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To all Indian members here. A question...

Indischer

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Hey buddy, 好久不见! :woot: Hope you're doing well!

The interesting thing is that the facts in the (still classified) Henderson-Brooks report seem to largely match the information that is publicly available and used in the general academic discourse surrounding the 1962 War.

Yet there are still a huge number of Indians who say that: "China attacked India out of the blue, for no reason at all!"

The opinion from the Indian media seems to be that this above viewpoint was propagated by the ruling Congress Party in India, to cover for Nehru's mistakes, which would have showed their own party in a bad light.

No doubt the upcoming Indian elections had everything to do with the "timing" of when this report was released.

Hopefully this will improve the general level of debate regarding the 1962 War, a tragedy that could have otherwise been avoided.
Purely from an Indian standpoint:

To me, the biggest blunder was Indian recognition of Tibet as sovereign Tibetan territory. It deprived us of all legitimacy with regards to the McMahon line in AP/South Tibet and the Johnson line in Aksai Chin, which the British had negotiated with a de-facto independent Tibet. But recognizing Chinese suzerainty over Tibet, we lost the legitimacy of these borders, to which China was not party and had always failed to validate them.

The next big blunder was in our failure to 'understand' the psyche of PRC/CCP. It didn't help that Nehru was an idealist lost in his merry non-alignment and his advisors were spineless sycophants. They collectively lived in denial that they had a hot-cake stuck in their throat, and when the offensive finally began, it was a sudden and shocking surprise, which should never have been the case had they been pragmatic like their CCP counterparts.
 

PoKeMon

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@CardSharp @Chinese-Dragon

Hendersen-Brooks report put Nehru as guilt in letting Indian army down but he didn't question his intent of securing Indian land(real or perceived).

Nehru was right in a way that he tries to secure territory which we think belongs to us, but he was wrong in calculating the response from china while doing so. He never thought that china will attack so he didn't did the homework of assessing the army potential and repercussions a conflict may have.
 

Chinese-Dragon

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@CardSharp @Chinese-Dragon

Hendersen-Brooks report put Nehru as guilt in letting Indian army down but he didn't question his intent of securing Indian land(real or perceived).

Nehru was right in a way that he tries to secure territory which we think belongs to us, but he was wrong in calculating the response from china while doing so. He never thought that china will attack so he didn't did the homework of assessing the army potential and repercussions a conflict may have.
The Forward Policy involved setting up military outposts far beyond the MacMahon Line, in the Eastern sector where India doesn't even claim any territory!

That was in pure Chinese land, not in disputed territory. India never claimed territory beyond the MacMahon Line, but they set up military outposts there!

Nehru thought we wouldn't respond, because China at that time was collapsing from the worst famine in our history (the Great leap forward). And the fact that we were surrounded on all sides by two enemy superpowers, the USA and the USSR.

He thought he could steal land from a nation on the verge of collapse from starvation, and that we were too weak to respond. But he was wrong.
 

Genesis

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Yeah largely nehru's fault,i'll admit.But that doesn't excuse current chinese demands on arunachal pradesh which is a hindi speaking area of people who want nothing with china and share tibetan culture that has been decimated across the border.
62 i agree was idiot nehru's greed and blindness.
I'm not entirely sure China wants to pursue that part of land, but we can't just be letting it go for nothing. Especially if we are to let that part go, what would that look like in terms of Tibet.

India has to give something even if it's symbolic, like removing the Lama and telling him to get lost. It's not like India is supporting them or has a shot of using them anyways now days.

India should make the gesture of recognizing Tibet as China in full, like no more Lama, condemn international Tibet movement as a separatist movement like the West has done to Crimea.

These moves won't cause India a cent, but it will end a dispute in everyone's interests, we avoid war, India keeps the land and ends the dispute, while we erase the issue of Tibet from the international agenda. This can be seen as a coup from both sides.
 

PoKeMon

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The Forward Policy involved setting up military outposts far beyond the MacMahon Line, in the Eastern sector where India doesn't even claim any territory!

That was in pure Chinese land, not in disputed territory. India never claimed territory beyond the MacMahon Line, but they set up military outposts there!

Nehru thought we wouldn't respond, because China at that time was collapsing from the worst famine in our history (the Great leap forward). And the fact that we were surrounded on all sides by two enemy superpowers, the USA and the USSR.

He thought he could steal land from a nation on the verge of collapse from starvation, and that we were too weak to respond. But he was wrong.
India was facing a femine as well, and can you please provide any link to vindicate that Indian army did establish posts beyond Macmohan line?

Nehru was not expecting any military conflict. Indian army wasn't even prepared for that. More than perceived weakness of china, it was a sense of brotherhood which deceived him.
 

Chinese-Dragon

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Purely from an Indian standpoint:

To me, the biggest blunder was Indian recognition of Tibet as sovereign Tibetan territory. It deprived us of all legitimacy with regards to the McMahon line in AP/South Tibet and the Johnson line in Aksai Chin, which the British had negotiated with a de-facto independent Tibet. But recognizing Chinese suzerainty over Tibet, we lost the legitimacy of these borders, to which China was not party and had always failed to validate them.

The next big blunder was in our failure to 'understand' the psyche of PRC/CCP. It didn't help that Nehru was an idealist lost in his merry non-alignment and his advisors were spineless sycophants. They collectively lived in denial that they had a hot-cake stuck in their throat, and when the offensive finally began, it was a sudden and shocking surprise, which should never have been the case had they been pragmatic like their CCP counterparts.
The thing is, no country in the world (both then and today too)... recognized Tibet as an independent country. No one at all.

In fact they only managed to rule themselves separately due to the Chinese Civil War, which was a small window of opportunity, but no one in the world recognized them.

So India would have been the only one to recognize them, obviously India did not find this palatable, so they did not.

But India did support the Tibetan Government in Exile, who staged a violent armed uprising against China in 1959, and after losing and fleeing, were hosted by India in a direct challenge to China's territorial integrity.

So in a way I agree with you, India should have been more consistent, either challenge us on Tibet or not.

In fact India did both, recognized our authority, and then challenged it by hosting the Tibetan Government in Exile.
 

Chinese-Dragon

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And can you please provide any link to vindicate that Indian army did establish posts beyond Macmohan line?
Uh, according to India's own Henderson Brooks report?

Dhola Post that triggered war was on China's side of McMahon Line | Business Standard

Nehru was not expecting any military conflict. Indian army wasn't even prepared for that. More than perceived weakness of china, it was a sense of brotherhood which deceived him.
You must be joking.

Nehru's sense of "brotherhood" led to him starting the Forward Policy against us?

Is that really your definition of brotherhood? Do you attack your brothers while they are starving?
 

Hulk

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I genuinely want to know what Indian members here think about the 1962 war. Please be frank, my feelings won't be hurt and I'm not likely to get offended. I really want to get the Indian perspective on it as a student of history and perspectives.

Was the 1962 war a result of China stabbing India in the back?

What was the sequence of event that lead to the war?

Was Nehru's fault?

Do Indians think there are parallels to the reported incursion recently?

Thanks in advance for any reply
I think some of the educated people who have access to information might think that it could be Nehru's fault. However, the issue is the our Government is not open about it and hence there is some confusion. I personally do not blame China for it, it looks like Nehru did not made good decision.
 

PoKeMon

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One or two post doesn't mean anything. May be a miscalculation on not very firm demarcation of border.

You must be joking.

Nehru's sense of "brotherhood" led to him starting the Forward Policy against us?

Is that really your definition of brotherhood? Do you attack your brothers while they are starving?
Perception difference. How can securing our part is attack on china?
 

Chinese-Dragon

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One or two post doesn't mean anything. May be a miscalculation on not very firm demarcation of border.



Perception difference. How can securing our part is attack on china?
Read the Henderson Brooks report, Nehru was setting up military outposts BEYOND the MacMahon Line, in territory that was not even disputed!

This was a report compiled by the Indian Army itself, and it blames Nehru's Forward Policy for starting the war!
 

PoKeMon

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Read the Henderson Brooks report, Nehru was setting up military outposts BEYOND the MacMahon Line, in territory that was not even disputed!

This was a report compiled by the Indian Army itself, and it blames Nehru's Forward Policy for starting the war!
Look if he was deliberately doing that then he is responsible for war but my opinion is if the digression into china was not much then it could be because of unclear demarcation of border area.
 

CardSharp

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Look if he was deliberately doing that then he is responsible for war but my opinion is if the digression into china was not much then it could be because of unclear demarcation of border area.
Hey buddy, 好久不见! :woot: Hope you're doing well!

Yes it's been 4 years and It's nice to see you active, I'm doing good, a happy life and all that.

The interesting thing is that the facts in the (still classified) Henderson-Brooks report seem to largely match the information that is publicly available and used in the general academic discourse surrounding the 1962 War.
I think the Henderson-Brooks report was one of those open secret. It's there for anyone to look, but there for no one to recognize.
 

Chinese-Dragon

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Yes it's been 4 years and It's nice to see you active, I'm doing good, a happy life and all that.
Glad to hear that brother. You should set up your flags for China and Canada, if you're still living there. :)

I think the Henderson-Brooks report was one of those open secret. It's there for anyone to look, but there for no one to recognize.
Exactly, in fact Neville Maxwell had access to this report all along it seems.

So many people were trying to discredit Neville Maxwell, now it turns out he was actually the one with insider information from the Indian Army's own internal report, which they made "classified" when it turns out it didn't support Nehru's story!
 

AUSTERLITZ

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I'm not entirely sure China wants to pursue that part of land, but we can't just be letting it go for nothing. Especially if we are to let that part go, what would that look like in terms of Tibet.

India has to give something even if it's symbolic, like removing the Lama and telling him to get lost. It's not like India is supporting them or has a shot of using them anyways now days.

India should make the gesture of recognizing Tibet as China in full, like no more Lama, condemn international Tibet movement as a separatist movement like the West has done to Crimea.

These moves won't cause India a cent, but it will end a dispute in everyone's interests, we avoid war, India keeps the land and ends the dispute, while we erase the issue of Tibet from the international agenda. This can be seen as a coup from both sides.
Thats possible,and forego our claims to aksai chin.Interestingly though china has no problems with us giving refuge,just any political support for the movement.And increasingly indian circles understand this fait accompli too.
 

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