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The U.S. Air Force Just Admitted The F-35 Stealth Fighter Has Failed - Forbes

dr.knowhow

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@dr.knowhow , look like KFX/IFX program chooses the right decision.......
Well, I don't think these recent arguments for a new clean sheet 4.5~5 gen fighter jet instead of buying the F-35s has any merit. Fmho its actually very contradicting in itself.

Apart from that, I never thought having KF-X like aircraft for ROKAF was ever a bad idea so there's no need for extra validation for that. :happy:


Pierre spey is a dumbass he was against BVR missiles and radars and wanted the F-16 to have only Sidewinders and a minigun. Thank God he didnt get his way.
Well he hates F-15 because it costs a lot. What do you expect from such person?


LOL - you know nothing. :blah:

The F-16 was designed by Harry Hillaker influenced by Col John Boyd and his EM ( Energymaneuverability) theory.
Sprey was working on the A-10* while he occupied the office next to Col John Boyd at the Pentagon.

Like I said before, find me someone who has flown, fought with or maintained the F-35 that has criticized the aircraft.
I'm not interested in the opinion of dinosaurs and his outdated senile notions.
No offence but I'm also not interested in the opinion an uninformed Pakistani such as yourself.

* at the time Sprey official position at the Pentagon was analyst to the Secretary of defense.
He assisted Avery Kay the chief designer of the A-10 unbeknownst to the Pentagon or the Air force.


I mean we need to give him some credit of taking part in the figther mafia thing, though the problem is modern day F-16s are nothing like what the fighter mafia originally came up with. Now it has become a pseudo F-15 with an equivalent complexity and comparable cost with a bit less capability. The gap in CPFH between those narrowed down and came pretty close as well as the flyaway costs.

One should note that someone that comes up with a great idea once doesn't necessarily mean he/she will do so again, although a lot of people here doesn't seem to understand that.
 

dbc

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I mean we need to give him some credit of taking part in the figther mafia thing, though the problem is modern day F-16s are nothing like what the fighter mafia originally came up with. Now it has become a pseudo F-15 with an equivalent complexity and comparable cost with a bit less capability. The gap in CPFH between those narrowed down and came pretty close as well as the flyaway costs.

One should note that someone that comes up with a great idea once doesn't necessarily mean he/she will do so again, although a lot of people here doesn't seem to understand that.
It is difficult to assess his contribution to the F-16 or the A-10 since he was involved in an unofficial capacity. I've read Col John Boyd's memoirs he does mention informal discussions with his neighbor across the hall at the Pentagon.
! suspect the guy is riding the coat tails of real pioneers such as Boyd and Avery Kay. Even so, his ideas are so outdated. He peddles a small, cheap hot rod with a big gun.

David Axe implies the plans to explore 4.5 Gen options translates to abandonment of the F-35 program.
The reality, the acquisition plans and numbers for the F-35 remains unchanged.
The core theme is the realization that the F-35 is such a force multipler it increases the combat efficiency of cheaper legacy 4th Gen fighter.

So I concluded that the author spun the above into a negative for the F-35 program.
 

CrazyZ

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USA like Texas is on the verge of becoming a right wing dystopia.....1.7 Trillion on plane that may have its production cut and role superseded. Imagine If that money had been invested in education or civilian tech/industry :cry:. I don't understand some right wingers, spending a few billion on winterizing power plants (recommended by regulators) is costly socialism......but Trillions spent on wars and defense is okay???
 
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F-35 did not fail. They just incorrectly thought it was 'low end' enough to produce like the F-16. It's actually high end in the style of F-15s. It's too expensive for 2000+, but definitely OK for 900-1000.
 

dbc

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USA like Texas is on the verge of becoming a right wing dystopia.....1.7 Trillion on plane that may have its production cut and role superseded. Imagine If that money had been invested in education or civilian tech/industry :cry:. I don't understand some right wingers, spending a few billion on winterizing power plants is costly socialism but Trillions spent on wars and defense is okay???
1.7 Trillion Dollars is the biggest lie propagated by F-35 haters. It is the projected cost of F-35 over the entire life of the program over 55 years, including fuel, spares , facilities and personnel.
If you want my tax dollars to pay for your jacuzzi move to France. Winterizing power plants for a once in 75 year cold spell doesn't make any sense.

It counts every possible cost to operate and modernize the F-35 during a 25-year production run, followed by a 30-year operational life. It represents a half-century’s worth of fuel, parts, upgrades, and even related construction costs.

ERCOT officials have said that some power generators implemented new winter practices after the freeze a decade ago, but they were voluntary. Woodfin has said that during subsequent storms, such as in 2018, it appeared that those efforts worked. But he said this storm was even more extreme than regulators anticipated based on models developed after the 2011 storm. He acknowledged that any changes made were “not sufficient to keep these generators online” during this storm.

It's unclear how much winterizing power sources would cost power plants or the state, but experts and industry leaders say it won't be cheap.

“If you wanted to over engineer the ERCOT grid so this could never happen, the cost would be astronomical,” said Bernadette Johnson, senior vice president of power and renewables at Enverus, an oil and gas software and information company headquartered in Austin.


“If you wanted to over engineer the ERCOT grid so this could never happen, the cost would be astronomical,” said Bernadette Johnson, senior vice president of power and renewables at Enverus, an oil and gas software and information company headquartered in Austin.

Peter Hartley, an energy expert at Rice University, echoed that sentiment.
"Canada runs power systems with weather colder than this all the time," he said. "A lot of these problems you can fix by spending money. There is a question: If you have low probability of an extreme event, do you want to spend the money?"
 

CrazyZ

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1.7 Trillion Dollars is the biggest lie propagated by F-35 haters. It is the projected cost of F-35 over the entire life of the program over 55 years, including fuel, spares , facilities and personnel.
If you want my tax dollars to pay for your jacuzzi move to France. Winterizing power plants for a once in 75 year cold spell doesn't make any sense.




Unwinterized power plants become a problem for Texas once a decade and winterization is far cheaper then the damage and economic losses seen in the current debacle.

My lessons learned is that the extreme left is as bad as the extreme right. Best approach for USA is to be in the middle (which it historical has been).....the conundrum today is the USA is too heavily polarized between the extreme right and extreme left (bogging every thing down).

USA today needs to strengthen itself at home and focus on enhancing its overall strategic strength. That means reducing war and defense spending as well as reducing tensions with rivals, IMO. These should and can be ramped up if needed.

Hopefully F-35 tech can go into enhancing the situational awareness of USA strategists and policy makers. :lol:
 

dbc

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Unwinterized power plants become a problem for Texas once a decade and winterization is far cheaper then the damage and economic losses seen in the current debacle.

My lessons learned is that the extreme left is as bad as the extreme right. Best approach for USA is to be in the middle (which it historical has been).....the conundrum today is the USA is too heavily polarized between the extreme right and extreme left (bogging every thing down).

USA today needs to strengthen itself at home and focus on enhancing its overall strategic strength. That means reducing war and defense spending as well as reducing tensions with rivals, IMO. These should and can be ramped up if needed.

Hopefully F-35 tech can go into enhancing the situational awareness of USA strategists and policy makers. :lol:
You didn't read the information I furnished earlier - did you? It was a once in 75 year drop in temperature.
The measure taken to address the 2011 freeze proved ineffective in 2021.

The F-35 generates employment here at home, it generates exports and it keeps US skills and knowhow sharp and well ahead of anyone else.
 

SQ8

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you seem butthurt. I increase your butthurt.
now enjoy the butthurt. feel the butthurt. smell the butthurt. taste the butthurt. let the butthurt flow thru you. savor the butthurt. love the butthurt. adore the butthurt.
Shall I quote you the biography of John Boyd?
He was fairly close to Sprey but the design input came as @dbc has outlined.

The F-35 isn’t a dud, but is plagued by the same issues the F-111 was by trying to be too many things at once. The F-35A is a great aircraft and beats anything out in the sky today and in an advanced ADGE.

However, for bombing a militia in whatever is left of Libya it is overkill. That is the USAF’s contention. Similarly, it’s LO mission makes it incapable of carrying a lot of ordinance and using its external pylons makes it no more effective than a F-16 against these targets.

So the requirement is for these aircraft to dominate the initial fight and then the 4.5+ gen aircraft handle the less demanding roles while also reducing cost per hour.
You didn't read the information I furnished earlier - did you? It was a once in 75 year drop in temperature.
The measure taken to address the 2011 freeze proved ineffective in 2021.

The F-35 generates employment here at home, it generates exports and it keeps US skills and knowhow sharp and well ahead of anyone else.
As a Texan - that is BS, the republicans basically screwed everyone over by not planning for changing weather patterns and giving too much leeway to power companies.
 

GumNaam

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Shall I quote you the biography of John Boyd?
He was fairly close to Sprey but the design input came as @dbc has outlined.

The F-35 isn’t a dud, but is plagued by the same issues the F-111 was by trying to be too many things at once. The F-35A is a great aircraft and beats anything out in the sky today and in an advanced ADGE.

However, for bombing a militia in whatever is left of Libya it is overkill. That is the USAF’s contention. Similarly, it’s LO mission makes it incapable of carrying a lot of ordinance and using its external pylons makes it no more effective than a F-16 against these targets.

So the requirement is for these aircraft to dominate the initial fight and then the 4.5+ gen aircraft handle the less demanding roles while also reducing cost per hour.

As a Texan - that is BS, the republicans basically screwed everyone over by not planning for changing weather patterns and giving too much leeway to power companies.
of course f35 is not a dud...its been instrumental in keeping a whole lotta pockets of politicians full of contribution money & whole lotta military industrial complex filthy rich. and of course, f35 has also created tens of thousands of jobs across the u.s. but never mind that fact that those jobs could've been hundreds of thousands of jobs had the f35 money been spent on education & healthcare. but who needs that right? education & healthcare are overrated anyways. ;)
 

SQ8

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of course f35 is not a dud...its been instrumental in keeping a whole lotta pockets of politicians full of contribution money & whole lotta military industrial complex filthy rich. and of course, f35 has also created tens of thousands of jobs across the u.s. but never mind that fact that those jobs could've been hundreds of thousands of jobs had the f35 money been spent on education & healthcare. but who needs that right? education & healthcare are overrated anyways. ;)
Strawman semantics - plenty of projects that could save the budget on education and healthcare which are part of a bigger discussion and beyond just the “F-35 is a dud”.

On that topic, other than conjecture nothing useful has been brought up to actually go over the capabilities of the aircraft and its shortcomings in terms of compromised unified performance.
 

dbc

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As a Texan - that is BS, the republicans basically screwed everyone over by not planning for changing weather patterns and giving too much leeway to power companies.
I lived in the UK, Norway and France. If you think we have money to mitigate against sudden dramatic changes in weather then you are being naïve. London pretty much grinds to a halt at the very sighting of the first snow flake. Germany and Norway are better at handling the cold but outrageously unprepared for spells of hot weather. As for the US, I'd much rather invest the money in moving power lines underground.

.
 

GumNaam

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Strawman semantics - plenty of projects that could save the budget on education and healthcare which are part of a bigger discussion and beyond just the “F-35 is a dud”.

On that topic, other than conjecture nothing useful has been brought up to actually go over the capabilities of the aircraft and its shortcomings in terms of compromised unified performance.
man just shut the verbal gymnastics and ask yourself one simple question...is there anything that the present combination of f16s (or f18s for navy) under the cover of sensor laden awacs aircrafts canNOT do? and don't gimme that horse crap about "network centricity"...the dirty little secret is that it has always been there.
 

SQ8

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I lived in the UK, Norway and France. If you think we have money to mitigate against sudden dramatic changes in weather then you are being naïve. London pretty much grinds to a halt at the very sighting of the first snow flake. Germany and Norway are better at handling the cold but outrageously unprepared for spells of hot weather. As for the US, I'd much rather invest the money in moving power lines underground.

.
Ive lived in the UK as well - so this is a poor excuse to give me.
The basic measures of even having backup generators at the generator sites capable of handling extreme weather was missed - on top of it, texas’s “go it all” approach meant it was out of the national grid which at the least could have compensated to an extent.
man just shut the verbal gymnastics and ask yourself one simple question...is there anything that the present combination of f16s (or f18s for navy) under the cover of sensor laden awacs aircrafts canNOT do? and don't gimme that horse crap about "network centricity"...the dirty little secret is that it has always been there.
Why don’t you get off the blanket conclusions and the high horse you’re on and we’ll talk more.
As far as capabilities go - the F-35 kills F-18’s and F-16s with ALL their capabilities in every red flag. Walks right through the highest concentration of simulated red ADGE , and finishes it’s mission.

4 F-35s get done what would need 4 F-18’s on strike, 4 on cover and 2 Ea-18s to support.
That’s basic math.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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@SQ8 the F-35 is possibly the closest thing to a 'special operations forces fighter' ever made. You could have an LHD out there carrying F-35Bs, AH-1Zs, and UH-1Ys alongside a SEALS unit. This force could launch Abbotabad-style missions all over the world from the seas. They won't take out an enemy military force, but for very specific effects, this as good a unit as you could deploy from sea without sending an entire fleet.

In other words ... the F-35 is an amazing niche fighter, but it isn't a generalized fleet-builder like the F-16 or F-15. It'll always get the job done, but I guess even the US can't readily sustain the cost of using the F-35 in that manner to the extensive degree it uses the F-16s.
 

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