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Turkish Airpower has a Fifth Generation Aircraft Problem

azbaroj

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Turkish Airpower has a Fifth Generation Aircraft Problem.
Turkey was a partner and co producer of F-35. I don't know if it was a creazy move or not by Turkey to get out by US from the F-35 program for acquired of S- 400 System which is yet to be activated and it's future is uncertain. So it can be said that right now Turkey is away from the benefits of both F-35 or S 400 when badly needed the strongest Airpower.
This article nicely described the present dilemma of F-35 and S-400 and also TF-X engine problem.

Turkish Airpower has a Fifth Generation Aircraft Problem.
By: Can Kasapoglu
Executive Summary: Major NATO nations have already begun receiving fifth generation aircraft, while some others, such as France and Germany, have preferred temporarily flying with 4.5 generation platforms in order to make a long jump directly into sixth generation airpower in the coming decades. Against this backdrop, Turkey is in serious trouble. Its exclusion from the F-35 consortium has impaired Ankara’s pitch badly. In addition, engine problems with the indigenous stealth fighter project, Milli Muharip Uçak, will likely deprive the Turkish Air Force of state-of-the-art platforms for at least a decade and perhaps even longer. The fourth generation F-16s will keep forming the backbone of Turkey’s airpower in the 2020s, marking a comparative handicap. Finally, Turkey’s mini-aircraft carrier plans, centered on the forthcoming amphibious assault vessel TCG Anadolu, can remain stillborn in the absence of an additional procurement of the F-35B short take-off/vertical landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter. Overall, Turkey’s burgeoning defense sector has worked miracles with unmanned systems, however, the manned aircraft segment is set to suffer from crippled wings before it can take off.
Introduction
Combat aircraft generational categorization remains a key parameter in airpower and defense strategy assessments. At present, the fifth generation platforms, for example, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, have already introduced a new reality to battle-spaces. The aircraft come with game changing capabilities, such as boosted data fusion in network-centric warfare, stealth features, and advanced multi-spectral sensors. Overall, these novelties go beyond traditional kinematic calculus and manifest in real battle networks flying high even in hostile airspaces. Apart from the fifth generation, some stopgap options fall under the hybrid 4.5 generation, or 4++, categories, such as the Eurofighter Typhoon, F/A -18 E/F Super Hornet, and JAS-39 Gripen. These aircraft differ from the legacy fourth generation, for example, the F-16, with their active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, advanced computers suitable for network-centric battle management systems, and low observable aspects (The Royal Australian Air Force, January 2012).
Against this backdrop, Turkey is to face a significant airpower challenge in the 2020s. Following the nation’s exclusion from the F-35 consortium due to the procurement of the S-400 strategic air defense system from Moscow, and given the present timeframe and expected problems with the indigenous fighter aircraft program Milli Muharip Uçak (or MMU, formerly known as the TF-X), the Turkish Air Force will, for at least a decade, not be able to operate any fifth generation platform. Furthermore, amid problematic defense economics plaguing the entire world due to the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, the chances are slim for Turkey to acquire a quick, convenient 4.5 generation stopgap to augment its arsenal. Overall, the air force will have to rely on the fourth generation F-16s—albeit with certain important modernization features in some advanced blocs—to form the backbone of its doctrinal order of battle. In addition, the Turkish Navy’s plans to operate an air-wing of the F-35Bs, of the short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) variant, to embark on what was supposed to be a mini-aircraft carrier, TCG Anadolu, might mark a stillborn story.
Ankara’s airpower challenge is waiting for a talismanic touch, if such a way out exists. Many NATO nations are already flying fifth generation aircraft. And those who prefer to skip the fifth generation frenzy, favoring a long jump directly to the sixth generation like the Franco-German Future Combat Air System, have 4.5 generation stopgaps like the Eurofighter Typhoon (Deutsche Welle, February 7, 2019; RUSI, February 11, 2014).
Can Turkey Mitigate the F-35 Loss?
News stories suggest that Ankara could try an eclectic roadmap to compensate for—or minimize, to be more correct—operational shortcomings emanating from its exclusion from the F-35 program. The first measure would be relieving the burden of air-ground roles of the F-16s, which form the backbone of the Turkish airpower deterrent and will commence retirement in the 2030s. To do so, Turkey can opt for buying some time for its F-4 2020 fighter-bombers—around 30 aircraft—by postponing their retirement through a careful maintenance plan. Another idea promoted in the Turkish press is boosting the Akinci heavy drone and Hürkuş-C light attack aircraft into serial production, as they await entry into service, to assume ground-attack roles (Yeni Şafak, July 18, 2019).
Higher operational-class Akinci, produced by Baykar, which also manufactures Turkey’s battle-hardened ‘Pantsir hunter’ Bayraktar TB-2 tactical drone, will have an impressive combat payload of some 1,350 kilograms. Such a capacity will enable the platform to carry some heavy munitions, including the indigenous air-launched cruise missile SOM and smart joint direct attack munitions (JDAM) along with advanced sensors. Combined with its 24 hour-long endurance, Akinci can relieve some of the manned aircraft’s burden in air-ground missions (Baykar). In tandem, Hürkuş-C light-attack aircraft is designed to carry 12.7 and 20mm guns and a variety of air-ground munitions along with some protection such as armored structures and countermeasures against man-portable air defenses (TUSAS). Turkey’s forthcoming light-attack aircraft can provide close air-support in relatively safer airspaces.
In a live, public webinar in May 2020, Turkey’s procurement chief, Professor Ismail Demir, provided some hints as to Turkey’s airpower roadmap. Professor Demir highlighted some critical considerations. First, he ruled out an off-the-shelf 4.5 (or 4++) generation aircraft procurement as a stopgap before Turkey operates its indigenous fifth generation Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU), designed in cooperation with BAE Systems (YouTube, May 29). This remark was important because, when asked about the prospects of a Russian Su-35 acquisition back in 2019, Demir remarked that the aircraft could only be a stopgap measure (Yeni Safak, September 4, 2019). Interestingly, last year, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu even stated that Ankara could opt for Su-34 Russian tactical bombers—of course, it is likely this was a slip of the tongue and he meant to reference the Su-35 (Anadolu Agency, April 4, 2019).
Second, Demir said that Turkey’s forthcoming fifth generation fighter, the MMU, will enter into service in several different blocs. In doing so, the initial MMU variants will likely be slightly below the fifth generation standards (YouTube, May 29).
Mini-Aircraft Carrier Plans Falling Through?
In fact, Turkey’s original F-35 acquisition plan was centered on 100 platforms of the conventional variant, the F-35A. However, back in November 2018, the Turkish press reported that the navy was preparing to operate the STOVL variant, the F-35B, to embark on the forthcoming amphibious assault vessel, TCG Anadolu. With this capability, Turkey was to operate the flagship as a mini-aircraft carrier (Yeni Şafak, November 9, 2018). Notably, in December 2018, President Erdogan remarked that Turkey had been gearing up to acquire 120 F-35s instead of the planned 100 (Haberturk, December 16, 2018). Meaningfully, in the IDEF-2019 exhibition, a small-scale make-up of the vessel was showcased with F-35s embarked on its deck (YouTube, May 4). TCG Anadolu, still under construction at the time of writing, already went through certain modifications in accordance with the mini-aircraft carrier goal, including a ski-jump (CNNTurk, February 1).
Based on the Spanish Juan Carlos-1 class, TCG Anadolu will bring an unprecedented blue-water capability to the Turkish Navy. Thanks to its capacity to carry a small air-wing of STOVL aircraft, the Spanish Navy officially considers ‘aircraft carrier substitution’ to be one of the core missions of the Juan Carlos-1 class along with marine operations, power projection, and humanitarian tasks (The Spanish Navy). In tandem, the Turkish Navy’s assessments draw attention to the vessel’s ability to carry an embarked air-wing as a critical feature in close air-support to amphibious assaults as well as anti-air warfare (The Turkish Navy, February 2, 2019).
The F-35B remains the only alternative in serial production to form an air-wing for TCG Anadolu. In the absence of such capability, Turkey will only have an amphibious assault vessel, not a mini-aircraft carrier. The Australians operate their ships in kind, with the Canberra-class based on the Juan Carlos-1, solely as amphibious assets without going for the carrier option (Aksam, November 25, 2019). The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, however, prefers embarking its F-35Bs on its Izumo-class helicopter carriers (Japan Times, May 23, 2019). Therefore, theoretically, both ways are possible for Turkey’s TCG Anadolu. Yet, given the growing expeditionary posture of the Turkish military, an operational mini-aircraft carrier would still mark a significant difference in capabilities over the coming years. The Libyan campaign’s trajectory, for example, could have gone in a drastically different direction had Turkey possessed such a game changing overseas deep-strike capacity.
An idea promoted by Turkish defense planners is to translate the successful ‘dronization’ trend into naval aviation and equip the next Turkish flagship’s future air-wing with new unmanned systems (TRT Haber, June 11). Nevertheless, no known unmanned capability can replace the F-35B.
Tough Years on the Horizon
Turkey’s initial plan was to begin operating the F-35s by now, and in the meantime, develop its own national combat aircraft. While the former fell through, the latter now has to overcome problematic defense economics and a particular technology problem associated with developing the engine for such a sophisticated platform. Overall, the Turkish Air Force now faces the risk of falling short of becoming a fifth generation aircraft operator even by the early 2030s. Although Turkey’s defense technological and industrial base has been working miracles with unmanned systems, the manned aircraft segment is in serious trouble.
The 2020s and even 2030s might prove to be difficult years for Turkish airpower. At present, the Turkish Air Force’s most modern fighters and multirole platforms are the modernized F-16 variants. Last year, ASELSAN, a Turkish defense corporation, kicked-off an ambitious modernization project to equip these aircraft with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars (Anadolu Agency, March 24, 2019). But again, Turkey’s current airpower remains a textbook fourth generation one and the situation is unlikely to change soon. Even in optimistic scenarios, Turkey’s indigenous fifth generation fighter will not enter into service until at least the 2030s. Besides, even if the Turkish administration manages to somehow secure a miraculous 4.5 generation stopgap procurement, the F-35’s unmatched information superiority cannot be replaced by any known multirole platform. Finally, the Turkish defense ecosystem will keep suffering from the inauspicious exodus from a multi-billion-dollar project, broad co-production advantages, and a real breakthrough in technological know-how. Bizarrely enough, Turkey has risked a joint production, fifth generation aircraft project for an off-the-shelf Russian SAM system purchase with no technology transfer or co-production option anywhere in sight.

https://jamestown.org/program/hot-issue-turkish-airpower-has-a-fifth-generation-aircraft-problem/
 

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Turkish Airpower has a Fifth Generation Aircraft Problem.
Turkey was a partner and co producer of F-35. I don't know if it was a creazy move or not by Turkey to get out by US from the F-35 program for acquired of S- 400 System which is yet to be activated and it's future is uncertain. So it can be said that right now Turkey is away from the benefits of both F-35 or S 400 when badly needed the strongest Airpower.
This article nicely described the present dilemma of F-35 and S-400 and also TF-X engine problem.

Turkish Airpower has a Fifth Generation Aircraft Problem.
By: Can Kasapoglu
Executive Summary: Major NATO nations have already begun receiving fifth generation aircraft, while some others, such as France and Germany, have preferred temporarily flying with 4.5 generation platforms in order to make a long jump directly into sixth generation airpower in the coming decades. Against this backdrop, Turkey is in serious trouble. Its exclusion from the F-35 consortium has impaired Ankara’s pitch badly. In addition, engine problems with the indigenous stealth fighter project, Milli Muharip Uçak, will likely deprive the Turkish Air Force of state-of-the-art platforms for at least a decade and perhaps even longer. The fourth generation F-16s will keep forming the backbone of Turkey’s airpower in the 2020s, marking a comparative handicap. Finally, Turkey’s mini-aircraft carrier plans, centered on the forthcoming amphibious assault vessel TCG Anadolu, can remain stillborn in the absence of an additional procurement of the F-35B short take-off/vertical landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter. Overall, Turkey’s burgeoning defense sector has worked miracles with unmanned systems, however, the manned aircraft segment is set to suffer from crippled wings before it can take off.
Introduction
Combat aircraft generational categorization remains a key parameter in airpower and defense strategy assessments. At present, the fifth generation platforms, for example, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, have already introduced a new reality to battle-spaces. The aircraft come with game changing capabilities, such as boosted data fusion in network-centric warfare, stealth features, and advanced multi-spectral sensors. Overall, these novelties go beyond traditional kinematic calculus and manifest in real battle networks flying high even in hostile airspaces. Apart from the fifth generation, some stopgap options fall under the hybrid 4.5 generation, or 4++, categories, such as the Eurofighter Typhoon, F/A -18 E/F Super Hornet, and JAS-39 Gripen. These aircraft differ from the legacy fourth generation, for example, the F-16, with their active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, advanced computers suitable for network-centric battle management systems, and low observable aspects (The Royal Australian Air Force, January 2012).
Against this backdrop, Turkey is to face a significant airpower challenge in the 2020s. Following the nation’s exclusion from the F-35 consortium due to the procurement of the S-400 strategic air defense system from Moscow, and given the present timeframe and expected problems with the indigenous fighter aircraft program Milli Muharip Uçak (or MMU, formerly known as the TF-X), the Turkish Air Force will, for at least a decade, not be able to operate any fifth generation platform. Furthermore, amid problematic defense economics plaguing the entire world due to the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, the chances are slim for Turkey to acquire a quick, convenient 4.5 generation stopgap to augment its arsenal. Overall, the air force will have to rely on the fourth generation F-16s—albeit with certain important modernization features in some advanced blocs—to form the backbone of its doctrinal order of battle. In addition, the Turkish Navy’s plans to operate an air-wing of the F-35Bs, of the short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) variant, to embark on what was supposed to be a mini-aircraft carrier, TCG Anadolu, might mark a stillborn story.
Ankara’s airpower challenge is waiting for a talismanic touch, if such a way out exists. Many NATO nations are already flying fifth generation aircraft. And those who prefer to skip the fifth generation frenzy, favoring a long jump directly to the sixth generation like the Franco-German Future Combat Air System, have 4.5 generation stopgaps like the Eurofighter Typhoon (Deutsche Welle, February 7, 2019; RUSI, February 11, 2014).
Can Turkey Mitigate the F-35 Loss?
News stories suggest that Ankara could try an eclectic roadmap to compensate for—or minimize, to be more correct—operational shortcomings emanating from its exclusion from the F-35 program. The first measure would be relieving the burden of air-ground roles of the F-16s, which form the backbone of the Turkish airpower deterrent and will commence retirement in the 2030s. To do so, Turkey can opt for buying some time for its F-4 2020 fighter-bombers—around 30 aircraft—by postponing their retirement through a careful maintenance plan. Another idea promoted in the Turkish press is boosting the Akinci heavy drone and Hürkuş-C light attack aircraft into serial production, as they await entry into service, to assume ground-attack roles (Yeni Şafak, July 18, 2019).
Higher operational-class Akinci, produced by Baykar, which also manufactures Turkey’s battle-hardened ‘Pantsir hunter’ Bayraktar TB-2 tactical drone, will have an impressive combat payload of some 1,350 kilograms. Such a capacity will enable the platform to carry some heavy munitions, including the indigenous air-launched cruise missile SOM and smart joint direct attack munitions (JDAM) along with advanced sensors. Combined with its 24 hour-long endurance, Akinci can relieve some of the manned aircraft’s burden in air-ground missions (Baykar). In tandem, Hürkuş-C light-attack aircraft is designed to carry 12.7 and 20mm guns and a variety of air-ground munitions along with some protection such as armored structures and countermeasures against man-portable air defenses (TUSAS). Turkey’s forthcoming light-attack aircraft can provide close air-support in relatively safer airspaces.
In a live, public webinar in May 2020, Turkey’s procurement chief, Professor Ismail Demir, provided some hints as to Turkey’s airpower roadmap. Professor Demir highlighted some critical considerations. First, he ruled out an off-the-shelf 4.5 (or 4++) generation aircraft procurement as a stopgap before Turkey operates its indigenous fifth generation Milli Muharip Uçak (MMU), designed in cooperation with BAE Systems (YouTube, May 29). This remark was important because, when asked about the prospects of a Russian Su-35 acquisition back in 2019, Demir remarked that the aircraft could only be a stopgap measure (Yeni Safak, September 4, 2019). Interestingly, last year, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu even stated that Ankara could opt for Su-34 Russian tactical bombers—of course, it is likely this was a slip of the tongue and he meant to reference the Su-35 (Anadolu Agency, April 4, 2019).
Second, Demir said that Turkey’s forthcoming fifth generation fighter, the MMU, will enter into service in several different blocs. In doing so, the initial MMU variants will likely be slightly below the fifth generation standards (YouTube, May 29).
Mini-Aircraft Carrier Plans Falling Through?
In fact, Turkey’s original F-35 acquisition plan was centered on 100 platforms of the conventional variant, the F-35A. However, back in November 2018, the Turkish press reported that the navy was preparing to operate the STOVL variant, the F-35B, to embark on the forthcoming amphibious assault vessel, TCG Anadolu. With this capability, Turkey was to operate the flagship as a mini-aircraft carrier (Yeni Şafak, November 9, 2018). Notably, in December 2018, President Erdogan remarked that Turkey had been gearing up to acquire 120 F-35s instead of the planned 100 (Haberturk, December 16, 2018). Meaningfully, in the IDEF-2019 exhibition, a small-scale make-up of the vessel was showcased with F-35s embarked on its deck (YouTube, May 4). TCG Anadolu, still under construction at the time of writing, already went through certain modifications in accordance with the mini-aircraft carrier goal, including a ski-jump (CNNTurk, February 1).
Based on the Spanish Juan Carlos-1 class, TCG Anadolu will bring an unprecedented blue-water capability to the Turkish Navy. Thanks to its capacity to carry a small air-wing of STOVL aircraft, the Spanish Navy officially considers ‘aircraft carrier substitution’ to be one of the core missions of the Juan Carlos-1 class along with marine operations, power projection, and humanitarian tasks (The Spanish Navy). In tandem, the Turkish Navy’s assessments draw attention to the vessel’s ability to carry an embarked air-wing as a critical feature in close air-support to amphibious assaults as well as anti-air warfare (The Turkish Navy, February 2, 2019).
The F-35B remains the only alternative in serial production to form an air-wing for TCG Anadolu. In the absence of such capability, Turkey will only have an amphibious assault vessel, not a mini-aircraft carrier. The Australians operate their ships in kind, with the Canberra-class based on the Juan Carlos-1, solely as amphibious assets without going for the carrier option (Aksam, November 25, 2019). The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, however, prefers embarking its F-35Bs on its Izumo-class helicopter carriers (Japan Times, May 23, 2019). Therefore, theoretically, both ways are possible for Turkey’s TCG Anadolu. Yet, given the growing expeditionary posture of the Turkish military, an operational mini-aircraft carrier would still mark a significant difference in capabilities over the coming years. The Libyan campaign’s trajectory, for example, could have gone in a drastically different direction had Turkey possessed such a game changing overseas deep-strike capacity.
An idea promoted by Turkish defense planners is to translate the successful ‘dronization’ trend into naval aviation and equip the next Turkish flagship’s future air-wing with new unmanned systems (TRT Haber, June 11). Nevertheless, no known unmanned capability can replace the F-35B.
Tough Years on the Horizon
Turkey’s initial plan was to begin operating the F-35s by now, and in the meantime, develop its own national combat aircraft. While the former fell through, the latter now has to overcome problematic defense economics and a particular technology problem associated with developing the engine for such a sophisticated platform. Overall, the Turkish Air Force now faces the risk of falling short of becoming a fifth generation aircraft operator even by the early 2030s. Although Turkey’s defense technological and industrial base has been working miracles with unmanned systems, the manned aircraft segment is in serious trouble.
The 2020s and even 2030s might prove to be difficult years for Turkish airpower. At present, the Turkish Air Force’s most modern fighters and multirole platforms are the modernized F-16 variants. Last year, ASELSAN, a Turkish defense corporation, kicked-off an ambitious modernization project to equip these aircraft with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars (Anadolu Agency, March 24, 2019). But again, Turkey’s current airpower remains a textbook fourth generation one and the situation is unlikely to change soon. Even in optimistic scenarios, Turkey’s indigenous fifth generation fighter will not enter into service until at least the 2030s. Besides, even if the Turkish administration manages to somehow secure a miraculous 4.5 generation stopgap procurement, the F-35’s unmatched information superiority cannot be replaced by any known multirole platform. Finally, the Turkish defense ecosystem will keep suffering from the inauspicious exodus from a multi-billion-dollar project, broad co-production advantages, and a real breakthrough in technological know-how. Bizarrely enough, Turkey has risked a joint production, fifth generation aircraft project for an off-the-shelf Russian SAM system purchase with no technology transfer or co-production option anywhere in sight.

https://jamestown.org/program/hot-issue-turkish-airpower-has-a-fifth-generation-aircraft-problem/

Bizarrely enough, Turkey has risked a joint production, fifth generation aircraft project for an off-the-shelf Russian SAM system purchase with no technology transfer or co-production option anywhere in sight.

A big mistake -
if turkey would at least be able to set up, produce, copy (china with s300) an AD system that is so superior that the F35, F22, F15, Dessault Rafael F4 of our enemies could not pose any danger, with a radar so advanced that one could impose a no-fly zone on neighboring countries, from their own territory, then all this would not be so tragic... but as it is now, we have simply lost... first we trusted the west and lost, now we trusted the east and were betrayed as well...lose-lose situation
 

LittleFish

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We must admit it is beyond the capability to independently develop a 5-gen fighter for countries other than the Big Fives, or to be more openly, for all countries except the US. You need to invest tens of billions of $$ and have peak technologies (especially engines) to develop a 5-gen fighter, which is too hard for most of countries. US technological hegemony is always powerful, and the situation will only be worse.

Our J-20 is bothered by the engines and WS-15 has to take another 5-10 years to be introduced, and currently only are installed with WS-10 for workaround.
Russian Su-57 has flaws in stealth and avionics and is only a 4++++.
European countries select to buy F-35.
France is yet to develop one, not to mention Sweden.
Korean KF-X is only a 4.5 gen and it is still beyond their capability without involving L&M in
TF-X is even in worse situaion than KF-X after RR quited and US put sanctions on Turkey.
Indian said AMCA would come out in 3-5 years, but I don't quite believe their speed.

Engines is the most crucial part for a new fighter.

Current available high-thrust engine: US F-135/F-119 > RU 117S > US F110/F100 / RU AL-31F / CN WS-10
In development: RU Product 30 / CN WS-15. will be the same level (or even a little inferior to) as F-119/F-135, and take at least 5~10 years to be mature.
For a heavy 5-gen fighter, you need F-119/WS-15/Product 30 class engine, which are only produced by US.

Current available mid-thrust engine: UK EJ200/US F-414> US F-404 / RU RD93 / FR M88 > CN WS-13
Our new mid-thrust engine is still under development and won't come out in years. Even France and Russia don't have a matching one with RR/GE. The gap is there.

In fact, the only options for a 5-gen fighter are F-119/F-135/F-414/EJ-200. Even minor performance loss is acceptable, choices are only above. In short, US controls the engine of 5-gen fighter, and its position is even not challenged.


So F-35 can be used as an ultimate political tool by US --- if you don't follow US interest, you will not have 5-gen fighter.
Turkey is kicked out from F-35, even though it is a co-founder of F-35 program.
GCC countries are full of money but they cannot by F35, while Israel become the first foreign user of F-35 without even being a co-founder.

Turkey needs a real 5-gen fighter rather than just-so-so 4.5 or 4++ or 4++++ or whatever toys, since there will be more F-35 operators in its neighborhood. I bet Turkey will go back to F-35 in the future, of course at some political cost.
 
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LittleFish

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Bizarrely enough, Turkey has risked a joint production, fifth generation aircraft project for an off-the-shelf Russian SAM system purchase with no technology transfer or co-production option anywhere in sight.

A big mistake -
if turkey would at least be able to set up, produce, copy (china with s300) an AD system that is so superior that the F35, F22, F15, Dessault Rafael F4 of our enemies could not pose any danger, with a radar so advanced that one could impose a no-fly zone on neighboring countries, from their own territory, then all this would not be so tragic... but as it is now, we have simply lost... first we trusted the west and lost, now we trusted the east and were betrayed as well...lose-lose situation
SAM is not almighty in air defense. Active defense with fighters is necessary, passive air defense won't work solely.
 

azbaroj

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Bizarrely enough, Turkey has risked a joint production, fifth generation aircraft project for an off-the-shelf Russian SAM system purchase with no technology transfer or co-production option anywhere in sight.

A big mistake -
if turkey would at least be able to set up, produce, copy (china with s300) an AD system that is so superior that the F35, F22, F15, Dessault Rafael F4 of our enemies could not pose any danger, with a radar so advanced that one could impose a no-fly zone on neighboring countries, from their own territory, then all this would not be so tragic... but as it is now, we have simply lost... first we trusted the west and lost, now we trusted the east and were betrayed as well...lose-lose situation
Brother, S-300 or even S-400 is not an answer to the 5th generation Aircraft. Hope Hishar O or A or Co produced S 300 will be very good AD systems. but when your enemy has 4.5 or 5th generation fighters, you can't fight with them with your aging F-16 fleet.
Further more if Turkey were with F-35 project, it has a chance to know how about F-35 tech and TAF would be unbeatable in the region.
Which engine is Turkey going to use in its TF-X fighter plane?
 

LittleFish

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Brother, S-300 or even S-400 is not an answer to the 5th generation Aircraft. Hope Hishar O or A or Co produced S 300 will be very good AD systems. but when your enemy has 4.5 or 5th generation fighters, you can't fight with them with your aging F-16 fleet.
Further more if Turkey were with F-35 project, it has a chance to know how about F-35 tech and TAF would be unbeatable in the region.
Which engine is Turkey going to use in its TF-X fighter plane?
Choices are so limited since they have ruled out the US/UK :what: Only choice is Russian ones.
 

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Brother, S-300 or even S-400 is not an answer to the 5th generation Aircraft. Hope Hishar O or A or Co produced S 300 will be very good AD systems. but when your enemy has 4.5 or 5th generation fighters, you can't fight with them with your aging F-16 fleet.
Further more if Turkey were with F-35 project, it has a chance to know how about F-35 tech and TAF would be unbeatable in the region.
Which engine is Turkey going to use in its TF-X fighter plane?
We can just hope for Turkey to make a miracle - some sort of copying and updating the F16 F110-GE-100 engines to some kind of F110-GE-132 ...if that is possible, but I doubt it...
since RR won't turn back to the negotiating table because of the US...

As far as I have the information from the news etc, we have no access to the necessary engines. RR is out because of pressure from the USA ... France? really? Russia is associated with too many risks, and on many fronts, we are in conflict with them and cannot trust them - China would not be an option and has its own problems ...
I would say - Saab would be an alternative for us, but here the EU would stand in the way too...

The fact is: our western ENEMIES (finally plain text here - the radical Kemalists may not say so) do not want Turkey to have sovereignty over the eastern Mediterranean - resources, geopolitics, Israel - we will face serious problems in our near future... real talk... no place to be optimistic here... I can hope for ASELSAN to hurry with the AESA radar to lift our F16 fleet up to near 4,5... but that is all we have... nothing more...


Choices are so limited since they have ruled out the US/UK :what: Only choice is Russian ones.
We didn't rule out anybody lmfao

SAM is not almighty in air defense. Active defense with fighters is necessary, passive air defense won't work solely.
a high end Hisar O or U would be still more effective than an old F16/B30
 

Indos

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We can just hope for Turkey to make a miracle - some sort of copying and updating the F16 F110-GE-100 engines to some kind of F110-GE-132 ...if that is possible, but I doubt it...
since RR won't turn back to the negotiating table because of the US...

As far as I have the information from the news etc, we have no access to the necessary engines. RR is out because of pressure from the USA ... France? really? Russia is associated with too many risks, and on many fronts, we are in conflict with them and cannot trust them - China would not be an option and has its own problems ...
I would say - Saab would be an alternative for us, but here the EU would stand in the way too...

The fact is: our western ENEMIES (finally plain text here - the radical Kemalists may not say so) do not want Turkey to have sovereignty over the eastern Mediterranean - resources, geopolitics, Israel - we will face serious problems in our near future... real talk... no place to be optimistic here... I can hope for ASELSAN to hurry with the AESA radar to lift our F16 fleet up to near 4,5... but that is all we have... nothing more...




We didn't rule out anybody lmfao



a high end Hisar O or U would be still more effective than an old F16/B30
If I am Turkish President I will focus on engine first. Put a lot of money for the engine. Hijack engineers from RR/GE/etc. Pay them a lot of money and with pension promise.

TFX can wait, just build Hurjet first and get experience from that. Turkish can buy KFX (if the program is success) or Chinese J 35 while waiting for the engine development.
 

LittleFish

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If I am Turkish President I will focus on engine first. Put a lot of money for the engine. Hijack engineers from RR/GE/etc. Pay them a lot of money and with pension promise.

TFX can wait, just build Hurjet first and get experience from that. Turkish can buy KFX (if the program is success) while waiting for the engine development.
Engine design is not so easy like what you say. We recently inject nearly 10 billion $ to our engine companies, but it is far from enough. Hijack? No use. They can even show their designation blueprint to you, but the real difficult part is manufacturing and materials, which you can't hijack at all because it is about your industry supply chain. Even if you have a whole industry supply chain, develop a mature aviation engine takes at least 15~20 years, even US/UK is so. Invest tens of billions $ and wait for decades? Voters won't be happy with this.
And Turkey won't buy KFX. Even if KFX reached its designated performance, it is still a 4.5 gen fighter which doesn't have decisive gap between F-16s.
 

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If I am Turkish President I will focus on engine first. Put a lot of money for the engine. Hijack engineers from RR/GE/etc. Pay them a lot of money and with pension promise.

TFX can wait, just build Hurjet first and get experience from that. Turkish can buy KFX (if the program is success) or Chinese J 35 while waiting for the engine development.
Yes... sure - we should kidnap them all like the US did (papercut)... but I see what you mean... we should try to hire the best of the best from all around the world... and put the most money into that project... you are right, I probably would do the same... but the Young-Turks would flip backwards because of the missing Starbucks coffee and lack of Tinder dates ... we don't have money for that...
we have to feed refugees - 40B $... you know what that means?
77.9M$ Unit Cost F-35A
101.3M$ F-35B
_____
40.000M$ for refugees... :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 

Indos

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Engine design is not so easy like what you say. We recently inject nearly 10 billion $ to our engine companies, but it is far from enough. Hijack? No use. They can even show their designation blueprint to you, but the real difficult part is manufacturing and materials, which you can't hijack at all because it is about your industry supply chain. Even if you have a whole industry supply chain, develop a mature aviation engine takes at least 15~20 years, even US/UK is so. Invest tens of billions $ and wait for decades? Voters won't be happy with this.
And Turkey won't buy KFX. Even if KFX reached its designated performance, it is still a 4.5 gen fighter which doesn't have decisive gap between F-16s.
How about buying the material from China ?? The machinery like CNC I think is available in the market.
 

LittleFish

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We didn't rule out anybody lmfao
Maybe I should say that Turkey is ruled out by UK/US....?
We can just hope for Turkey to make a miracle - some sort of copying and updating the F16 F110-GE-100 engines to some kind of F110-GE-132 ...if that is possible, but I doubt it...
Such miracle won't happen at all. Check out how long it takes for PW/GE/RR to develop a mature engine. Even copy a engine is rather difficult.
As far as I have the information from the news etc, we have no access to the necessary engines. RR is out because of pressure from the USA ... France? really? Russia is associated with too many risks, and on many fronts, we are in conflict with them and cannot trust them - China would not be an option and has its own problems ...
I would say - Saab would be an alternative for us, but here the EU would stand in the way too...
Well, then you have no choice at all. Saab uses US engines.
 

LittleFish

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How about buying the material from China ?? The machinery like CNC I think is available in the market.
You bought it, then so what? Machine is sold everywhere, you can buy it from China, then you can also buy it from US. Manufacturing process and material technology is the key, and they cannot be bought at all since they are a part of the who industry chain, which are owned only by the Big Fives.
 

LittleFish

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Yes... sure - we should kidnap them all like the US did (papercut)... but I see what you mean... we should try to hire the best of the best from all around the world... and put the most money into that project... you are right, I probably would do the same... but the Young-Turks would flip backwards because of the missing Starbucks coffee and lack of Tinder dates ... we don't have money for that...
we have to feed refugees - 40B $... you know what that means?
77.9M$ Unit Cost F-35A
101.3M$ F-35B
_____
40.000M$ for refugees... :rofl::rofl::rofl:
Even we feel reluctant to invest more in engine industry. It is a bottomless hole for money and time. If Erdogan tells buyuk congress that he will invest 100 billions $ to develop engines and to wait 20~30 years, I think his proposal will be rejected immediately.
 

LeGenD

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If a leader is making irrational decisions, then it is important to question such decisions instead of pinning the blame on external players for drawing a line, settle for inferior solutions, and/or embark on extremely ambitious projects which may or may not deliver. Rationality takes a back seat otherwise.

Closely study the S-400 system, and focus on developing a similar system of your own. Try to reach an understanding with USA for this matter and a way forward. Developing a 5th generation aircraft from scratch is expected to be a far more expensive and difficult undertaking in comparison.

All I see here is a never-ending list of complaints. Nobody is asking the right questions.

My 2 cents.
 

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