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Featured 'The System'-by WAJsal

Discussion in 'Pakistani Siasat' started by WAJsal, Oct 14, 2016.

  1. Chauvinist

    Chauvinist FULL MEMBER

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    I do nothing.. just directly sit on board and kill or killed... Game ko game hi rehna chahiye until ap Usay profession nahi bna rahy ho.. so main itna sir pay sawaar nhi krti
     
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  2. Nilgiri

    Nilgiri ELITE MEMBER

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    Where do you play online so we can try set up a match or two? :P

    I will go easy on you if you want ;)...or maybe you will have to go easy on me lol
     
  3. CHI RULES

    CHI RULES FULL MEMBER

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    Sorry Sir. but Hazrat Ameer Mavia was one of Sahabas we should maintain respect level whether we like political decisions of him or not. By the way thousands of muslims including notable figures were allies of Hazrat Ameer Maviah.You should have solid points for accusing Hazrat Ameer Mavia regarding Hadith part. Sayyid Abul A'la Maududi has mentioned in his book Khilafat Au Malukiat that Jihad in an Islamic state is declared by Govt further the matter of Karbla should be left in hands of Allah.

    Every sect is quoting Ahades as per their own benefits however there are many Mutfiq Alieh Ahadeth though lesser in number yet may prove to be sufficient for guidance.
     
  4. Syed.Ali.Haider

    Syed.Ali.Haider ELITE MEMBER

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    Thank you for a great read showing your hopes. i am sorry for the late reply but I was out of town. Before I comment in detail, may I ask two questions, which, I think, are relevant to the conclusions you wish to make:

    1. What is the evidence that leads you to say that the Army has realized that ruling the country is not its job? This much insisted-upon change is a claim that needs to be assessed for accuracy:

    2. The ruling elite are used to total impunity. Why and how would they allow checks to be placed on thier unbridled power that the are accustomed to under the present system?

    Let me place a counter view, very briefly (to be expanded later): Any claims of change are an illusion created to defuse any demands to give up absolute power as it has corrupted the elite in Pakistan totally and irreversibly.

    Now, before I am accused of being a pessimist yet again for the 487,293rd time, let us discuss the evidence each one of us can put forward to support their claims.
     
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  5. Neutron

    Neutron PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST

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    Nice write up @WAJsal

    Absolute power is absolute corruption. Thats why neither monarchy nor dictatorship is reasonable for civilized world.
    In my humble opinion democracy is the best module of governance. I want to clarify my support to democracy is not my vote for corruption. Black sheeps and rotten eggs should be flashed out through continuous and transparent enforcement of rule of law. The doctrine, rule of law is very old concept of good governance.

    The many flaws in our democratic system are not the cause instead effect of weak Judicial system of our country. Without strong judiciary democratic values cannot flourish anywhere in the world. Failure of democracy is the by product of failure of our judiciary.

    So dear fellow countrymen,

    If you want to fix the flaws of democracy, better fix judicial system.
     
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  6. sady

    sady FULL MEMBER

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    I like what the author proposes but who will bell the cat?
    If the onus is on people to select good govs and supposed political awareness of masses is the key then I must admit we are being too naive or worse , over optimistic.
    The Pakistani elite must realise that the self serving antics and hanky panky needs to be in the ambit of law as is the conduct of elite anywhere in the world. They need to be less greedy and share some with ordinay joe so atleast he can get healthcare, a roof over his head and a moderately paying job. The rest they can use to send of to their offshore accounts as any respectable politician would do or profit a certain corporate sector if very honest. In short there is not a lot what is asked from them. Why they are still greedy? Because they can be and that greed has no boundary. In west they have set certain rules, one anyone with right effort and brains can reach up there, second give enough to average joe that he only works and worry about his next holidays and leaves the rest to those special kind from Eton.

    Now how will our political elite keep us slaves as they always have,
    One, propaganda and opinion making by buying off tabloids as well as high quality publications. Dawn News ,Jang etc and all evening news papers as well as tv Journalists. Without education this misshapen political education will not yield good results. Machiavellian politics at it's best. Fake awards and fake sense of progress etc is music to ears of those who had nothing coming positive their way for years.
    Two, Exploiting ethnic and biraadri divides, the vote bank will remain static and less likely to change. PPP lost the previous election only in Punjab and Balochistan as these were never its strong areas however won strongly from interior Sindh where it will remain entrenched. PML N regained its heartland of Punjab after being swept away with sympathy vote post BB assassination. In short rather than being voted out for corruption PPP has only been deflated to its original size. PTI took over the reigns from ANP both banking on Pakhtoon origin, the very reason PTI finds hard to find sizeable recognition in Punjab.

    Three, without any external and internal force of change to anticipate a gradual shift is too much to digest. With Army also potentialy slowly losing its capacity to exert force from shadows and to act as catalyst of change, Pakistan in theory will be left to the dogs. Judiciary have been disappointing in self accountability and reform. International players smell blood in Pakistan, high on ideas of balkanization of the one of the few remaining potentially strong muslim countries with Geo strategic significance in regional and international games in multi polar world, carry another agent of opposition to positive political progress in Pakistan. A spineless , corrupt and self serving at the helm of affairs is far easy to control and manipulate than an upright and strong willed leader.

    The solution part is handicapped by catch 22 situation. No amount of strengthening of system and institutions done while having unconstitutional Government will yield permanent results and constitutional govs will never strengthen the system nor the institutions as that will mean giving away a head start advantage. Establishments can play their role to the point their bluff is called, in this scenario the only solution is to either watch and wait till everthing goes down a spiral or favor any political civil movement looking for change or looking to rattle the system atleast. Proposing to change nothing and working with same and hoping things will gradually change is a delusion, nothing more.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
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  7. Proud-muslim

    Proud-muslim FULL MEMBER

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    This might seem a little off and rude but in my opinion what matters is the people that run the system and not the system. Both systems can work given the right people. And both can fail (as history has shown) given the wrong people.

    I know that PDF doesn't like or allow or considers against its rules to talk about deen / religion ...but for me I derive a lot of understanding from Islam. We know that for corrupt people are corrupt rulers. Infact in a sinning muslim society the most corrupt person is annointed the leader as punishment.

    I know it is difficult for democracy lovers and dictatorship lovers to accept this but this is how it is and you have to open your eyes and look at things in an unbiased manner.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  8. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Sir,

    That observation is ' incorrect '. If you have a rice pudding for desert---then that is what you have---' rice pudding '.

    Politicians are a representation of the public who elects them---when you re-elect someone that you kicked out twice in the past---humiliated and degraded him as well---put him jail and ready to hang him as well---.

    And then when you re-elect him and his family---and if he does not meet your expectations---it is your stupidity that is a problem.

    When people are waiting in line for their turn to get to the top so that they can loot and plunder their share---the solutions for that nation are a little different for the momentous problem that it is facing.
     
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  9. Kaptaan

    Kaptaan PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Thanks for tagging me

    I think your wrong there. The middle class is larger in Pakistan then in India (by %) but the problem is pseudo-Islam has infected it and curtailed all the attributes that class normally brings to the fore and on the other hand exaggerated ostentatios consumerism. It is lose lose double time.

    I think the path to future is only through democracy. The military simply is incapable of doing it. In fact I think Pakistan started with military being more competant than democrats in running the country (Ayub Khan) but ever since every military ruler has been worse. Whereas I think the democrats have improved and will improve over time. Let the system slowly evolve - that is the natural order. Evolution is the key not revolution.

    The one man revolution only works in countries that are homogenous and have history of unity without vertical divisions. Examples are Turkey, Korea, Germany or China. Pakistan is too diverse and only democracy will work.
     
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  10. Joe Shearer

    Joe Shearer PROFESSIONAL

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    Sir,

    I respectfully disagree.
    1. The matter has been put very nicely, indeed elegantly, in #99.
    2. I would add to that, in direct response to you, that a form of the Pareto Principle applies to politics.
    3. Further, in extension of #99, that the efficiency curve applies to politics as well, and that one of its keys is unbroken work. Pakistan's politics has been interrupted four times, so this is her fifth iteration; the lesser efficiency is apparent, and that is what you are mistaking as a problem for the nation for which there is a solution. There is no quick solution; you have to stick to it and make democracy work. For instance, by you shutting up shop in the US and coming back and standing for municipal councillor (that is not a personal attack, merely an example).
    4. As an history student, I can trace your reaction to the state of affairs back to Athens in the 5th century BC, and the days of the Thirty Tyrants, before Pausanias restored democracy. There has always - always - been a conservative set of people in every society who wanted the rule of the meritorious, of a miraculously corruption free class, of disciplined rulers who saw to everybody's just deserts and fair contributions, and never, ever played the game for themselves.At certain points of Indian history, society saw the Brahmin as the ideal of such a ruling class (not a ruler, the administrator faithfully serving him and doing exactly what they wanted); at your point of historical development, you have your own Brahmins and you treat them the way Hindu Indians treated Brahmins, with identical consequences.
    There are no shortcuts. As the Greek teaching a king explained to his royal pupil, there is no royal road to geometry.
     
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  11. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    But this is no geometry---. For the criminal---corrupt and perverted politicians---there is only one solution---either it is at the end of a barrel---or at the end of a rope---.

    The examples of romans are well and good---but when the time is flying by you at warp speed---then that is not a luxury you can enjoy to teach everyone democracy---then it has to be forced thru a revolution.

    It is a 7---14 days process to clean up the mess and by the time the 30th days hits---all the systems are running in a more functional manner---.

    Some nations learn it by talking---others thru elections---for pakistanis---it will be thru executions---because each nation has to follow the process that suits them better.
     
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  12. SekrutYakhni

    SekrutYakhni BANNED

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    I think it is immoral to not include Pakistani Military in it. When ISI Chief and Traitor Musharraf were having a deal with BB (including American/British neocolonial representatives) - They decided that BB would form the next government. How could they come up with such a CONCLUSION even before elections? That's just one example.

    Problem is apart from tens of "supporters" that we can see on media - Elections in Pakistan were never real.

    Orchestrated by the corrupt political and military elite.

    If you want to solve problems - Please hang corrupt generals. They are the ones that pumped NS, BB etc

    Of course, judiciary and business elite is responsible too.

    One more problem: Military spends $ and coerces certain segments of the society to remain a dominant force. With that comes lots of printed $ (some of goes to "xxx" account #) and much more.

    Real power must be given to people THAT includes military personnel, politicians etc - They are PAID to SERVE. Can't do that? Resign and move over. Patriotic BS has blinded people. They are not coming to terms that their military and political elite has fu*ed them pretty hard - All thanks to printed $!
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  13. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    The thing is that the Generals can easily be put inline and shown their limitations---they still have some discipline ingrained in them to accept orders.

    With the Pakistani politicians---there is no such thing.

    Nawaz and Benazir sold Pakistan's interest to India and to the U S---. Benazir went so far as requesting india to attack pakistan to force the generals to accodate her.

    Nawaz otoh---sold pakistan to india to help him fight against Musharraf. Both Nawaz and Benazir had U S behind their campaign to oust Musharraf.
     
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  14. SekrutYakhni

    SekrutYakhni BANNED

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    Yeah man - Every story has a similar ending!

    Pak Generals didn't optimize country's interests after 9/11 because Americans threatened.

    Pak Generals couldn't do anything against BB/NS because India threatened (with American support) - Even before all the threats, generals pumped these people to the top. Why? Who were they? Who gave them this right?

    If that is the case - Let's take all the $$$ back from these Generals that they got from abroad + confiscate their land. Why should taxpayers be responsible of their cowardness? Or should I say they are complicit..

    If they are a chicken and so concerned about their country - Why have those $ accounts?

    Truth is: It's not just those threats. It's also the $. If proper system is put in place, milk & honey will stop flowing. It hurts them a lot.

    It really does!

    I understand that printed $ and some corruption is really important to kickstart innovation/incentives etc

    But the problem is: The elite just believes in corruption WITHOUT doing what they are supposed to do!

    Either the politicians are corrupt or the generals too scared..

    Reality is: They both are corrupt to the core.

    Neocolonialism will die and I am hoping it'll take puppets with it..
     
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  15. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    During Zia Ul Haq's term---the politicians realized that they cannot live without the military---they came up with a unique idea---they started marrying into military families.

    During Zulfiqar Bhuttos regime the strong political families realized that one member of the family should be in each of the top two parties----father in one---son in the other---or wife or daughter or brother or uncle in either party----so that the control does not go away---.

    So---what is secret about the Yakhni
     
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