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Thrifty at Fifty: PAF Mirages.

The Accountant

Aug 13, 2016
I beg to differ in your analysis ,JF17 and J10 are different machines totally one being delta ,thrust vectoring other being decent 4th Gen fighter jet plus at any given day 36 J10s are much better force to work with instead of 72 Overhaull Mirages of 1960s ,for your argument related to cost Im sure any cost accountant like your self can figure out ,hint there is a reason Europe and US retire there planes
Brother its not about airframe ... modern aircraft are more about there sub-systems rather than airframe design ... 27th Feb incidence proved that BVRs will make the WVR war less likely and even in case of WVR it is more about superior electronics specially with HOBS infrared missiles ... JF17s and J10 will have the same tech be it SD10, PL15, PL10, HOBS, Radars (except for number of TRM) and EW pods ...

Europe and US have different priorities ... The labor cost of Europe and US are far much higher than ours plus the original local people and that too willing to go a boring profession of joining the forces is very low on the contrary our labor cost is very low ... Whereas US budget is 80 times higher than our ... can you imagine 80 times means our defence budget is less than 1.5% of US budget

UK has a fleet of total 160 fighter aircraft... The requirement is very low as compared to Pakistan ... They have back of NATO too so you are making an irrelevant comparison ...

UKs border do not require constant patrolling and their airframe require much less duties ...

We are keeping our front aircraft safe for training and war purposes whereas mirages and F7s are primarily being used for peacetime operations ...

He is talking about commonality of Weapons and Avionics, all Chinese ( JF-17 and J-10 ) If you can counter weapons/avionics on one then it be easy to counter the other, he is not comparing the body.

I do agree that J-10C be better option to the used Mirage-Vs.
Exactly ...

THere is no doubt about it but our original plan was to keep atleast 2 different platforms one was to be F16s for air superiority and second JF17s the work horse to do all the majority of the tasks however plan is not working and if it remains at stalemate then we might definitely move towards J10Cs as we dont have any other option but somehow apparently PAF is still hopeful

Hassan Guy

Aug 23, 2016
I think its time to really consider pulling off an Iran and start reverse engineering some airframes and get an rd-33 in there


Nov 18, 2015
United States
airframe have already completed life
The Mirage III/V? Not quite yet, going by the last interview in AFM about the Mirage overhaul factory.

Ideally, the stop gap plane we would need would have to be in case AZM project is depayed (will happen for sure) and it would have to bring capabilities a step ahead of the current F-16s in our service. That leaves only 3 jets to pick from realistically, newer block 70 F-16 ( least likely), Rafale (potentially) and Eurofighter (ideally). As much as we might want to plug in a Chinese option in this bracket, it's not comparable. The only option from them is the J-10 which in my opinion is subpar to our current F-16s, and we need something that is actually a lot better. There are other reasons not to induct a third Chinese aircraft in the PAF concurrent to the JF-17 and the AZM next gen fighter (most likely to be Chinese origin or codesign).
I would like to see the Typhoon, maybe just two squadrons worth even, as it is the ideal interceptor with very quick take-off and acceleration and it's design at the same time allows it to cap long duration caps while consuming little fuel. It might also give us some insight into operating an aircraft with new building techniques and technologies (1990s vs 1960s) that hopefully could see it's way into our own project AZM


Sep 24, 2018
United States
United States

You have to learn to manipulate china to give you the aircraft on lease---soft forgivable loan---.

You had china by the ballz when the indian sub surfaced near karachi---china still has not slipped away---.

Paf refused 18 J10 B's im 2012-13 for immediate delivery---.
what is the point of getting aircraft your pilots have not trained on ?


Yessir---out of existing stock---.

Pakistan gets manipulated with a weak air force---. A very strong air force by 2004-05 would have brought in peace deal with India---.

We would have resolved the Kashmir dispute---.

You buy major weapons in a timely manner for the opponent to make peace---.

In 2005---once Paf donated its funds for F16---and claimed they had no more funds for aircraft---India walked away from an almost done peace deal.

You have to understand---why the JF17---it is not for what the aircraft can do---it is for Jobs for the Paf officers during service and after retirement---.

Otherwise why does an air force need to build an aircraft---no reason.


Paf hated Gen Musharraf---. What Gen Musharraf did was cancel the order of 4 swedish eyerie awcs---and ordered 4 chinese awacs insteda---to diversify in case of swedish sanctions---.

The Paf hated him for that---then to top it off---Gen Musharraf Ordered 36 J10's as well---and the Paf was mad at him---.

China offered the J10's in a similar manner when in the late 90's they offered F7PG's to pakistan and Paf stated that they will take them when needed.

They were thinking that the F7PG was an inferior aircraft like the other F7's---but china gave them guarantees---and when Paf tested it---it was way beyond their expectations.

So---not getting the J10's is a matter of ego for the Paf---.

If the J10 came and proved to be superior or as good as the F16---the Paf would be slammed to the ground and put to shame---.

Please understand what is a JF17 aircraft---.

It is an aircraft similar in performance to the French F1 mirage that Paf could have procured in the early mid 80's with all the assembly and production rights---.

So---our BLK 1 JF17 had the same performance as that of the 1984 mirage F1---but the Mirage F1 had 2 times longer life cycle than that of the JF17---and engine with a longer life span.

That is why I call Paf traitors---they have no intention of gaining air superiority any where---.
Fighting a defensive air war is one thing. Fighting an air campaign deep into enemy territory is another.
Conducting air strikes against enemy ground forces (like USAF) is third matter @MastanKhan


Apr 16, 2008
More parts acquired from past operators so looks like mirages will out live f-7s and pg plus it’s still very capable aircraft for its role
7, 8, 15, 22, 25, 27 and ccs sqn ie 7 total

7 years for mirage if everyone sqn is converting to jf

4 sqn of f-7 p/pg left

So 7+4 minimum of 11 years for all 2gen replacement at min.

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