What's new

TTP ‘check-post’ set up in Swat: report

iLION12345_1

SENIOR MEMBER
May 1, 2016
2,281
16
7,053
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Is this for real? Thats a bit random for them. I wouldve thought they would say the Al Khalid or Al Zarrar is the best tank currently. Also does Pakistan have the Type 85 III? I thought Pakistan only has Type 85IIAP and the new overhauled/upgraded Type 85 UG or whatever its called.

@iLION12345_1
The Al-Zarrar really was never even a good tank too begin with, it’s a necessity that came due to a need of numbers, I hope to god it doesn’t get used in combat before it retires. It’s glass cannon; a modern gun and ammunition and a modern FCS with thermals on a vehicle with nearly no protection, barely average mobility and abysmal ergonomics/crew comfort.

The Al-Khalid is better sure, but the best tank in the PA (and the Indian subcontinent as a whole) is easily the VT-4P.

The Type 85-III isn’t a thing, at least not in the way they’re calling it. The Type 85-III was a further development of the Type 85-IIAP to make a third generation tank for both Pakistan and China, it was later renamed the Type 90-II and went on to become the Al-Khalid and the ZTZ-96Bs basis.

Type 85-IIAP was the only version of Type 80 series PA bought, they were upgraded to Type 85-UG in PA service. They’re just okay tanks, good enough for the theatre. Certainly comparable to Indias modernized T72s.
 

Primus

SENIOR MEMBER
Dec 27, 2020
3,243
0
4,220
Country
United Kingdom
Location
United Kingdom
The Al-Zarrar really was never even a good tank too begin with, it’s a necessity that came due to a need of numbers, I hope to god it doesn’t get used in combat before it retires. It’s glass cannon; a modern gun and ammunition and a modern FCS with thermals on a vehicle with nearly no protection, barely average mobility and abysmal ergonomics/crew comfort.

The Al-Khalid is better sure, but the best tank in the PA (and the Indian subcontinent as a whole) is easily the VT-4P.

The Type 85-III isn’t a thing, at least not in the way they’re calling it. The Type 85-III was a further development of the Type 85-IIAP to make a third generation tank for both Pakistan and China, it was later renamed the Type 90-II and went on to become the Al-Khalid and the ZTZ-96Bs basis.

Type 85-IIAP was the only version of Type 80 series PA bought, they were upgraded to Type 85-UG in PA service. They’re just okay tanks, good enough for the theatre. Certainly comparable to Indias modernized T72s.
The Al zarrar, whilst based on the obsolete T59, still serves a purpose within the army. Its not a bad tank in terms of Counter insurgency (ERA to stop incoming heat projectiles, such as the RPG 7 which is what they were using and still are using), and its FCS and firepower is still good enough to match the Indian T72. Yes its a glass cannon, but as Nicholas Moran said, having a tank on the battlefield is better than having no tanks. Too many situations in war, which makes it that you cant just retire the Al Zarrar out of service for having weak armour and mobility. It would be a massive morale booster on the battlefield for infantryman and also can provide fire support. (Does it have the ability to fire ATGMs?)


Also thank you for clearing up the Type 85 III for me. O7
 

Sifar zero

FULL MEMBER
Jul 27, 2020
1,148
1
1,709
Country
Pakistan
Location
South Africa
PTI ki sazish. KPK main TTP ko facilitate kiya ja raha hai. To put pressure on current central government
Wow never have I ever read a more stupid thing in my life. Not everything is a conspiracy against Niazi the universe does not revolve around him.
And all the experts in this thread acting like they have spent years in Swat and Fata please accept that you know nothing about TTP and leave it to the experts.
 

Sayfullah

FULL MEMBER
Sep 10, 2020
1,724
7
3,303
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
My friend went back to Swat for the first time since 2016. He told me in 2016 there was people in Swat that were pro army and also people that were anti army ptm type. Now he tells me 2022 everyone is anti army ptm type. Majority of Swat has anti army opinions according to him. They believe ptm narrative that army is behind it all. He also confirmed the Taliban thing was overhyped and exaggerated but he said that’s made more people anti army because people blame army of playing games with them now using ttp.

This seems to be the new trend in many areas in KP. Many people are starting to accept ptm narrative and become anti army.

Very concerning for Pakistan and Army.
 

iLION12345_1

SENIOR MEMBER
May 1, 2016
2,281
16
7,053
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
The Al zarrar, whilst based on the obsolete T59, still serves a purpose within the army. Its not a bad tank in terms of Counter insurgency (ERA to stop incoming heat projectiles, such as the RPG 7 which is what they were using and still are using), and its FCS and firepower is still good enough to match the Indian T72. Yes its a glass cannon, but as Nicholas Moran said, having a tank on the battlefield is better than having no tanks. Too many situations in war, which makes it that you cant just retire the Al Zarrar out of service for having weak armour and mobility. It would be a massive morale booster on the battlefield for infantryman and also can provide fire support. (Does it have the ability to fire ATGMs?)


Also thank you for clearing up the Type 85 III for me. O7
Insurgents were able to take out at least 3 Al-Zarrars, with one getting a hole blown right through the turret (in the front, out the back), since there’s no extra armor on the turret (there is a thin additional layer of composite In later models + ERA, but neither was being used then for some reason, and even that will not stop anything except maybe an RPG from the front, from the sides and rear it’s still just a Type 59).

It’s FCS and firepower are better than the Indian T72. Just recently IA is installing ELBIT TIFCS on about 60% of its T72 fleet, which will finally bring its FCS on par with Al-Zarrar, though its ammo is still older, so firepower still goes to the AZ.

The biggest issue with it is the abysmal crew comfort, it’s a only slightly enlarged type 59 turret in which they’ve had to fit a 125MM gun breech (it’s made for a 100MM gun), a semi-automatic loading system, the new FCS components, all that larger ammo, and many other upgrades, while still retaining a 4 man crew, in a tank that was already cramped. And there’s basically no chance of the crew surviving if one of those are hit either, since there’s no crew safety measures in place. There’s also no AC (the latter of these problems exist equally in the T72 as well, but that doesn’t help the AZs case).

I’m not saying we should retire them, rather we can’t, we just don’t have the numbers to do so, they play a very important part in PAs doctrine and they’re certainly better than having a stock Type 59. They’re still potent for the theatre they’ll be used in and the enemy they’ll be used against, firepower wise they’re literally on par with an original Al-Khalid and better than a T90S since they have comparable FCS and use the same ammo as AK, and yes it can fire the same ATGMs Al-Khalid and VT-4P can.

It’s just something that should be retired ASAP, and hence I hope it’s gone before it ever sees combat.
 

Primus

SENIOR MEMBER
Dec 27, 2020
3,243
0
4,220
Country
United Kingdom
Location
United Kingdom
Insurgents were able to take out at least 3 Al-Zarrars, with one getting a hole blown right through the turret (in the front, out the back), since there’s no extra armor on the turret (there is a thin additional layer of composite In later models + ERA, but neither was being used then for some reason, and even that will not stop anything except maybe an RPG from the front, from the sides and rear it’s still just a Type 59).

It’s FCS and firepower are better than the Indian T72. Just recently IA is installing ELBIT TIFCS on about 60% of its T72 fleet, which will finally bring its FCS on par with Al-Zarrar, though its ammo is still older, so firepower still goes to the AZ.

The biggest issue with it is the abysmal crew comfort, it’s a only slightly enlarged type 59 turret in which they’ve had to fit a 125MM gun breech (it’s made for a 100MM gun), a semi-automatic loading system, the new FCS components, all that larger ammo, and many other upgrades, while still retaining a 4 man crew, in a tank that was already cramped. And there’s basically no chance of the crew surviving if one of those are hit either, since there’s no crew safety measures in place. There’s also no AC (the latter of these problems exist equally in the T72 as well, but that doesn’t help the AZs case).

I’m not saying we should retire them, rather we can’t, we just don’t have the numbers to do so, they play a very important part in PAs doctrine and they’re certainly better than having a stock Type 59. They’re still potent for the theatre they’ll be used in and the enemy they’ll be used against, firepower wise they’re literally on par with an original Al-Khalid and better than a T90S since they have comparable FCS and use the same ammo as AK, and yes it can fire the same ATGMs Al-Khalid and VT-4P can.

It’s just something that should be retired ASAP, and hence I hope it’s gone before it ever sees combat.
I didn't know we lost 3 AZ tanks to them. I was aware that one of them survived an ambush, but not actually penetrated by the AT equipment


Is there an article that i can read on this?

Wow never have I ever read a more stupid thing in my life. Not everything is a conspiracy against Niazi the universe does not revolve around him.
And all the experts in this thread acting like they have spent years in Swat and Fata please accept that you know nothing about TTP and leave it to the experts.
Good to see you back
 
Last edited:

PanzerKiel

MILITARY PROFESSIONAL
Dec 5, 2006
3,753
180
24,603
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
since there’s no extra armor on the turret (there is a thin additional layer of composite In later models + ERA, but neither was being used then for some reason,
ERA is normally not used in such engagements. Because ERA normally explodes, therefore, these secondary explosions do prove lethal to friendly infantry who are around the tank.

ERA is generally used in engagements in which tanks are protected by infantry who are APC / ICV mounted so that they are safe from ERA fragments.
 

iLION12345_1

SENIOR MEMBER
May 1, 2016
2,281
16
7,053
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
ERA is normally not used in such engagements. Because ERA normally explodes, therefore, these secondary explosions do prove lethal to friendly infantry who are around the tank.

ERA is generally used in engagements in which tanks are protected by infantry who are APC / ICV mounted so that they are safe from ERA fragments
That definitely makes sense, I forgot that 😂
PA did infact adopt Add-on cage and sandbag armor for its APCs and Type 59/69s during the WoT when they realized that they were vulnerable. A similar setup was showcased for the Al-Zarrar but I assume not enough were in use in the region to warrant actually equipping them with it, or maybe they just weren’t seen with it in photos.

I didn't know we lost 3 AZ tanks to them. I was aware that one of them survived an ambush, but not actually penetrated by the AT equipment


Is there an article that i can read on this?
Unsure if there’s any articles, but there’s definitely photos of two separate destroyed AZs and another which could be one of those two that’s been moved, or Is a third tank entirely. Other than that Type 59s were lost too, the exact number of tanks lost by the PA during the WoT is unknown. I’ve seen the number 11 being thrown around before but I don’t really see how they can back that up, I’ve only see confirmed photos for 5~ But then again I haven’t looked much to find them.

4E227C0E-AAD7-4D01-AF44-8B58AACF276B.jpeg
7B44200B-A3E7-4C1C-8B3C-4BD144506AFA.png
32AFE81E-963F-468B-BC48-9C9800E46EBC.jpeg
40607F5D-B21B-4406-ABE4-3C90B9F34520.jpeg
8F5EB362-55E3-459F-86A9-9CDE19B9D8B2.png
C9B16DDC-C2EB-44B2-8F64-3449EB70AFF4.jpeg
8D0F1B56-0D0A-4D70-9550-225A1A72D6CB.jpeg
10272BF0-D2E2-41E9-B3F6-36FF5B7C3980.png
 

Attachments

  • B2C23D05-946E-4F90-B312-EEA8EB0834B0.jpeg
    B2C23D05-946E-4F90-B312-EEA8EB0834B0.jpeg
    87.8 KB · Views: 6
Last edited:

-blitzkrieg-

SENIOR MEMBER
Mar 1, 2015
5,242
3
6,252
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
My friend went back to Swat for the first time since 2016. He told me in 2016 there was people in Swat that were pro army and also people that were anti army ptm type. Now he tells me 2022 everyone is anti army ptm type. Majority of Swat has anti army opinions according to him. They believe ptm narrative that army is behind it all. He also confirmed the Taliban thing was overhyped and exaggerated but he said that’s made more people anti army because people blame army of playing games with them now using ttp.

This seems to be the new trend in many areas in KP. Many people are starting to accept ptm narrative and become anti army.

Very concerning for Pakistan and Army.
But are they angry at afghan taliban for facilitating rhe peace negotiation. And giving ttp safe havens?
If so pti has lost political influence there.
 

Primus

SENIOR MEMBER
Dec 27, 2020
3,243
0
4,220
Country
United Kingdom
Location
United Kingdom
That definitely makes sense, I forgot that 😂
PA did infact adopt Add-on cage and sandbag armor for its APCs and Type 59/69s during the WoT when they realized that they were vulnerable. A similar setup was showcased for the Al-Zarrar but I assume not enough were in use in the region to warrant actually equipping them with it, or maybe they just weren’t seen with it in photos.


Unsure if there’s any articles, but there’s definitely photos of two separate destroyed AZs and another which could be one of those two that’s been moved, or Is a third tank entirely. Other than that Type 59s were lost too, the exact number of tanks lost by the PA during the WoT is unknown. I’ve seen the number 11 being thrown around before but I don’t really see how they can back that up, I’ve only see confirmed photos for 5~ But then again I haven’t looked much to find them.

View attachment 870962 View attachment 870963 View attachment 870964 View attachment 870965 View attachment 870966 View attachment 870967 View attachment 870968 View attachment 870970
Ive seen that AZ. Thats the one that got ambushed by the terrorists, but the were unable to inflict any proper damage. All the damage done was external, not interal.
 

Great Janjua

SENIOR MEMBER
Aug 13, 2016
3,236
-3
4,007
Country
United Kingdom
Location
Pakistan
The state of Police in KPK is abysmal its like a trip back in time to the same old malaysia Shalwar Kameez with chapals, and fat bellies whilst the Elite force and FC are in good order.

PTI needs to get its shit together when it comes to the Police Department then we wouldn't have TTP going for hiking trips.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom