• Friday, December 14, 2018

Turkey Is Turning Into the Next Pakistan

Discussion in 'World Affairs' started by Lil Mathew, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Lil Mathew

    Lil Mathew BANNED

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    There isn't much that Turkey's president can do these days to further debase his reputation in the West. Recep Tayyip Erdogan has crushed peaceful protests at home and abroad, closed newspapers, threatened American soldiers, and collectively scapegoated Kurds. But over the weekend, Erdogan managed to go even lower.

    At a rally at Kahramanmaras, the Turkish leader brought a trembling 6-year-old girl on stage dressed in military garb and told her she would be honored if she died as a martyr. He sounded like a terrorist. We expect this kind of child abuse from the fanatics in Hamas or Hezbollah. Erdogan though is the leader of an important NATO ally.

    Turkey is beginning to resemble Pakistan, a perpetually failing state whose military leadership has tolerated and advanced a vision of political Islam deeply hostile to U.S. and Western interests.


    To be sure, Turkey is not quite there yet. There is still a majority of Turks who want to eventually join the European Union. The Turkish economyis stronger than Pakistan's, and its banks are more trusted. And unlike in Pakistan, the driving force to further Islamize society has come from Erdogan, an elected leader, not the military. Indeed, the Turkish military has (until some of Erdogan's recent reforms) historically been a force that undermined the elected leadership through coups to preserve the secular tradition of modern Turkey's founder, Kemal Ataturk.

    That said, Erdogan is following the Pakistani model in disturbing ways, according to Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistani ambassador to Washington. Haqqani, a former journalist, is in a unique position to evaluate this trend because he wrote the best history of how the Pakistani military embraced Islamic fundamentalism.

    In an interview Haqqani said Erdogan's approach was reminiscent of Pakistan's military dictator between 1978 and 1988, Zia ul-Haq. Like Zia, Erdogan has instituted legal and societal reforms to further Islamize society. In January, for example, he instituted a new plan to pour government money into Islamic schools.

    "Erdogan has taken the Pakistani formula of mixing hard-line nationalism with religiosity," Haqqani said. "Zia imposed Islamic laws by decree, amended the constitution, marginalized secular scholars and leaders, and created institutions for Islamization that have outlasted him. Erdogan is trying to do the same in Turkey."

    The clearest parallel with Pakistan is Turkey's current approach to the war in Syria. In January, Erdogan launched a new offensive against America's Kurdish allies in Afrin. Even though the Turks have worked against the regime in Damascus, during the first weeks of that offensive they actually coordinated with their erstwhile adversaries in Syria.


    This is a less toxic version of Pakistan's broader approach to the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan. There, the Pakistani military and intelligence services have tolerated and at times encouraged a group known as the Haqqani Network (no relation to the ambassador) to become a lifeline for the Afghan Taliban and other terrorists attacking U.S. forces and the elected government in Kabul. At the same time, the Pakistanis have been important allies for the U.S. dating back to the Islamic insurgency against the Soviets in Afghanistan, and more recently against elements of al Qaeda since 2001. Of course when the U.S. finally tracked down Osama bin Laden, it found him living in the same town as Pakistan's prestigious military academy, Abbottabad.

    Again, Turkey has not yet sunk to this level. But it's heading down this path. In the first years of the Syrian civil war after 2011, Turkey's border with that country was a sieve for new Islamic State recruits joining the short-lived caliphate in Raqqa. To this day, Turkey remains a friendly outpost for Hamas, the terror group that has run Gaza since 2007.

    As a former U.S. ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, told me this week: "Turkey is not Pakistan yet, but if it continues on the trajectory that Erdogan has put it on, there is a prospect it could become like Pakistan."

    This is the deep challenge today for Washington. So far however the U.S. government has not shown Ankara the tough love necessary to stop Turkey's slide. The latest high-level visit for example, from Secretary of State Rex Tillerson last month, sought to paper over Turkey's campaign in Afrin and Erdogan's recent threat to deliver an "Ottoman slap" to the U.S.

    This kind of short-term thinking is understandable, but it doesn't address the slow-motion disaster happening now in Turkey. Here it's important, at the very least, to draw some boundaries for Erdogan and convey that he cannot maintain the current relationship with the U.S. if he crosses them. A good starting point would be to demand Erdogan stop threatening U.S. soldiers.

    In the meantime, it's telling that Turkey and Pakistan are getting closer. Last week at a meeting of the Financial Action Task Force, the international body to counter money laundering, it was Turkey that helped counter a U.S. move to place Pakistani banks on a watch list for financing terrorism. Given the direction Turkey is heading, it looks like they are hoping Pakistan may one day return the favor.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...ally-turkey-is-turning-into-the-next-pakistan
     
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  2. hussain0216

    hussain0216 ELITE MEMBER

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    The more independent Turkey becomes
    The more it serves its own interests
    The more self reliant it is

    The more they will hate and attack it
     
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  3. Azadkashmir

    Azadkashmir SENIOR MEMBER

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    You know your doing the right thing when western world starts to attack you left right centre.
    If they praise you then you have served their interest not your own.
     
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  4. hussain0216

    hussain0216 ELITE MEMBER

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    Some telling quotes from the article

    A traitor and sell out

    As if Turkeys whole existence is to serve U.S and western interests
    The more you seek to serve your own interests they begin to attack you

    The U.S trying to impose itself on Turkey, or in other words do what I say or else Pakistan is currently going through the same problem, follow the same U.S failing strategy or else


    They will never let Turkey join
     
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  5. Lil Mathew

    Lil Mathew BANNED

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    Not independent... Erdogan behaves like a dictator...
    An open letter to President Erdoğan from 38 Nobel laureates
    Until Turkey frees detained writers and returns to the rule of law, it cannot claim to be a member of the free world


    [​IMG]


    JM Coetzee, Kazuo Ishiguro, Svetlana Alexievichand others

    Wed 28 Feb 2018 09.03 ESTLast modified on Thu 1 Mar 2018 09.29 EST


    • View more sharing options
    Dear President Erdoğan,

    We wish to draw your attention to the damage being done to the Republic of Turkey, to its reputation and the dignity and wellbeing of its citizens, through what leading authorities on freedom of expression deem to be the unlawful detention and wrongful conviction of writers and thinkers.

    In a Memorandum on the Freedom of Expression in Turkey (2017), Nils Muižnieks, then Council of Europe commissioner for Human Rights, warned:

    Turkey sentences journalists to life in jail over coup attempt

    “The space for democratic debate in Turkey has shrunk alarmingly following increased judicial harassment of large strata of society, including journalists, members of parliament, academics and ordinary citizens, and government action which has reduced pluralism and led to self-censorship. This deterioration came about in a very difficult context, but neither the attempted coup, nor other terrorist threats faced by Turkey, can justify measures that infringe media freedom and disavow the rule of law to such an extent.


    “The authorities should urgently change course by overhauling criminal legislation and practice, redevelop judicial independence and reaffirm their commitment to protect free speech.”

    There is no clearer example of the commissioner’s concern that the detention in September 2016 of Ahmet Altan, a bestselling novelist and columnist; Mehmet Altan, his brother, professor of economics and essayist; and Nazlı Ilıcak, a prominent journalist – all as part of a wave of arrests following the failed July 2016 coup. These writers were charged with attempting to overthrow the constitutional order through violence or force. The prosecutors originally wanted to charge them with giving “subliminal messages” to coup supporters while appearing on a television panel show. The ensuing tide of public ridicule made them change that accusation to using rhetoric “evocative of a coup”. Indeed, Turkey’s official Anatolia News Agency called the case “The Coup Evocation Trial”.

    As noted in the commissioner’s report, the evidence considered by the judge in Ahmet Altan’s case was limited to a story dating from 2010 in Taraf newspaper (of which Ahmet Altan had been the editor-in-chief until 2012), three of his op-ed columns and a TV appearance. The evidence against the other defendants was equally insubstantial. All these writers had spent their careers opposing coups and militarism of any sort, and yet were charged with aiding an armed terrorist organisation and staging a coup.



    The commissioner saw the detention and prosecution of Altan brothers as part of a broader pattern of repression in Turkey against those expressing dissent or criticism of the authorities. He considered such detentions and prosecutions to have violated human rights and undermined the rule of law. David Kaye, the UN special rapporteur on freedom of expression, concurred and dubbed the legal proceedings a “show trial”.

    Turkey’s own constitutional court concurred with this criticism. On 11 January this year, it ruled that Mehmet Altan and fellow journalist Şahin Alpay’s rights were being violated by pre-trial detention, and that they should be released. Yet the first-degree courts refused to implement the higher constitutional court’s decision, thus placing the judicial system in criminal violation of the constitution. Mr President, you must surely be concerned that the lower criminal court’s defiance and this non-legal decision was backed by the spokesperson of your government.

    On eve of trial, Ahmet Altan writes how imagination sustains him in Turkish jail

    On 16 February 2018, the Altan brothers and Ilıcak were sentenced to aggravated life sentences, precluding them from any prospect of a future amnesty.

    President Erdoğan, we the undersigned share the following opinion of David Kaye: “The court decision condemning journalists to aggravated life in prison for their work, without presenting substantial proof of their involvement in the coup attempt or ensuring a fair trial, critically threatens journalism and with it the remnants of freedom of expression and media freedom in Turkey”.


    In April 1998, you yourself were stripped of your position as mayor of Istanbul, banned from political office, and sentenced to prison for 10 months, for reciting a poem during a public speech in December 1997 through the same article 312 of the penal code. This was unjust, unlawful and cruel. Many human rights organisations – which defended you then – are appalled at the violations now occurring in your country. Amnesty International, PEN International, Committee to Protect Journalists, Article 19, and Reporters Without Borders are among those who oppose the recent court decision.

    During a ceremony in honour of Çetin Altan, on 2 February 2009, you declared publicly that “Turkey is no longer the same old Turkey who used to sentence its great writers to prison – this era is gone for ever.” Among the audience were Çetin Altan’s two sons: Ahmet and Mehmet. Nine years later, they are sentenced to life; isn’t that a fundamental contradiction?

    Under these circumstances, we voice the concern of many inside Turkey itself, of its allies and of the multilateral organisations of which it is a member. We call for the abrogation of the state of emergency, a quick return to the rule of law and for full freedom of speech and expression. Such a move would result in the speedy acquittal on appeal of Ms Ilıcak and the Altan brothers, and the immediate release of others wrongfully detained. Better still, it would make Turkey again a proud member of the free world.

    • Full list of Nobel laureate signatories:

    Svetlana Alexievich, Philip W Anderson, Aaron Ciechanover, JM Coetzee, Claude Cohen-Tannoudji, Elias J Corey, Gerhard Ertl, Albert Fert, Edmond H Fischer, Andrew Z Fire, Andre Geim, Sheldon Glashow, Serge Haroche, Leland H Hartwell, Oliver Hart, Richard Henderson, Dudley Herschbach, Avram Hershko, Roald Hoffmann, Robert Huber, Tim Hunt, Kazuo Ishiguro, Elfriede Jelinek, Eric S Maskin, Hartmut Michel, Herta Müller, VS Naipaul, William D Phillips, John C Polanyi, Richard J Roberts, Randy W Schekman, Wole Soyinka, Joseph Stiglitz, Thomas C Südhof, Jack W Szostak, Mario Vargas Llosa, J Robin Warren, Eric F Wieschaus
     
  6. Path-Finder

    Path-Finder ELITE MEMBER

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    When things don't go your way start crapping out propaganda.
     
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  7. lastofthepatriots

    lastofthepatriots SENIOR MEMBER

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    Hiv and poverty ridden national is calling Pakistan a failed state. :lol:
     
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  8. Azadkashmir

    Azadkashmir SENIOR MEMBER

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    lolz hahahah Europe will never allow turkey to join but they don't mind using turkey for their own interest. They want turkey to be their fetch it kangal-dog.
     
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  9. VCheng

    VCheng ELITE MEMBER

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    Well, if it can work so well for Pakistan, then why not Turkey?
     
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  10. Reichsmarschall

    Reichsmarschall SENIOR MEMBER

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    so this is new definition of failed states
     
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  11. Count Dracula

    Count Dracula FULL MEMBER

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    Hmm, reminds me of someone.
     
  12. waz

    waz MODERATOR

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    according to Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistani ambassador to Washington.

    Dear Turk bros consider this guy to be the Damat Ferid Pasha of Pakistan.....You know what I am talking about.
     
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  13. Lil Mathew

    Lil Mathew BANNED

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    How you know that writer of this article from Bloomberg is poor and have HIV???
     
  14. Azadkashmir

    Azadkashmir SENIOR MEMBER

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    Those Nobel prize tattay are just fake like Obama receiving peace prize. They just there to convince gullible peoples, oh look they have Nobel prize so their word counts.
     
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  15. kasper95

    kasper95 BANNED

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    People here still defending a guy who dsnt knoe what to tell a 6 year old kid