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Deino

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Can you guys imagine if AZM turns out being the TFX with WS-10? @JamD @SQ8 and -- so we have someone throwing cold water -- @Deino Maybe we should move this to the Pakistan Navy forum and see if the wishing well can do its magic...

Just in a simple word: NO

And not that I rate the WS-10 as unreliable or not suitable, but simply since the Turkish team is aiming for more, a more modern powerplant and even more full IP and ToT.

As such I cannot think that China is willing to provide ToT for a potential licence production or even an own fifth generation engine what Turkey strictly demands and by all I noticed in this whole TFX-mess in contrary to all claims by Turkish members but what both GE and RR so far refused: No Western engine designer will EVER provide full ToT of its "crown jewels" to Turkey just for a few $$$$. And the same goes for China.

They will always only provide ToT of an older design and as such dated technology, what Turkey refuses since they only want the best or they will restrict the right to promote the end product.



Turkey successfully tests 2nd prototype of indigenous helicopter engine
Prototype of Turkey's 1st indigenous helicopter engine passes ignition test, says manufacturing company
...

It is only dwellers of the past who would think engines are a chellenge in 2020s. Times change
Oh well ... and you really think that having the "second prototype of a helicopter engine in bench test" qualifies you to develop a fifth generation engine within the self-proclaimed time? Dream on ...
 

Dungeness

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I have maintained persistently that Turkey and Pakistan remain the most natural allies you can think of. With the doors to EU and US slowly closing in on Turkey, they have a need to diversify and procure technology from other sources while they develop their own infrastructure. The Chinese will not mind this too much as it gives them insight into Western products and their methodologies in building which Turkey is aware o. Pakistan can sit in the mddle and be a conduit for all these transfers, and allows it to pick up part manufacturing contracts from Turkey. I think it is a win win situation for all parties concerned. It will have to be dealt with deftly by our Turkish brothers as US and EU will not appreciate Chinese taking a peak at Western equipment.
A
Interesting. Now I am confused who is in Tech Hunt.
 

T-SaGe

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The TS-1400 has no direct relevance to the MMU, aka TFX. Engine development activities related to MMU are proceeding in a different lane.

It would be ideal situation for Pakistan to collaborate with China and Turkey for its defence needs. Usa and France is a dead end for us. Turkey biggest challenge is to build or gain export license for the 5th generation and T129 helicopter, if they can overcome this obstacle then Pakistan/Turkish defence ties can reach a new level within the next decade or so.


Is this engine for the t129 attack helicopter which Pakistan ordered?
TS1400 core is an indeginous project that started from scratch, including design and testing activities. This engine is the first step of a very broad engine development program that will fit different types of needs beyond the production of a single turboshaft. The TS1400 will first be used in the T-625 general purpose helicopter, which its civil certification process is ongoing. then will be used in the T-629(6-ton class) attack helicopter. After TS1400, different variants will be used in light class helicopters, 10/12-ton mtow utility and naval helicopters. Very briefly, Turkish platform producers and integrators will now have domestic engine configurations in all rotary wing platform developments. The only exception could be the T700-TEI-701D, which is being produced under license for the T-70.

After the political interventions in the supply of the LHTEC engine for Pakistan army and the significant progress that continue with the Turkish Atak Phase-2 program in the meantime, I am not sure that the Pakistan's attack helis will be coded as 129. On the other hand, a completely ITAR-free platform, T-629 helicopter's manned variant is preparing for its first flight. Therefore, even if you are holding an MMU-AZM-focused discussion here, there may be a more complex defense cooperation between the two countries than you think.

edit:

Head of SSB, Demir said, "We are working on the involvement of friendly and allied countries in the MMU project. This project will become a joint project of friendly and brotherly allies after a while. There is no delay. The project is progressing according to the expected pace and schedule."

 
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Desert Fox 1

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Turkey is looking to co-manufacture missiles and warplanes with Pakistan, with the collaboration likely to pave the way for the country to access Chinese war technology as well.

According to report, Turkish defence and government officials have held meetings with their Pakistani counterparts regarding developing and manufacturing military hardware together.

People from both countries have confirmed the development, adding that the last such meeting took place in January. However, they didn't disclose how far the two countries are to reaching a deal or when such a meeting will take place again.

Pakistan develops the JF-17 Thunder fighter jet with China. This means that Turkey can get its hands on Chinese military technology when it collaborates on defence projects with Pakistan.

Islamabad is said to have adopted Chinese designs for its Shaheen ballistic missiles as well. Turkish officials familiar with the matter spoke to Bloomberg on the condition of anonymity to say that Ankara sees Islamabad as a strategic ally and a potential partner in developing its Siper long-range missile-defence project and TF-X fighter jets.
Pakistani Defence Secretary Mian Muhammad Hilal Hussain met with top Turkish officials including Defence Minister Hulusi Akar in December, and discussed defence industry cooperation," report said.
 

JamD

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Can you guys imagine if AZM turns out being the TFX with WS-10? @JamD @SQ8 and -- so we have someone throwing cold water -- @Deino Maybe we should move this to the Pakistan Navy forum and see if the wishing well can do its magic...
I am pretty sure you have speculated on this possibility, but I am not 100% sure so here goes. It is possible that Turkey and Pakistan will work together to make two FGFA's: Turkey's TFX and Pakistan's Azm.

Here's a possible collaboration (pipedream): TFX is a heavyweight air-superiority fighter while Azm is a mediumweight multirole fighter. Both Turkey and Pakistan will buy TFX and Azm. Pakistan's TFX is powered by Chinese engines, and Turkey's Azm is powered by western engines. That is Pakistan's TFX and Azm are powered by Chinese engines, and Turkey's TFX and Azm are powered by western (and eventually local) engines. There is a possibility that all TFX and Azm are powered by Turkish engines if they're somehow ready that quickly. Both TFX and Azm share a lot of systems such as flight computers, avionics, weapons.

Just a crazy idea, I know the list of 100 reasons why this will not happen.

AZM is not going to be TFX. Pakistan will participate in TF-X for sure but AZM is a different project with different expectations. They might take some input from the Turks but there won't be a union of both projects at any stage.
Pakistan is going to need atleast three 5th gen platforms by 2030's.
A combined project will be beneficial for both countries practical and less expense.

However combined designe parameters and capabilities may be an obstacle. It will be difficult to arrive at a design that meets requirements of both nations.

Turkey might go with SU 57 and TFX combination.
For PAF only option in that case will be to get a combination of TFX with F 20 or SU 57 but will it be possible and available.

Other option is to develop AZAM parallel to it with more focus on AG capabilities. but then participation in TFX will be limited.

best option is to either just buy TFX or J 31 ,and keep developing AZAM with interaction wit Turkey and China.
I have built upon ideas from you folks.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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I am pretty sure you have speculated on this possibility, but I am not 100% sure so here goes. It is possible that Turkey and Pakistan will work together to make two FGFA's: Turkey's TFX and Pakistan's Azm.

Here's a possible collaboration (pipedream): TFX is a heavyweight air-superiority fighter while Azm is a mediumweight multirole fighter. Both Turkey and Pakistan will buy TFX and Azm. Pakistan's TFX is powered by Chinese engines, and Turkey's Azm is powered by western engines. That is Pakistan's TFX and Azm are powered by Chinese engines, and Turkey's TFX and Azm are powered by western (and eventually local) engines. There is a possibility that all TFX and Azm are powered by Turkish engines if they're somehow ready that quickly. Both TFX and Azm share a lot of systems such as flight computers, avionics, weapons.

Just a crazy idea, I know the list of 100 reasons why this will not happen.



I have built upon ideas from you folks.
Yep... but at this point, I'd remove the second medium-weight platform with imported engines. Rather, the PAF could buy into the TFX, but make it ITAR-free by using Chinese engines. However, at the same time, we both invest in TR Motor to create an original engine that we co-own and manufacture across parallel production lines.

Basically, I'd say AZM could become the ITAR-free TFX. This would allow us to 'offload' the FCS development to the Turks. We'd be stuck with the difficult (but maybe more tenable) task of integrating the engine. There's a lot more experience out there for this work (e.g., in South Africa, Brazil, Ukraine, etc) than trying to develop a FCS.

We start by replacing the F-16s with the TFX. The TFX would be our ticket to building (that long elusive) fleet of 100+ strike-capable fighters. We post these for maritime ops, strike, offensive air operations, etc.

That said, if the TR Motor design checks out, both Turkey and Pakistan could get together again to develop a single-engine medium-weight fighter. Heck, the PAF could try going it alone as a so-called 6GFA, but with the goal of replacing the JF-17. I mean, I don't think the PAF is going to fly frequent CAPs with just twinnies alone.

E.g., KAI KFX's single engine concept.
1614795557305.png
 
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JamD

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Yep... but at this point, I'd remove the second medium-weight platform with imported engines. Rather, the PAF could buy into the TFX, but make it ITAR-free by using Chinese engines. However, at the same time, we both invest in TR Motor to create an original engine that we co-own and manufacture across parallel production lines.

Basically, I'd say AZM could become the ITAR-free TFX. This would allow us to 'offload' the FCS development to the Turks. We'd be stuck with the difficult (but maybe more tenable) task of integrating the engine. There's a lot more experience out there for this work (e.g., in South Africa, Brazil, Ukraine, etc) than trying to develop a FCS.

We start by replacing the F-16s with the TFX. The TFX would be our ticket to building (that long elusive) fleet of 100+ strike-capable fighters. We post these for maritime ops, strike, offensive air operations, etc.

That said, if the TR Motor design checks out, both Turkey and Pakistan could get together again to develop a single-engine medium-weight fighter. Heck, the PAF could try going it alone as a so-called 6GFA, but with the goal of replacing the JF-17. I mean, I don't think the PAF is going to fly frequent CAPs with just twinnies alone.

E.g., KAI KFX's single engine concept.
View attachment 721752
That certainly makes more sense than what I proposed.

However, I think Turkey and Pakistan haven't agreed to anything concrete so far judging from the statements we have heard.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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That certainly makes more sense than what I proposed.

However, I think Turkey and Pakistan haven't agreed to anything concrete so far judging from the statements we have heard.
Well we can solve that I think ... Mods move this thread to the Pakistan Navy forum plz... Mods summon Zarvan plz...
 

imadul

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Defense hardware JV between Pak and Turkey is must and natural as @araz and others say....but Tukey needs western technology especially turbofan engines, marine diesel engines, and other heavy engines for tanks and armored vehicles.
Software can be developed even electronics but engines are result of decades of learning in mechanical and metallurgical engineering.
Even china has not yet developed reliable turbofan engines.
 

Awan68

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well dear to you it may be nonsense but reality is we are not getting T 129 from Turkey. despite the fact we are living in 2020 and its all possible but yet can't get the dam engine. so better keep our heads below the cloud
Turkey is ahead in some basic domains and a couple advanced domains, Pakistan is miles ahead in more advanced and extremely sensitive domains. If u do not have adequate information, please refrain from bieng an insufferable "know nothing at all".
 

Indos

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Yep... but at this point, I'd remove the second medium-weight platform with imported engines. Rather, the PAF could buy into the TFX, but make it ITAR-free by using Chinese engines. However, at the same time, we both invest in TR Motor to create an original engine that we co-own and manufacture across parallel production lines.

Basically, I'd say AZM could become the ITAR-free TFX. This would allow us to 'offload' the FCS development to the Turks. We'd be stuck with the difficult (but maybe more tenable) task of integrating the engine. There's a lot more experience out there for this work (e.g., in South Africa, Brazil, Ukraine, etc) than trying to develop a FCS.

We start by replacing the F-16s with the TFX. The TFX would be our ticket to building (that long elusive) fleet of 100+ strike-capable fighters. We post these for maritime ops, strike, offensive air operations, etc.

That said, if the TR Motor design checks out, both Turkey and Pakistan could get together again to develop a single-engine medium-weight fighter. Heck, the PAF could try going it alone as a so-called 6GFA, but with the goal of replacing the JF-17. I mean, I don't think the PAF is going to fly frequent CAPs with just twinnies alone.

E.g., KAI KFX's single engine concept.
View attachment 721752
That single engine KFX/IFX concept is rejected and that concept comes from KAI. The one that get go ahead is C 103 design which is made by ADD Korea and Indonesian team during the first phase of development. KAI and LM comes in second phase of development (2016-......)

C 103 design inside Indonesian wind tunnel. The final design is C 109 which is a refinement of C 103 design.

 

xizhimen

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Why Turkey wants tie-up with Pakistan to build '1st big fighter jet of Muslims'
The TF-X project is considered cornerstone of Turkey's defence modernisation plans

By Justin Paul George

March 03, 2021 10:44 IST


An artist's concept of the TF-X | TAI

Over the past decade, Turkey under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has adopted an independent foreign policy. Erdogan has aimed to project Turkey as a major industrial and military power in the Middle East and also cultivate strategic ties with prominent Muslim nations.

However, this independent approach to foreign policy has frayed ties with NATO, and in particular with the US, Turkey's main security partner.

In December 2017, Turkey signed a deal worth around $2.5 billion to buy Russia's S-400 surface-to-air missile system, provoking outrage in Washington DC. In 2019, the Donald Trump administration removed Turkey as a partner from the F-35 stealth fighter project and imposed restrictions on deals with Turkish defence companies. Despite the pressure from the US, Erdogan's government has remained defiant in going ahead with the S-400 deal.

On Tuesday, Bloomberg reported that Turkey is pushing to co-manufacture warplanes and missiles with Pakistan. "Turkish defense and government officials have held periodic talks with Pakistani counterparts—the last high-level discussion was in January—about developing and manufacturing military hardware with Pakistan, according to people from both countries who are familiar with the negotiations," Bloomberg reported.

"Turkey sees nuclear power Pakistan as a strategic ally and potential partner in building its Siper long-range missile-defense project and TF-X fighter jet," the report added. According to reports, the Siper is a long-range, high-altitude surface-to-air missile system that can engage both aircraft and ballistic missiles. However, it is the TF-X project that is considered the cornerstone of Turkey's defence modernisation plans.

Stealth fighter

The TF-X (Turkish Fighter-Experimental) is a stealthy twin-engine fighter jet that Turkey intends to use as the replacement for its vast fleet of F-16 fighters. Turkey received at least 240 F-16 fighters from the US, making it the largest operator of the type after Israel and the US.

The TF-X project was launched in 2011. Turkey intends the fighter to carry indigenously developed radar, missiles and electronics. In 2015, Turkey chose BAE Systems, a UK-based aerospace company, to assist in development of the TF-X. Mock-ups of the TF-X have shown a fighter with 'stealth features' such as internal weapons bays and angled air intakes for the engines.

Power problem

Initially, Turkey announced plans to fly the first prototype of the TF-X by 2023 and induct up to 250 aircraft. However, the test flight target has slipped to 2025-26. The TF-X project has been hampered by lack of progress in selecting a foreign engine to power initial batches of the aircraft. Turkey aims to develop an indigenous engine for the project.

Selecting an engine is necessary before the aircraft's design is finalised. In 2017, a Turkish company, Kale Group, entered into a $139 million deal with Rolls-Royce to develop an engine for the TF-X. However, the project has seen little progress over technology transfer concerns. Russia has also offered assistance to Turkey for providing engines for the TF-X.

Defence Turkey, a Turkish defence website, has estimated it would cost around $21 billion to develop and produce the TF-X fighter, including $7.3 billion for development alone.

Partners sought

In 2020, Turkey invited Malaysia to join in co-development of the TF-X. Malaysia has industrial capabilities to produce composite material for the skin of the aircraft.

Speaking about the proposal at the time, Temel Kotil, CEO of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), was quoted by Defense News as saying Turkey considered "Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kazakhstan as potential partners or buyers of the future fighter jet". Kotil declared, “[TF-X] will be the first big fighter jet of the Muslims. Building the aircraft first and then selling it is a modality. But we think it’s better if we take in partners at this stage."

Approaching China via Pakistan

Bloomberg noted the apparent aim of the cooperation with Pakistan was to bring "Turkey closer to some of China’s military technology". China has been Pakistan's main strategic benefactor for decades, helping Islamabad build fighter aircraft, missiles, warships, tanks and submarines.

In 2013, Turkey announced a Chinese company had been selected to develop a long-range surface-to-air missile system. However, in 2015, Turkey announced the cancellation of the deal with China, apparently over Beijing's reluctance to transfer technology for the project as well as pressure from NATO allies.

China already has two stealth fighter projects: The J-20 fighter that is in service and the lighter J-31 fighter that is still in development. While China has also faced obstacles in developing aircraft engines, Beijing is beginning to make progress in building indigenous propulsion systems for its warplanes.

Interestingly, Pakistan also has a 'fifth-generation' fighter project under development referred to as 'Project Azm'. However, little is known about progress on the project and given Pakistan's economic and technological limitations, an indigenous project of this magnitude is unlikely to see the light of day. Hence, the offer of cooperation from Turkey may turn out to be appealing to Pakistan.

 

SpaceMan18

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Why Turkey wants tie-up with Pakistan to build '1st big fighter jet of Muslims'
The TF-X project is considered cornerstone of Turkey's defence modernisation plans

By Justin Paul George

March 03, 2021 10:44 IST


An artist's concept of the TF-X | TAI

Over the past decade, Turkey under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has adopted an independent foreign policy. Erdogan has aimed to project Turkey as a major industrial and military power in the Middle East and also cultivate strategic ties with prominent Muslim nations.

However, this independent approach to foreign policy has frayed ties with NATO, and in particular with the US, Turkey's main security partner.

In December 2017, Turkey signed a deal worth around $2.5 billion to buy Russia's S-400 surface-to-air missile system, provoking outrage in Washington DC. In 2019, the Donald Trump administration removed Turkey as a partner from the F-35 stealth fighter project and imposed restrictions on deals with Turkish defence companies. Despite the pressure from the US, Erdogan's government has remained defiant in going ahead with the S-400 deal.

On Tuesday, Bloomberg reported that Turkey is pushing to co-manufacture warplanes and missiles with Pakistan. "Turkish defense and government officials have held periodic talks with Pakistani counterparts—the last high-level discussion was in January—about developing and manufacturing military hardware with Pakistan, according to people from both countries who are familiar with the negotiations," Bloomberg reported.

"Turkey sees nuclear power Pakistan as a strategic ally and potential partner in building its Siper long-range missile-defense project and TF-X fighter jet," the report added. According to reports, the Siper is a long-range, high-altitude surface-to-air missile system that can engage both aircraft and ballistic missiles. However, it is the TF-X project that is considered the cornerstone of Turkey's defence modernisation plans.

Stealth fighter

The TF-X (Turkish Fighter-Experimental) is a stealthy twin-engine fighter jet that Turkey intends to use as the replacement for its vast fleet of F-16 fighters. Turkey received at least 240 F-16 fighters from the US, making it the largest operator of the type after Israel and the US.

The TF-X project was launched in 2011. Turkey intends the fighter to carry indigenously developed radar, missiles and electronics. In 2015, Turkey chose BAE Systems, a UK-based aerospace company, to assist in development of the TF-X. Mock-ups of the TF-X have shown a fighter with 'stealth features' such as internal weapons bays and angled air intakes for the engines.

Power problem

Initially, Turkey announced plans to fly the first prototype of the TF-X by 2023 and induct up to 250 aircraft. However, the test flight target has slipped to 2025-26. The TF-X project has been hampered by lack of progress in selecting a foreign engine to power initial batches of the aircraft. Turkey aims to develop an indigenous engine for the project.

Selecting an engine is necessary before the aircraft's design is finalised. In 2017, a Turkish company, Kale Group, entered into a $139 million deal with Rolls-Royce to develop an engine for the TF-X. However, the project has seen little progress over technology transfer concerns. Russia has also offered assistance to Turkey for providing engines for the TF-X.

Defence Turkey, a Turkish defence website, has estimated it would cost around $21 billion to develop and produce the TF-X fighter, including $7.3 billion for development alone.

Partners sought

In 2020, Turkey invited Malaysia to join in co-development of the TF-X. Malaysia has industrial capabilities to produce composite material for the skin of the aircraft.

Speaking about the proposal at the time, Temel Kotil, CEO of Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), was quoted by Defense News as saying Turkey considered "Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kazakhstan as potential partners or buyers of the future fighter jet". Kotil declared, “[TF-X] will be the first big fighter jet of the Muslims. Building the aircraft first and then selling it is a modality. But we think it’s better if we take in partners at this stage."

Approaching China via Pakistan

Bloomberg noted the apparent aim of the cooperation with Pakistan was to bring "Turkey closer to some of China’s military technology". China has been Pakistan's main strategic benefactor for decades, helping Islamabad build fighter aircraft, missiles, warships, tanks and submarines.

In 2013, Turkey announced a Chinese company had been selected to develop a long-range surface-to-air missile system. However, in 2015, Turkey announced the cancellation of the deal with China, apparently over Beijing's reluctance to transfer technology for the project as well as pressure from NATO allies.

China already has two stealth fighter projects: The J-20 fighter that is in service and the lighter J-31 fighter that is still in development. While China has also faced obstacles in developing aircraft engines, Beijing is beginning to make progress in building indigenous propulsion systems for its warplanes.

Interestingly, Pakistan also has a 'fifth-generation' fighter project under development referred to as 'Project Azm'. However, little is known about progress on the project and given Pakistan's economic and technological limitations, an indigenous project of this magnitude is unlikely to see the light of day. Hence, the offer of cooperation from Turkey may turn out to be appealing to Pakistan.

Eh they even asked Bangladesh to join too along with maybe Indonesia idk , we will buy it but can't invest in it yet.

TFX doesn't roll out until 2029 , too long
 

T-SaGe

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TFX doesn't roll out until 2029 , too long
Where did you get this information? It is higly speculative, or possibly deliberate-false claim.

The MMU roll out ceremony will be held on March 18, 2023.[1] The aircraft will exit the hangar with GE engines in the first place.[2] Engine sets planned to be used in prototypes have already been purchased.[3] The date of 2029-2030 represents the beginning of Phase-2 / IOC in the project schedule.[4]
 
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