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Turkey not necessarily seeking return to F-35 project, but to ask for compensation

Sineva

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CAATSA says any country that buys from Russia is sanctioned. So I'm afraid no compensation.
That only came into effect in june 2017.Tai and northrop/grumman signed a letter of intent all the waaaay back in feb 2007 for the turks to be one of only 2 international suppliers to n/g for the F35 program.
Also theres the small matter of the $195,000,000.00[up to 2014] that the turks have invested in the program since 1999.
Sanctions are not an excuse for failing to abide by the terms of contracts that you have signed,neither are they guaranteed to get you out of paying compensation if you do fail to honor a contract.
But, no matter what the agreement, it is eventually politics that will decide the fate.
Truer words were never spoken,well said sir.
 

Pakistan Space Agency

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While rest of NATO members have started inducting F-35s, do the Turks feel left behind?

TFX is not the answer to Turkey's immediate fifth generation needs as that project is a long way away to fruition. So what's the solution?

Is this the beginning of Turkish Air Force's lost decade?
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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CAATSA says any country that buys from Russia is sanctioned. So I'm afraid no compensation.
When did Turkey join the F-35 program and when was CAATSA passed?

The question will be whether domestic US law supersedes international contracts, especially if it is being applied retroactively. Additionally, was there specific language in the F-35 contract signed by Turkey that clearly laid out consequences for Turkey if it undertook military purchases from Russia?
 

Tai Hai Chen

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When did Turkey join the F-35 program and when was CAATSA passed?

The question will be whether domestic US law supersedes international contracts, especially if it is being applied retroactively. Additionally, was there specific language in the F-35 contract signed by Turkey that clearly laid out consequences for Turkey if it undertook military purchases from Russia?
CAATSA applies to all military hardware, be it F-35 or F-16.
 

VCheng

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When did Turkey join the F-35 program and when was CAATSA passed?

The question will be whether domestic US law supersedes international contracts, especially if it is being applied retroactively. Additionally, was there specific language in the F-35 contract signed by Turkey that clearly laid out consequences for Turkey if it undertook military purchases from Russia?
Placing an acquired weapons system in a situation where its secrets would be jeopardized would be a violation of the purchase agreement.
 

Trango Towers

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Turkey make the right move. No matter what turkey do. US will never want Turkey to be involved back in their top military project. R/S between US and turkey will never be same.
This is good news...as kissinger said

Its dangerous to be Americas enemy but

Suicidals to be its friend

Turkey is moving towards an independent defence policy
 

GriffinsRule

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Since you will not sell me the F35, pay me. :laughcry: :crazy:

I see Turkey has learnt a lot from Pakistan.
Quite the opposite. Pakistan should have but didn't take to courts the matter where F-16s were paid for but not delivered. The Pakistani government at the time chickened out. It wasn't until 5yrs later that Brown amendment was passed and Pakistan got back it's payment in form of soybeans
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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Placing an acquired weapons system in a situation where its secrets would be jeopardized would be a violation of the purchase agreement.
And who made that determination and how?

What did the US find wrong with the controls the Turkish side promised to put in place to guard those 'secrets'?

Was there language in the F-35 contract specifying this and the potential consequences?
 

Indos

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Turkey and other international partners of F 35 pay the project and enter the program after F35 already won the competition and has already flown. Not much development coming from that project, unless for BAE system that become tier one partner and supply substantial parts for the program.

Turkey is still benefiting by supplying some components for F35 program while it also doesnt need to buy 100 planes and divert the money to develop TFX and indigenous turbojet instead.
 

PakPrinciples

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Since you will not sell me the F35, pay me. :laughcry: :crazy:

I see Turkey has learnt a lot from Pakistan.
So you've never asked for your money back after a deadbeat retailer took your money but delivered nothing?

Not sure if you realized they're simply asking for the more than maybe $1 Billion USD they spent on the program back but they deserve additional compensation for the time lost, increased security threats they face due to the loss of the platform from their service and for good measure lets add in emotional distress from being back stabbed by an "ally".

I don't think we went to court over the US taking our money and not delivering the F-16's they promised us back in the 80s.

So perhaps Turkey is a bit smarter in how they're handling it.

I wouldn't be surprised if court passes judgement where Turkey has to pay compensation. The yanks are incredibly shrewd at drafting contracts.
We'll have to see but I don't think Turkey would have signed an agreement which authorized the US to keep their money if they failed to deliver on the F-35 order.

Since the agreement would have been signed before any inkling of a potential Russian deal, after all, no one expected such a deal.
I'm not entirely sure since no-one of us knows the true clauses ... as such who broke this contract and who not!
I agree, I think there could be some kind of clause stipulating the deal was null and void in case there was some kind of national security breach or threat and used this S-400 sale as the excuse to remove Turkey from the program.

Quite the opposite. Pakistan should have but didn't take to courts the matter where F-16s were paid for but not delivered.
Yeah, not sure why we never took the issue to court.

There could have been something else with relation to our deal that prevented us from doing so.

He emphasized that Turkey was no longer seeking to return to the F-35 international project from which it was removed over its purchase of Russian defense systems.
This is probably a better course of action for Turkey to take than remaining a part of the program.

The F-35 is certainly a great fighter jet, on paper, but the US has a bad habit of making promises and then breaking them. Not a trustworthy partner, certainly not a friend.

Turkey is on its way to producing its own 5th generation TAI TF-X, this ties into Pakistan's ambitions of Project AZM and with the assistance of Russia and China along with other countries involved in the program perhaps Bangladesh, Malaysia, Qatar and Indonesia among possible others Turkey's program could be a resounding success and far less risky.
 
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Tai Hai Chen

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CAATSA is a punitive measure. CAATSA punishes countries that buy Russian. Turkey defied US by buying Russian, so there is no point asking for compensation.
 

PakPrinciples

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CAATSA is a punitive measure. CAATSA punishes countries that buy Russian. Turkey defied US by buying Russian, so there is no point asking for compensation.
Yes, but they're still bound by the old contractual agreements that they made irregardless of new bills the US introduces into law.

Maybe there is something built into the contract that allows them to boot out Turkey if they introduce a bill that calls for it but do you honestly think any country, including Turkey, would sign a deal that makes it easy to not just cancel but keep all the money Turkey invested into the program?

Furthermore, Turkey only bought the S-400's after the US refused to sell them patriot batteries even former President Trump admits it was Obama's stupidity that lead to this:
Trump blames Turkey-F-35 dispute on Obama-era Patriot decision

No matter how you look at this the US betrayed Turkey and the Turks are owed their money back.

India didn't buy anything Russian post CAATSA. India bought Scorpene and Rafale from France, P-8 and Apache from the US.
No, the formal signing of the S-400 deal with India occured in 2018 after CAATSA came into law in 2017 and not only that India even went ahead and made an advance payment in 2019.

India violated CAATSA willingly and knowingly and should be sanctioned.
 

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