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Troops in Afghanistan ... in order to keep an eye on Nuclear Pakistan

crankthatskunk

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See Washington's Chilling message to Kabul thread?


Comment from Washington's White House supports my belief that once the USA leaves, first Afghanistan will fall then Pakistan. Everything is connected.

Nice to get support from the White House and so quickly too.
Correction, first Afghanistan would fall, then India would fall.
 

Waqas

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Maybe you are unedcuated and shouldnt comment about this in the first place.
How was your long rant even remotely related to what I said, I said how can the US reach a political settlement with the Taliban if they continue to break promises they made with them and why make the deal in the first place if they had no intentions of leaving, where does your long rant about what Pakistan wants or what Pakistan army is doing even remotely come into the picture of what I said?, Pakistan used her influence to make the Talibans come to the negotiating table on the behest of the US, they asked us to do so and a few months later they break off the deal, do you really think Pakistan would be able to influence the Taliban to come to the negotiating table when the US changes their minds again a few years down the road?, and if you think US broke off the deal because Pakistan wanted US to stay I mean why would the US listen to anything Pakistan wants or says, why the heck would we help the Taliban and the US come to the negotiating table in the first place if we don't want the US to leave?
 

imadul

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Talibans put Ghani Govt removel as condition for ceasefire if this happens and interim setup moves in we might see some progress in intra Afghan dialogue US seeking concessions from Talibans to keep troops after May let's see how it pans out

Time has changed alot since rise of China and close military partnerships with Pakistan chances to get bully by US are less now also US economy tanked due to COVID even Biden administration see Afghanistan as burden now that's why Austin gave shut up call to Mily
It will be very hard to believe US will leave no footprint in Afghanistan. If I will be at Pentagon, I will have one or two high tech quick action bases. And US is still very powerful. China has not yet exhibited global power projection.
 

LeGenD

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@Dalit @LeGenD

Just a short rejoinder to your exchange:

I don't believe things are black and white most of the time in international relations. Despite the much publicised trade war and the tit for tat blaming and sanctions etc., the US and China are trading at major volumes. Despite their fast diverging geopolitical objectives, France and Turkey are still on talking terms at the highest level with their presidents' meeting a couple of days ago. There's a lot of grey in such diplomatic relations, just because the US' interests in security differ from ours, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to maximise our other interests in terms of trade and investment especially when other countries are able to do the same.
Thanks for your input, dear. Really appreciated.

Indeed, as you pointed out, ground realities are COMPLEX and not exactly black-and-white. But how many seem to understand as much? There is CHAOTIC exchange of views in regards to this theme here on PDF and some are hyper-judgmental in the course.

Pakistani LOVE to verbally assault each other and look down upon each other on average (sometimes physically too). This country is split on both political grounds and religious grounds on the surface. You RISK offending somebody while speaking your mind (even if you have an objective/rational take of things). Your patriotism is in question one way or the other. These issues are apparent in PDF as well. Is this the way forward for us all?

(1) 19 years have passed since Musharraf administration provided access to Americans in Afghanistan and successive governments maintained the statusquo, but there no such thing as consensus-building and/or national narrative for this theme.

Some have utter disdain for USA and openly declare it an enemy state; others berate successive COAS for providing access to Americans in Afghanistan; some are rooting for the Afghan Taliban; the Intra-Afghan Dialogue is the latest theme and push. Kiya CIRCUS chaal raha hai region mein?

Americans have a functioning democracy and administrations come and go in USA - it is the American DEEP STATE that is a permanent feature of the country. Trump administration is gone and now Pakistan has to work with Biden administration. And the current American administration is closer to the American DEEP STATE. It is possible that Biden administration will re-negotiate terms of settlement in Afghanistan. These are all PREDICTABLE expectations. It can be highly controversial to walk out from a hard-earned Foreign deal nevertheless as apparent in the case of how Trump administration treated JCPOA. Therefore, Biden administration does not have much room to maneuver in Afghanistan. Nothing is certain however.

EMPHASIS # 1: Pakistan must have a clearly stated and documented Foreign Policy for Afghanistan, and Americans should be notified in CLEAR TERMS about it. This should have been the case years ago.

Let us be honest with each other.

1.1. The state (i.e. Pakistani Leadership) provided access to Americans in Afghanistan. Isn’t this obvious to every (Patriotic) Pakistani here on PDF, or do these members have dementia?

1.2. Americans have investments in Afghanistan and they won't just pack up their bags and leave as per wishes of some Pakistani nationals (or even Afghan Taliban). They will push for a settlement in which their interests are accommodated. Isn't this obvious?

That Afghan Taliban exists in Afghanistan is not much of an achievement really - they are a part of Afghanistan and were ALWAYS THERE. Even when American troops were in Kandahar, Afghan Taliban was right there staring at faces of American troops passing by. Late Emir of Afghan Taliban Mullah Omar lived and died in Afghanistan.

Some PDF members love to tout about combat prowess of Afghan Taliban and are rooting for them. The Afghan Taliban have a history of launching SPRING OFFENSIVE(s) on yearly basis but have utterly FAILED to take over major population centers and/or topple Kabul regime. People continue to die in this unfortunate conflict (Afghan Civil War) and the outcome is a STALEMATE.

Now I am not blind or stupid - I understand how different countries conduct their affairs and strive for desired ends around the world. There is no need for any member to remind me about perceived EVILS of USA and vice versa on a consistent basis. I do not live on planet Mars or in a cave. There are numerous Americans who are beneficiaries of overseas conflicts in fact. Eric Prince called for Privatization of War in Afghanistan. Do you see these Americans cowering in Fear at statements of the Afghan Taliban? They are like YAWN and/or just as eager to fight. This is MADNESS.

Conflict in Afghanistan is taking a toll on Pakistan by extension.


WE also have CPEC to manage.

EMPHASIS # 2: There must be a strong push from the state (i.e. Pakistani Leadership) for BEST POSSIBLE resolution of conflict in Afghanistan. WE will continue to face the dilemma of re-negotiations with successive American administrations otherwise. This is FRUSTRATING dynamic to be honest.

(2) As I pointed out earlier, some have utter disdain for USA and openly consider it to be an enemy state. Some members of PDF are of the view that USA colluded with India to create TTP to damage Pakistan. I chose to remind these people about US-led operations against TTP with publicly accessible documented evidences and scholarly works (OSINT). For example, Americans assassinated Baitullah Mehsud in 2009 - a move which caused succession crisis in TTP ranks and this organization was never the same afterwards (good for Pakistan, right?). So how am I supposed to perceive this development in person as a distant observer? Gaalian doon Amerikion ko? The Anti-American members mistook my objective contentions for advocacy of USA here on PDF; what I find rather strange is that some of these members are living in Western countries (NATO member states) and beneficiaries of their openness. An Facepalm moment.

EMPHASIS # 3: It is the responsibility of the state (i.e. Pakistani Leadership) to investigate and explain ORIGINS of terroristic forces such as TTP and the sort, and make their findings Public*.

*If USA is indeed found to be guilty of colluding with India to create TTP to damage Pakistan then what should Pakistan do in response?

CUT OFF THEIR ACCESS to Afghanistan via Pakistan, period. Have some PRINCIPLES to be honest.

But where is Pakistani official documentation which established the aforementioned culpability? Statements from ISPR are also welcome.

For reference: https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/

9/1/2010​
Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan (TTP)

Similarly, it is the responsibility of the state (i.e. Pakistani Leadership) to explain WHY Pakistan is providing access to Americans in Afghanistan.

The FIRST and FOREMOST clarity should have been in regards to causes of American intervention in Afghanistan since 2001.

The 9/11 Attacks—A Study of Al Qaeda's Use of Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Osama Bin Laden tapes

Does the state (i.e. Pakistani Leadership) acknowledge the aforementioned? if YES then this view must be clearly stated and conveyed to Pakistani masses.

Similarly, it is the responsibility of the state (i.e. Pakistani Leadership) to investigate and explain causes of Pakistan-USA tensions in times of Obama administration**.

**Remember Abbottabad Commission Report? Al Jazeera made it Public. This was the responsibility of Pakistani Leadership instead. To this day, Pakistani Leadership have not commented on leaks by Al Jazeera and/or expanded on this REPORT in Public. To this day, people ask questions about this incident and there is difference of opinion over it. How will Pakistan learn anything from its experiences with this level of DISCONNECT between the state and the Public?

The way forward for Pakistani nationals

EMPHASIS # 4:
The state (i.e. Pakistani Leadership) should strive for consensus-building on significant issues concerning Pakistan. This initiative can be helpful in building a national narrative in regards to any significant issue concerning Pakistan, and can mitigate misconceptions/misunderstandings in relation.

WE cannot change our neighborhood, and WE cannot undo USA either. WE have no choice but to CO-EXIST with and LISTEN to others. WE do not OWN this world; WE have realistic limitations. It is important to realize that Pakistan is not above and beyond criticism in international discourses. WE must learn to handle criticism with grace and grit. This is not to say that WE become subservient to others – refer back to my point about consensus-building on significant issues concerning Pakistan above. But HATING other countries is not helpful either. Pakistan cannot have meaningful relationships with numerous countries as a NATION due to prevalence of so much difference of opinion and expressed negativity towards each other. This dynamic make us vulnerable to exploitation by external forces (the so-called 5th generation warfare).

These are times of rampant Conspiracy Theories, Propaganda, Fringe Media Sources, and Yellow Journalism. It is increasingly difficult to trust (and tell) who is RIGHT and who is WRONG in regards to any theme consequently. Popular opinions are not necessarily true either. Therefore, being hyper-judgmental is not helpful in Public discourses. It is of paramount importance to respect authentic Scholarly works and Evidences in Public discourses. WE must strive for OBJECTIVITY and RATIONALISM at personal level and also at national level.

My sincere message to the hyper-judgmental types is that you guys are not doing any favors to this Forum. You guys assume that you are doing the right thing but you are making discussions unproductive and making it difficult for the Moderators to cope with things here.

It is rather convenient for overseas Pakistani to lecture locals about Patriotism but how many of you understand issues of locals and/or those who are caught in the conflict? Even if you have lived through one, you need to tone down your rhetoric.

Pakistani security is of paramount importance (no ifs and buts) but so is socioeconomics - these are intertwined themes in fact. Can you have good security without ample funds to spare for the needful? Without R&D sectors providing technologies and Think Tanks providing directions? Those who strive for peace and socioeconomics are lesser Pakistani than others?

- Being hyper-judgmental is not a quality but stupidity.
- Being too paranoid is not a quality either and makes one prone to bad judgement(s) instead.

Forum Rules

These rules are created for good reason and if people cannot respect them then they have a hand in damaging this Forum. You are inadvertently helping rival Forums grow instead. Go figure.

@Dalit
@Path-Finder
 

War Thunder

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LOL when I said this I was portrayed as a madman. I have been saying this for decades now. Now the truth comes out and it is gospel.

Everyone knew all along American designs against Pakistan. They are in Afghanistan to contain Pakistan and transform it into a vasal state. Basically a bitch state. We have senior members on this forum that naively believe in cordial relations between the US and Pakistan. LOL the US is the largest trade partner of Pakistan LOL Give me a break. Trade relations that are literally peanuts and also meant to blackmail and keep Pakistan on a leash. Even after all the treachery and backstabbing for decades upon decades some of us believe in falsehoods. Yet here we are. Naive and confused what to do.

This morning I saw pigeons flying and I immediately thought of Pakistan. The sort you tame, cage and train. They obediently eat, crap and fly, but always return to their base. Ready to enter the cages and be imprisoned willingly. That is what the Americans want to do with Pakistan. Cage it like an animal, but also tame it. Denuclearise Pakistan and keep strengthening Hindustani nuclear status. Strengthen Hindustani economy and keep Pakistan hand to mouth. Object when Pakistan cooperates with China to boost the economy. Turn Pakistan into a slave. A colony that obeys Indian and US commands. We have people in Pakistan who have no issues with becoming a bitch.


Slave minded wannabe's whose god resides in Washingotn DC are and have always been a problem for our country.
 

TMA

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Do not forget. The Gog and Magog world order seeks to bring about Imposter Israel as the ruling state post Pax Americana. If I was the Zionist Deep State of the US, I would never ever want to leave Afghanistan.
 

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