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Quwa

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I have a few questions about the Turkish TF-2000 AAW FFG, if the Turkish members can respond, that'd be great.

1) When will the first ship enter sea-trials?

2) What is the expected displacement in tonnes?

3) Any chances of exporting the ship in the future?

4) What is the expected armament in terms of SAM? ESSM & SM2?
 

Nutuk

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I have a few questions about the Turkish TF-2000 AAW FFG, if the Turkish members can respond, that'd be great.

1) When will the first ship enter sea-trials?

2) What is the expected displacement in tonnes?

3) Any chances of exporting the ship in the future?

4) What is the expected armament in terms of SAM? ESSM & SM2?


1) Probably in 2013 since the TF2000 project is to start in 2009 (according to Murad Bayar, head of the SSM)

2) ? pure guess, estimated >5000 tonnes

3) Certainly, that's one of the main objectives of the SSM

4) The expected armament is ESSM and SM2/3. At the moment there is a huge confusion whether the TF2000 will get the Aegis system or a similar local system from the Turkish military electronics producer Aselsan.

Aselsan's radar development roadmap:

2009--- SERDAR coastal surveillance radar (prototype finished, test stage)
2011--- TIHA SAR radar (design stage)
2012--- Ship watch- Fire control radar (design stage)
2012--- Air defence systems surveillance fire control radar (feasability study stage)
2014--- Satellite SAR radar (feasability study stage)
2016--- Multi Function Phased Array Radar System (planned)




 

Quwa

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So the Multi Function Phased Array Radar System for 2016...it's different from the medium-level radar being developed for MILGEM?
 
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asaad-ul-islam

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I pray that Turkey develops its own high-altitude SAMs, instead of fitting SM-2 on their DDGs. if they do go ahead with that, we can forget about future acquisitions, americans will never supply us with SM-2.

it appears that turkey is aiming for a destroyer in the arleigh burke/type 052C class. all the radar/sensor developments point that way.
 

Quwa

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Like MILGEM, I imagine the TF-2000 is supposed to be a modular design. As long as the electronics, sensors & radar are developed by Turkey, I think that is good enough. Beyond that it will fall upon Pakistan to secure long-range air defence systems of its own. I think the only area which we need to be concerned about is solid-propellant rocket-motors suitable for relatively compact missiles suitable for ship-based VLS. Perhaps using the Umkhonto-series as a baseline and doing some heavy improvements.

In any case, I am starting to think the whole MEKO issue revolves around the MEKO A200 FFG armed with at most MBDA Aster-15 SAAM & VL-MICA for AAW. H Khan's tone certainly suggested that the PN is looking at upto 6 of these ships to replace the Type-21s by 2021. It would be a cheaper option as the ship has already been built & tested...and based on the South African order (5 years to deliver), we can certainly acquire these ships by 2019. I hope TKMS convinces them towards at least the 3500t MEKO D!

We will probably see 4 more F-22P...and that would make the 14-frigate fleet by 2019. After that we should see the F-22P replaced by something like TF-100 and the fleet expanded to possibly 18 with 4 new AAW FFG? Possibly use TF-2000 as basis for this.
 
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asaad-ul-islam

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Like MILGEM, I imagine the TF-2000 is supposed to be a modular design. As long as the electronics, sensors & radar are developed by Turkey, I think that is good enough. Beyond that it will fall upon Pakistan to secure long-range air defence systems of its own. I think the only area which we need to be concerned about is solid-propellant rocket-motors suitable for relatively compact missiles suitable for ship-based VLS. If this area is realistically this difficult, then we could ask for assistance from MBDA in this specific area.
Pakistan stands a good chance at acquiring the Aster 15, I don't know about the Aster 30. That can fulfill the role of a medium-high altitude SAM, in the league of SM-2. though, I would always prefer chinese naval SAM's considering the fact that we are guaranteed their best material and technology transfer is likely to follow along. the naval version of the HQ-9 looks like a pretty good candidate.

It would be wise for Pakistani planners to cooperate with Turkey (more like beg them) for some stake in their radar/sensor development program. we need to jumpstart our electronic industry and I'm sure we can invite turkish electronic companies like Aselsan to set up R&D centers in Pakistan. NESCOM unfortunately, has bad industrial/corporate practices that leave hundreds of engineers jobless after one project is complete.

Instead of rushing to fix that problem, certain idiots in the establishment have chosen to continue their 'traditional ways' rather than adopting the proper and competitive industrial/corporate practice. Having more participation from the private sector can relieve us of the burden of jobless engineers and sensor architects. However, there is absolutely no private enterprise in Pakistan that can compare to Aselsan (forget private, we don't even have state-owned).

I hope one day we can develop our own high-altitude SAM, something that can be operated by all the services-instead of having one different system for each service-to ease up on logistics and our cash-strapped wallets. In the meanwhile, we can cooperate with our turkish brethren in radar development and sensor architecture (something we're good at). during this phase, we can also wait for NECOP, the Pakistani CETC thanks to China, to come out with a lot of stuff. CETC (largest chinese electronics company that develops radars/electronics) is set to invest $300 million, thanks to that MoU with China. I'm confident we can catch up pretty quickly with the turks and then pull ahead.

these final steps can lead to something similar to the Aegis system. Imagine large AAW destroyers, similar to Arleigh Burke class and type 052C, providing high-altitude air defense, while having some anti-ballistic and anti-satellite capabilities. everything is there and will be there if needed, of course, everything depends on how 'visionary' our planners are and whether they can see how all of these things tie up together.
 

Quwa

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I think we should work towards our own SM2, and I know you noticed...it is a physically smaller missile than HH-9. We can use existing concepts such as Umkhonto and Aster for a start, and continue building up from there. The key issue is solid-propellant technology that is compact, but gives us the necessary range and speed. Interesting to note is that Turkey's Roketsan seems to be an excellent partner...they're apparently developing their own ramjet technology! Once we get the right missile, I don't think seeker, guidance and ECM will be an incredible issue.

Even ToT for Aster-15 would be gold IMO. We should argue that besides an initial requirement for MEKO frigates, we plan on arming our MILGEM corvette, F-22P-replacement and command-control AAW FFGs in the future...that's like 30 ships. In the future, we can also adapt Aster-15 for use by PAF on land.
 
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asaad-ul-islam

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I think we should work towards our own SM2, and I know you noticed...it is a physically smaller missile than HH-9. We can use existing concepts such as Umkhonto and Aster for a start, and continue building up from there. The key issue is solid-propellant technology that is compact, but gives us the necessary range and speed. Interesting to note is that Turkey's Roketsan seems to be an excellent partner...they're apparently developing their own ramjet technology! Once we get the right missile, I don't think seeker, guidance and ECM will be an incredible issue.
Mark, I see one solution to all of Pakistan's problems, industrial espionage. we can always 'nab' certain material right under someone's nose, and trust me, you will be shocked on hearing what we've managed to do. now, there are reports of a certain BMD system arriving a nearby 'friendly' region:devil:

however, there are certain problems that lie in our way. first of all, we need manpower, researchers and engineers. I really can't say anything on this since my info is very limited, but assuming that we have Pakistani engineers working with the chinese on our future m*l*r/s, and we've managed to bring out some mean ballistic missiles, I don't see why we can't develop SAM's of our own. keep in mind, Pakistan went public with its tender for high-altitude SAMs a while ago. technology transfer was the main requirement, and two european offers were rejected because of that, leaving only the chinese option, HQ-9 or something even better.

Assuming we went along with the chinese on their offer, we may already have a few hundred engineers in Chengu and other places working specifically on SAM systems. rest assured, the main "gamechanging" things have been procured, it's only willpower and direction we lack.
 

Nutuk

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So the Multi Function Phased Array Radar System for 2016...it's different from the medium-level radar being developed for MILGEM?
Aselsan finished a prototype of a 3D search radar and in test phase, however this radar is not on time for the first Milgem prototype.

The EADS TRS-3D is chosen to function on the 1st prototype Milgem.

On the Multi Function Phased Array Radar System it is still unclear whether this radar is intended for the TF2000 or TF100, because for the TF2000 the SSM concidered the US AEGIS system to my knowledge.
 

Quwa

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asaad-ul-islam

We'll see bro. At the end of the day we will most certainly get HQ-9 for the land-based air defence, just not sure about naval. If we get it with ToT, then we can apply further improvements as years go by, especially in terms of range, speed and G-maneuvers. Presently the PLA is fielding a lot of HQ-9A systems alongside their existing S-300PMU. Preferably I would like to see Pakistan acquire the S-400, perhaps a joint-order with Turkey.

I personally think we may see a parallel SAM for surface ships for the ease of physical logistics (transport at sea), weight and development of universal-VLS like Mk.41. Theoretically speaking, the development of a long-range SAM is very much possible using even the Umkhonto-series...but it will mostly depend on our solid-propellant rocket technology. Even if we accomplish a range of 100km and altitude of 20km, that is good for the naval-arena; and this system can be applied on land as a medium to long-range system.

Come to think of it...if PN does acquire MEKO, then for its short to medium-range it may be able to get the IRIS-T SL-naval presently under development. An export-centric system, we may be able to acquire ToT or use it as a basis for a long-range system in the future.
 
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Myth_buster_1

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Even ToT for Aster-15 would be gold IMO. We should argue that besides an initial requirement for MEKO frigates, we plan on arming our MILGEM corvette, F-22P-replacement and command-control AAW FFGs in the future...that's like 30 ships. In the future, we can also adapt Aster-15 for use by PAF on land.

for god sake F-22 did not even enter in service and here we are talking of pashing out in 2020-30? such a short service? probibly OHP frigates might be the one we should be talking about.
 

Quwa

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for god sake F-22 did not even enter in service and here we are talking of pashing out in 2020-30? such a short service? probibly OHP frigates might be the one we should be talking about.
By 2030 there isn't a whole lot we could do with F-22P, would be a waste of resources to operate. Besides, 15-20 years of operate and then phase-out is pretty normal, check out how our Type-21s from RN service.
 

Myth_buster_1

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By 2030 there isn't a whole lot we could do with F-22P, would be a waste of resources to operate. Besides, 15-20 years of operate and then phase-out is pretty normal, check out how our Type-21s from RN service.

Pakistan is not UK and certinaly low budget navy can not afford to phase out frigates just in 15-20 years, heck even Type-21 will have more services time and lol OHP frigates will stay more then 10-15 years! F-22P does have a role in PN beyond 2020 either as a coastal defence frigate or training platform.

BTW did any one catch talk show on PTV regarding recent naval tanker induction in PN? they had very interesting descisions on this matter, naval stars were talking about JV with friendly countries of Frigates, missiles boats, subs etc.
 
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asaad-ul-islam

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PC, the main reason for the acquisition of F-22P, is to improve and expand our ship-building capabilities. Ironically, in 1993, KSEW built a ship for China. Now look at what a mess our country has been? there has been absolutely no technological development for ages, until recently. let's hope it continues that way, and eventually we may look at the production of huge tankers and large frigates. There are also plans for private shipyards in other ports besides Karachi, which may participate in building warships and taking the load off of KSEW, insha'Allah.

Currently, we've built quite a few small ships, most recently a small tanker-cum-utility ship (STUS) (see Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily] )

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5426/4605c6751ab35ae0cd108fbgl5.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7517/7b46c123f907e6d511536b4km0.jpg
 

Pk_Thunder

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PC, the main reason for the acquisition of F-22P, is to improve and expand our ship-building capabilities. Ironically, in 1993, KSEW built a ship for China. Now look at what a mess our country has been? there has been absolutely no technological development for ages, until recently. let's hope it continues that way, and eventually we may look at the production of huge tankers and large frigates. There are also plans for private shipyards in other ports besides Karachi, which may participate in building warships and taking the load off of KSEW, insha'Allah.

Currently, we've built quite a few small ships, most recently a small tanker-cum-utility ship (STUS) (see Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily] )

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5426/4605c6751ab35ae0cd108fbgl5.jpg
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7517/7b46c123f907e6d511536b4km0.jpg

TO make it easy for all:)


Shipbuilding industry to be developed on grand scale: Gilani launches 'tanker-cum-utility' ship project

RECORDER REPORT
KARACHI (January 13 2009): Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani has said that the government has adopted a 'vision' for new shipyards and development of shipbuilding industry on a grand scale. He said that the government would move in this direction at a very fast pace, and added: "Together, we will ensure that Pakistan becomes a leading shipbuilding country in the region, in line with its true potential and ideal location".

He was speaking here on Monday at the launching ceremony of Stus No 1--first small 'Tanker-cum-Utility' ship, being built by Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW) for Pakistan Navy. Federal Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Jatoi, Naval Chief Admiral Noman Bashir, Sindh Governor Ishrat-ul Ibad Khan, Chief Minister Qaim Ali Shah and high officials of Pakistan Navy and KSEW were also present on this occasion.

The Prime Minister said that the shipbuilding is an industry which can act as a catalyst for overall industrial development, leading to economic development, large-scale employment generation and poverty alleviation. "This is a labour-intensive industry, and is best suited for developing countries like Pakistan," he added.

He said that Pakistan has a great commercially strategic location at the mouth of the Persian Gulf and abundance of hardworking manpower, best suited for shipbuilding industry. "We need to take advantage of these strengths", he said, and added that all people involved in the shipbuilding industry "have a great future and prospects" ahead of them.

He urged each and every individual, working in KSEW, or related with these activities, to work with dedication for the progress of KSEW and the shipbuilding industry in the country. The Prime Minister said that the KSEW is a national asset and is contributing tremendously in fulfilling the country's naval defence requirements as well as requirements of the country's maritime sector.

"It is a very important component of the Ministry of Defence Production and, with every event like the one today, the government feels ever more confident." Gilani, much impressed by the turnout of Karachi Shipyard in such a short span of time, said: "Today, the entire yard is buzzing with activity, and it proves that with will and dedication, challenging tasks can easily be achieved."

He congratulated Karachi Shipyard management for early achievement of launching milestone, and appreciated the efforts of its architects, engineers and workers involved to accomplish the prestigious task. He noted that the project was progressing ahead of planned schedule.

He said that this is a remarkable achievement and speaks volumes of the new vigour and zeal in KSEW. He expressed hope that with this speedy pace of construction, these new ships would join Pakistan Navy fleet earlier than the scheduled time and thus contribute in enhancing PN Fleet's capabilities. He said that it would go a long way in establishing credibility of Karachi Shipyard as a reliable builder with assured timely deliveries of cost-effective and quality ships.

The Prime Minister also appreciated Pakistan Navy in supporting and reposing trust in indigenous construction of ships and submarines at Karachi Shipyard. He urged the country's maritime sector, including ports, to do the same and have their ships built here, as a matter of preference, and contribute in strengthening the country's shipbuilding sector, rather than seeking foreign options.

Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works Managing Director Vice Admiral Iftikhar Ahmed Rao briefed the Prime Minister about the significance of the first Small Tanker Cum Utility ship.

He said that two ships of this type were being built by KSEW for Pakistan Navy at a cost of $11 million each. The first ship of this series was launched on Monday, while both ships would be completed by February, 2010. It was the first shipbuilding project at KSEW after 1993, when Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto inaugurated a ship built by KSEW for China.

Adm Iftikhar said that the KSEW was becoming a sick industry. "However, this important shipbuilding organisation is once again reviving, and its performance is increasing to play its due role in the shipbuilding sector".

He said that replenishment to ships at anchor and in the harbour, logistic support and transfer of personnel to and from coastal stations, act as an attendant vessel during diving operations, towed array transportation, mine laying, mine recovery and torpedo recovery are the primary roles of these ships.

About secondary roles of these ships, he said that these are target towing vessels for surface practice by ships, and salvage operations. These are attendant vessels and for training, search and rescue, and port operations.

The KSEW is the only heavy engineering industry of the country that is catering for shipbuilding, ship repairing and heavy/general engineering requirements. It has played a historical role in transferring of technology and broadening the industrial base of the country. KSEW was established in mid-fifties as a project of PIDC, and was incorporated as a public limited company in 1957.

This company is entirely owned by the government of Pakistan, and is managed by a Board of Directors, headed by Chief of the Naval Staff. Situated on West Wharf, Karachi, and spread over an area of 29 hectares (71 acres,. KSEW has large shipbuilding halls, three shipbuilding berths, two dry docks, fabrication shop, a well-equipped machine shop, and other supporting facilities like carpentry, pipe fitting and light steel fabrication, etc. KSEW is working as an autonomous commercial organisation under the Ministry of Defence Production.
 

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