what it already is.
Dude, how much knowledge do you have about aerodynamics, system design and engineering, and aircraft manufacturing? I just explained to you what a fundamental change these modifications cause to the basic characteristics of the aircraft, and you are continuing your claims of 'minor tweaks'? This is again, misinformation that you are spreading on the forum. The production of B version was launched in April 2016

http://indianexpress.com/article/wo...ch-production-of-jf-17b-fighter-jets-2774819/

From that time, it took a year for the first flight of a working prototype. The budget for this model has not been disclosed. Do you understand the work involved in conceptualization, iterating through design choices, design verification, and eventual production? You are calling all of this, at least a whole year of hard work, a 'minor tweak'. At this point, I suggest you put the keyboard away and engage in something that is closer to your capabilities. You are an absolute clubie who is Bull Sh***ing on the forum and making uncorroborated claims.

Understand this, if something is considered valuable enough, it shall be implemented. And you are not in a position to say what is valuable enough.

No country on earth followed the approach u r suggesting. The Americans didn't take their F16 and tried to turn it into stealth. The Russians didn't take their Su27 variants and tried turning it into a stealth fighter. The Chinese didn't take their F7s and modify it into a stealth plane. The Japanese didn't take their F2 and modify it into stealth.
Again, you have no knowledge on this subject. Either that, or you deceitfully left the F-15 out of your list. Read about the Silent Eagle here, and don't cherry pick. Don't tell me 'This is just a prototype'. The important part is that Israel has been requesting the Silent Eagles and actively denied by America. This is a very good example of a legacy jet being transformed into a LO jet.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...52/boeings-stealthy-f-15-silent-eagle-israel/

Another example is the FC-20 project. It takes the overall Thunder platform, and transforms it into a more stealthy design. Yes, seniors on this very forum have confirmed such a project was planned back in 2009, but lack of funding killed it.

So yes, stealth features for JF-17 make perfect sense.

Yes I did use the word "probably"...regarding ur comment about the stealth shaping of JF17 airframe...
"moreover to create such a precise frame on PAC's production lines would probably require a major technological upgrade."
Bcuz unlike u I don't claim to know something if I don't know it. I don't know the current capabilities of PAC in terms of precision manufacturing. Considering the PAC hasn't produced a stealth fighter before where the airframe has extremely low levels of tolerances...I assume that it would require some upgrades in the manufacturing process.
Yes, you don't know. Which is why you should be the very last person to confidently opinionate on the subject.

Probably, the news went unnoticed by yourself, but recently we got to know that PAF is acquiring a new Europoean solution for Aircraft Health Management. Read the news on Quwa

http://quwa.org/2017/08/21/pakistan...rtuguese-structural-health-management-system/

and the official press release by the company

http://www.critical-materials.com/e...by-pakistan-aeronautical-complex#.WZpGqSiGOUk

upload_2017-9-4_2-51-51.png


The PAF is constantly modernizing itself. There is no reason to believe it cannot acquire the precision manufacturing technologies needed for a basic stealthy design.

Yes PAC should acquire such capabilities over time as they will be needed for the next gen fighter jet program...and not the JF17. The JF17 program is working fine...accomplishing what it was intended for.

That's they keyword there...bang for the buck. The reduction in IR signature with the modified intake cowls would help evading a heat seaking missile increasing survivability. Stealth shaping the airframe and not using increased amount of composites and ram coatings doesn't fully deliver the deliver the benefits of the stealth shaping and has a massive cost associated with it...hence it is not going to happen.
Have you ever read a technical review of stealth planes? Every review starts by commenting on the aircraft's surfaces. To give you an example, read an analysis of F-22 stealth

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-stealth.htm
Low observability is achieved by a range of measures. The F-22 employs planform shaping and faceting with blended facet boundaries, the latter a necessary concession to high performance aerodynamics. This is apparent in the shape of the nose, the fuselage sides about the inlets and engines, and the upper forward fuselage. Lockheed/B/GD used serrated edges extensively, as with the F-117A, to control the returns from panel boundaries, this is very visible on the undercarriage and weapon bay doors. The planform results in a multiple lobe design, as the boundaries of the major surfaces are not parallel with respect to each other. Planform return lobe structure is defined by the radiation pattern lobes resulting from surface wave reflections which occur at the leading and trailing edges of the airframe's major surfaces. The objective of lobing is to concentrate this unavoidable radar return into specific directions so as to minimise frontal/aft/beam aspect return and maximise scintillation in the direction of the lobe. Scintillation is a measure of how rapidly the size of the return varies with angle, the greater this variation, the more difficult a target is to track. The lower the number of lobes and the narrower the lobes, the lower the probability of detecting any return.

Radar absorbant materials, or RAM is applied sparingly on the F-22 airframe as opposed to the entire airframe on the F-117. This is because designers have incorporated curves on crucial surfaces and edges, which lessens the need for RAM. For example, new ceramic-matrix RAM is utilized on the engine exhaust nozzles to reduce radar and IR signatures, and a greater amount of wide-band structural RAM is used on the wing edges. The interesting shape of the radome on the F-22 reflects radar signals at all frequencies except the precise wavelengths emitted from the F-22. This can be attributed to the radome's low bandpass type.
Now, do you see why surface geometry matters more than RAM coatings? Let me spell this out to you, loud and clear. In order to achieve stealthy design, it is more important to have the right angular surfaces than RAM coatings. So, yes, a diamond nose accompanied by other structural changes will definitely make a difference.

This discussion has become pointless. U can continue to believe what u want. Let's stop here and let time be the judge. Let's come back when block III is unveiled and see if it has diamond nose and the rest of the airframe stealth shaped. If it is I will admit right here in front of everyone that I was wrong...u were right...
but if block III comes out without that diamond nose/stealth shaping...and looks more or less like JF17 and JF17B...r u willing to do the same?

Let's just leave it up to the actual experts(ppl involved JF17 project) and time...and we will find out who was right.
Yes, this is a pointless discussion. You know why? Because I have no where maintained that Block 3 *will have* stealth features. I like indulging in hypotheticals, and I like listing my wishes. They tend to be informed wishes and I like engaging in constructive discussions with others on the forum. Remember this before trying to butt heads with me. I don't take kindly to uninformed individuals who pass off their baseless opinions as the ultimate truth and destroy the quality of the forum.
 

Cookie Monster

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Again you are displaying your two-faced subtle denial of what was discussed earlier. Throughout this discussion, you have maintained that the technology is not mature enough to be fielded by the U.S. even.

View attachment 422840

I have just shown how you cherry pick on information to forward your own opinion and views. You are a toxic person who disseminates wrong information. This is the first thing I hold against you. The fact of the matter is, the USAF already has CHAMP operational in limited quantity. It is a technology that can be deployed today if emergency strikes. This lays to waste your earlier claim that the French cannot have it, since even Americans don't have it today. Look at the red rectangle below. Now tell me, do you have even a semblance of shame in yourself? How much duplicity will you display to keep your dead horse in the race?

View attachment 422851

You have one purpose in this discussion: to somehow prove your point that EMP weapons are not a threat. In order to achieve this, you will engage in everything from personal attacks to excuses of lack of finance, to shoddy displays of 'realism'. I said this earlier, and I am saying this again: it is a singular displeasure conversing with you, because you will descend to all lows in order to further your own argument. Sit in a corner, and reflect upon this.

The Indians are paying approx. 9 Billion dollars for 36 planes. Have you ever thought where this money will be spent? The simple answer is, they are getting the best technology that money can buy today. This is a no holds barred move by India to get absolute superiority in S. Asia. People like you are enemies in disguise, because you try to trivialize threats we face. You obviously don't understand where the cutting edge of technology stands, and you for one should not be telling anyone what threat is serious or otherwise.
Damn...u cross all boundaries of stupidity. U r going on and on about Indian Rafales having EMP systems and u have provided "proof" for this by stitching together that Americans have developed it(not yet operationalized) and French can acquire it bcuz France has good relations with US...and since India is paying a lot of money it will be on Indian Rafales. Quite a lot of assumptions with zero proof. I'm done trying to use logic with u. It's plain and simple...since u r making this claim the burden of proof lies on u. Provide proof that Indian Rafales will have EMP capability or else this is just ur baseless opinion.

Dude, how much knowledge do you have about aerodynamics, system design and engineering, and aircraft manufacturing? I just explained to you what a fundamental change these modifications cause to the basic characteristics of the aircraft, and you are continuing your claims of 'minor tweaks'? This is again, misinformation that you are spreading on the forum. The production of B version was launched in April 2016

http://indianexpress.com/article/wo...ch-production-of-jf-17b-fighter-jets-2774819/

From that time, it took a year for the first flight of a working prototype. The budget for this model has not been disclosed. Do you understand the work involved in conceptualization, iterating through design choices, design verification, and eventual production? You are calling all of this, at least a whole year of hard work, a 'minor tweak'. At this point, I suggest you put the keyboard away and engage in something that is closer to your capabilities. You are an absolute clubie who is Bull Sh***ing on the forum and making uncorroborated claims.
And I assume u r the authority here on aerodynamics? Let me guess u r gonna come back saying that u have a background in this and that's what u do for a living. Well the good news is that u r not alone. There's plenty of self proclaimed "experts" on this forum...u'll fit right in.

Do u hear urself when u argue? So here u r saying urself that it took a year and money to enlarge the nose, wings, and make the tail swept back...imagine how much more time and money it will take to turn JF17 into a stealth airframe(the whole airframe and not just the nose/wings/tail). So yes compared to ur stupid suggestions, what they did would indeed be considered "minor" changes as opposed to changing the whole airframe for stealth shaping.

Understand this, if something is considered valuable enough, it shall be implemented. And you are not in a position to say what is valuable enough.
I may not be in that position but news flash genius...neither r u. Ur suggestions/wishes r plain stupid and they r not going to happen. The block III would come without a diamond nose and/or stealth airframe.

Again, you have no knowledge on this subject. Either that, or you deceitfully left the F-15 out of your list. Read about the Silent Eagle here, and don't cherry pick. Don't tell me 'This is just a prototype'. The important part is that Israel has been requesting the Silent Eagles and actively denied by America. This is a very good example of a legacy jet being transformed into a LO jet.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...52/boeings-stealthy-f-15-silent-eagle-israel/
Educate urself u fool. Like I said no stealth aircraft relies on shaping the airframe alone. U r digging urself deeper into the hole. Read up on silent eagle before u make more false statements.
First up they changed the airframe a bit bcuz the F15 airframe was not designed for stealth.
"Distinguishing features are the conformal weapons bays (CWB)...and the twin vertical tails canted outward 15 degrees to reduce radar cross section."
"The F-15SE will use fifth generation fighter technologies, such as radar absorbing materials, to reduce its radar cross-section (RCS)."

Like I said relying on airframe shaping alone for stealth isn't sufficient. Do u see how they have to use RAM(radar absorbing materials)...other than just shaping the airframe? RAM and composites are a must in any stealth airframe...no stealth aircraft relies on shaping alone.

Secondly it is a watered down version of "stealth"...bcuz of the hodgepodge stealth features added on to a legacy airframe.
"The F-15SE shall have a level of stealth that the U.S. government allows for export, being optimized for air-to-air missions (against X-band radars) and much less effective against ground radars (which use other frequencies).[5]Boeing stated that this stealth will only be in the range of fifth generation aircraft such as the F-35 Lightning II from the frontal aspect"

Third there r no export customers for this. It was a nice try from u to use that one article to show Israel's "interest" but the reality is Israel opted for F35 instead...and so did Japan and South Korea. KSA went for F15SA instead of F15SE(Silent Eagle) and so far the US hasn't gotten it either. So the F15SE just sits there as a watered down stealth demonstrator and nothing more. Nice try but take ur dead horse of an idea elsewhere. Nobody wants a "somewhat stealth" fighter when they can use that money for an actual stealth fighter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F-15SE_Silent_Eagle

Another example is the FC-20 project. It takes the overall Thunder platform, and transforms it into a more stealthy design. Yes, seniors on this very forum have confirmed such a project was planned back in 2009, but lack of funding killed it.
So yes, stealth features for JF-17 make perfect sense.
And u further prove my point. So the JF17 project is still going. The next gen fighter program is in the works and this hodgepodge stealth JF17(FC 20) project is dead. Do u see how there's no takers of ur stupid idea? They would rather use the money wisely and fulfill the intended goals for which the projects were laid out.
All the evidence u have provided to back up ur idea is a project(FC 20) that was killed and another is the F15SE that had no buyers and sits as a demonstrator. :woot:

Yes, you don't know. Which is why you should be the very last person to confidently opinionate on the subject.

Probably, the news went unnoticed by yourself, but recently we got to know that PAF is acquiring a new Europoean solution for Aircraft Health Management. Read the news on Quwa

http://quwa.org/2017/08/21/pakistan...rtuguese-structural-health-management-system/

and the official press release by the company

http://www.critical-materials.com/e...by-pakistan-aeronautical-complex#.WZpGqSiGOUk

View attachment 422856
I did read that news. I visit Quwa often. What probably escapes u is that this is to test the health of the airframe...as in its structural integrity. I was talking about precision manufacturing(the kind that is required to manufacture a stealth airframe). Do u know what that is? Why don't u go read up on that before displaying ur stupidity here.

The PAF is constantly modernizing itself. There is no reason to believe it cannot acquire the precision manufacturing technologies needed for a basic stealthy design.
Indeed it can acquire it. I never said it can't. I said that would be an added cost for a design that has already been created and is working well for what it was intended. Acquiring such tech would make sense for the next gen fighter program but not for redesigning JF17.

Have you ever read a technical review of stealth planes? Every review starts by commenting on the aircraft's surfaces. To give you an example, read an analysis of F-22 stealth

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-22-stealth.htm

Now, do you see why surface geometry matters more than RAM coatings? Let me spell this out to you, loud and clear. In order to achieve stealthy design, it is more important to have the right angular surfaces than RAM coatings. So, yes, a diamond nose accompanied by other structural changes will definitely make a difference.
We were never discussing which aspect has more importance(the shaping vs RAM coatings vs composites)...nor did I claim as such. All I said is u can't rely on stealth shaping alone. The cost associated with it is not worth the payout. If going for a stealth airframe then to achieve true LO u have to go for the whole package, which is stealth shaping/utilization of composites/RAM coatings. If one of these things alone could do the job then why would companies/air forces hike up the price of the aircraft adding these "unnecessary" things. So in short ur argument in post 147 "Diamond nose and radar dispersive angular surfaces are a basic structural modification. We are not talking using advanced and costly materials." is retarded.

Yes, this is a pointless discussion. You know why? Because I have no where maintained that Block 3 *will have* stealth features. I like indulging in hypotheticals, and I like listing my wishes. They tend to be informed wishes and I like engaging in constructive discussions with others on the forum. Remember this before trying to butt heads with me. I don't take kindly to uninformed individuals who pass off their baseless opinions as the ultimate truth and destroy the quality of the forum.
True u never claimed that block III "will have" stealth features and that u merely wished it. But ur wish is stupid. U r nothing but a childish fanboy who lets his imagination run wild ignoring the realities of the world. U can wish for this all u want but it won't happen. JF17 program will follow its intended path and a separate program for the next gen stealth jet will follow its own course. I'm just glad that these programs r in capable hands and those ppl r not idiots like u.

U r nothing but an ill-mannered fool. I have had a lot of discussions on PDF with many members in a respectable manner...and even if no agreement was reached, it was still a respectful "agree to disagree" ending of those debates but u r a different breed...one that resorts to personal attacks right from the start in order to make up for ur lack of knowledge. It was truly my mistake to not realize ur lack of mental capacity earlier. I have wasted enough of my time arguing with u and u have wasted enough posts here writing fiction. So this is where it ends. Quote me or not u won't get a reply.
 
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CriticalThought

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Damn...u cross all boundaries of stupidity. U r going on and on about Indian Rafales having EMP systems and u have provided "proof" for this by stitching together that Americans have developed it(not yet operationalized) and French can acquire it bcuz France has good relations with US...and since India is paying a lot of money it will be on Indian Rafales. Quite a lot of assumptions with zero proof. I'm done trying to use logic with u. It's plain and simple...since u r making this claim the burden of proof lies on u. Provide proof that Indian Rafales will have EMP capability or else this is just ur baseless opinion.


And I assume u r the authority here on aerodynamics? Let me guess u r gonna come back saying that u have a background in this and that's what u do for a living. Well the good news is that u r not alone. There's plenty of self proclaimed "experts" on this forum...u'll fit right in.

Do u hear urself when u argue? So here u r saying urself that it took a year and money to enlarge the nose, wings, and make the tail swept back...imagine how much more time and money it will take to turn JF17 into a stealth airframe(the whole airframe and not just the nose/wings/tail). So yes compared to ur stupid suggestions, what they did would indeed be considered "minor" changes as opposed to changing the whole airframe for stealth shaping.


I may not be in that position but news flash genius...neither r u. Ur suggestions/wishes r plain stupid and they r not going to happen. The block III would come without a diamond nose and/or stealth airframe.


Educate urself u fool. Like I said no stealth aircraft relies on shaping the airframe alone. U r digging urself deeper into the hole. Read up on silent eagle before u make more false statements.
First up they changed the airframe a bit bcuz the F15 airframe was not designed for stealth.
"Distinguishing features are the conformal weapons bays (CWB)...and the twin vertical tails canted outward 15 degrees to reduce radar cross section."
"The F-15SE will use fifth generation fighter technologies, such as radar absorbing materials, to reduce its radar cross-section (RCS)."

Like I said relying on airframe shaping alone for stealth isn't sufficient. Do u see how they have to use RAM(radar absorbing materials)...other than just shaping the airframe? RAM and composites are a must in any stealth airframe...no stealth aircraft relies on shaping alone.

Secondly it is a watered down version of "stealth"...bcuz of the hodgepodge stealth features added on to a legacy airframe.
"The F-15SE shall have a level of stealth that the U.S. government allows for export, being optimized for air-to-air missions (against X-band radars) and much less effective against ground radars (which use other frequencies).[5]Boeing stated that this stealth will only be in the range of fifth generation aircraft such as the F-35 Lightning II from the frontal aspect"

Third there r no export customers for this. It was a nice try from u to use that one article to show Israel's "interest" but the reality is Israel opted for F35 instead...and so did Japan and South Korea. KSA went for F15SA instead of F15SE(Silent Eagle) and so far the US hasn't gotten it either. So the F15SE just sits there as a watered down stealth demonstrator and nothing more. Nice try but take ur dead horse of an idea elsewhere. Nobody wants a "somewhat stealth" fighter when they can use that money for an actual stealth fighter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F-15SE_Silent_Eagle


And u further prove my point. So the JF17 project is still going. The next gen fighter program is in the works and this hodgepodge stealth JF17(FC 20) project is dead. Do u see how there's no takers of ur stupid idea? They would rather use the money wisely and fulfill the intended goals for which the projects were laid out.
All the evidence u have provided to back up ur idea is a project(FC 20) that was killed and another is the F15SE that had no buyers and sits as a demonstrator. :woot:


I did read that news. I visit Quwa often. What probably escapes u is that this is to test the health of the airframe...as in its structural integrity. I was talking about precision manufacturing(the kind that is required to manufacture a stealth airframe). Do u know what that is? Why don't u go read up on that before displaying ur stupidity here.


Indeed it can acquire it. I never said it can't. I said that would be an added cost for a design that has already been created and is working well for what it was intended. Acquiring such tech would make sense for the next gen fighter program but not for redesigning JF17.


We were never discussing which aspect has more importance(the shaping vs RAM coatings vs composites)...nor did I claim as such. All I said is u can't rely on stealth shaping alone. The cost associated with it is not worth the payout. If going for a stealth airframe then to achieve true LO u have to go for the whole package, which is stealth shaping/utilization of composites/RAM coatings. If one of these things alone could do the job then why would companies/air forces hike up the price of the aircraft adding these "unnecessary" things. So in short ur argument in post 147 "Diamond nose and radar dispersive angular surfaces are a basic structural modification. We are not talking using advanced and costly materials." is retarded.


True u never claimed that block III "will have" stealth features and that u merely wished it. But ur wish is stupid. U r nothing but a childish fanboy who lets his imagination run wild ignoring the realities of the world. U can wish for this all u want but it won't happen. JF17 program will follow its intended path and a separate program for the next gen stealth jet will follow its own course. I'm just glad that these programs r in capable hands and those ppl r not idiots like u.

U r nothing but an ill-mannered fool. I have had a lot of discussions on PDF with many members in a respectable manner...and even if no agreement was reached, it was still a respectful "agree to disagree" ending of those debates but u r a different breed...one that resorts to personal attacks right from the start in order to make up for ur lack of knowledge. It was truly my mistake to not realize ur lack of mental capacity earlier. I have wasted enough of my time arguing with u and u have wasted enough posts here writing fiction. So this is where it ends. Quote me or not u won't get a reply.
Hey you pathetic dog belonging to a family of curs. I have warned you not to use one pejorative against me. You should see me in person, and I will knock sense into your sh*t filled brain where grey matter is replaced with dog sh*t.

You don't understand the basics of aerodynamics, stealth or jet fighter design at all. You have no grasp of where technology sits or where it is going in the future. I am calling you out as a bull sh*tter who is hell bent upon detailing the thread. You engaged me in conversation to get across your lame point that my ideas are not worthy of discussion. And you are continuously responding and baiting me. This is termed harrasment in civilized circles. Try responding and I will go up your lineage and show you your family tree as well. Don't think I am going to back off. Not here, not in real life either. Bast*rd.
 

araz

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
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@CriticalThought and @Cookie Monster .Please stop personal insults and name calling. Stick to the topic. If you want to discuss EMP weapons and what the IAF Rafales will have open a new thread and get the mods to transfer your posts and slug it out. Any further infringements will lead to negative ratings and post deletions. Please guys this is a friendly request.
A
 

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