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The Quran learning made mandatory for university students in Punjab

EasyNow

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And what is your personal conclusion about this finding? Anything goes or is there no Islam left in our time?
I will tell you the simple answer and one that will strengthen Islam in society:

Only the state should mandate religious interpretation. No need for every 2bit expert to read Qur'an and decide for themselves
 

krash

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This is general knowledge. Everybody knows that. All you are saying is that there is only a little understanding about what Islam is. Please tell me, The Prophet (PBUH) knew, the major companions had a direct link to the source, but what about us? Is there any way for us to know? The Quran is too complicated, the Hadith not so easy to decipher too, what shall we do? I will not believe that the Quran is just a random order of words that nobody understands or only tries to understand.
Again, strawman. The Quran is contextual and nuanced, not "complicated to decipher". There are outright contradictions in the Quran unless you consider the context as explained in the Sirah. You'd have known this had you actually read it, contrary to your repeated claims.

The discussion started with: If you read Quran on your own, you will go astray. And this is the believe of most Muslims. This is also the major reason why the Quran gets dusty in most households. Reciting contests all over, but nobody ever made the effort to actually read that book. Quran literally means reading. Nobody is all-knowing in every field, but we have a guideline in form of the Quran to consult! And I also I never said to read the Quran without knowing any context to it!
"You cannot understand the Quran by itself, you will misunderstand it. You need the Sirah as well."


What did we talk about wasting other people's time?

English is my third language, so please be nice :cheesy:.
Oh ok but you can understand the ancient form of Arabic poetry in the Quran without a problem.

Is the Quran a source of misguidance when I read it on my own, yes or no? When I am unable to read it on my own, I need a mullah right? Who knows better and is in control of my religion afterwards. If yes, how can we prevent that?
Anything is a source of misguidance and corruption in the hands of one who does not know how to use it. As has been amply demonstrated by the Mullah, the TTP, and ISIS. The Mullah's MO is exactly what you are advising. Please don't pin it on me.

Call it mullah, scholar, teacher or what ever, but they control the religion. You know that Jews and Christians are cursed for taking their monks and rabbis as quasi gods? Where is the difference between them and us when we have the same structures as them?
That is ignorance speaking. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about or how the Islamic scholastic tradition actually works.

I know what you are saying. Yes, it doesn't matter for what you are saving for. Zakat is due when the amount is above the nisab! 1/40th of the amount must be paid as Zakat.
Where did you come up with that 'ruling'? Please provide me a clear source from the Quran.

Also, you are wrong but that's besides the point and not the discussion.

You will find that rate in Sahih Hadith but the general duty is defined in the Quran and practically implemented in the example of the Prophet (PBUH)!
So you do need the Sirah and not just the Quran to understand Islam?

Furthermore, where did you get the Sahih Hadith from? How do you know that that Hadith is Sahih? What is a 'Sahih' Hadith? How do you know that it is how it was "practically implemented in the example of the Prophet (PBUH)"? Did the Quran tell you that? Did you receive an omen?

But how to go astray afterwards? The good Muslim will do anything to find out how to pay Zakat correctly and he will know that he has to consult the example of the Prophet (PBUH)! The same for prayer, the Quran doesn't explain how to pray, the Prophet (PBUH) taught us how-to!
And how does that good Muslim find that out? Where will he look? Where did you look?

Please ponder over what just happened for a bit. I entangled you in this not to embarrass you but to make it unquestionably clear through your own words that your stance is false and nonsensical. In typical Pakistani fashion, the words from another just weren't cutting it for you. If you require further cajoling, let me know. I have more convincing examples. If you have an honest stake in the matter, you will need no further convincing. If you do not, no further convincing will be of any benefit. Otherwise, لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ


I never said that the Quran is the only source, it's the main source of Islamic religion.
Not the point, see above.

This is not a competition.
For you it seems to be a matter of not accepting that you are wrong. Otherwise, I see no reason why anyone would stick to so obvious a false claim, least of all a God fearing Musalman.

It's more "difficult" because language evolved but the Quranic corpus is still there.
So now you agree that it is more difficult to understand?

Everyone of those has a personal Mullah telling them what to do and that their doing is rightly guided. My problem is that you state that the Quran (i. e. Islam) is not understandable and we need to ask Monks and Rabbis to get a clear picture. If we say so, we allow people to believe anything and we have to respect that. Right and wrong is not determined by mullahs, if so suicide can also be legalized, degenerates here in Germany even visit prostitutes while having 2 meter beards saying that they are their slaves and stuff like that (I could go on all day long). They all have people on their side, fancy scholars (for dollars). On the day of judgement you cannot hide behind them.

Today Madhabs act like they are all bff (ok, nobody likes Hanbalis), but they fought against each other, they takfirized and outlawed inter-madhab marriages. This is a fact.

When they control the masses and demand blind following it doesn't matter what they are called. Shaykh, Rabbi, Monk, Maulana, Molvi or my favourite "Pir-e-Shariat" have all the same effect.

A good scholar would be one who teaches the religion well and makes himself useless afterwards. But celebrities want fame, so they will come up with even newer BS to justify their existence. $_FILL_IN_MAD_FATWA_FROM_MUSLIM_COUNTRY.
Again, you clearly have no clue how the Islamic Scholastic Tradition works. Ironically, yet again, the examples you gave are from self-acclaimed scholars interpreting the Quran to their liking without any knowledge of it, exactly as you propose. It is a bucket of nonsensical false claims and I refuse to answer them in any further detail.

You made a suggestion where to start and I agreed with that. What's wrong?
............................

See I try to be nice, I even posted on your personal page to make peace, because I respect your knowledge in Islam. Don't give me that attitude.
I'm sorry but as I've told you before, I do not have use for niceties, I'd prefer honesty instead. I'd rather you not lead yourself astray in your ignorance and pursuit of false ana, like a true Pakistani. However, my primary concern remain the millions of other Pakistanis who stand to be lead astray by you. Your respect for my knowledge counts for nothing when the reasons and arguments I give for your benefit are met with "mein nahi manta". Your deliberate denial of very simple and easy to understand facts wears my patience and compassion thin.

Things "that have not been argued" are the logical consequence of saying: when you read Quran on your own, you will go astray. And this statement is just not true. There are enough people who will "help" you "understanding" Islam when they know that you are a sheep-like robot.
Yet more nonsense tailored to only continue the same smoke screen of empty statements and confusion.
 
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El Sidd

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There are outright contradictions in the Quran unless you consider the context as explained in the Sirah. You'd have known this had you actually read it, contrary to your repeated claims.
How where since when?
I will tell you the simple answer and one that will strengthen Islam in society:

Only the state should mandate religious interpretation. No need for every 2bit expert to read Qur'an and decide for themselves
We have Islamic ideology council for that very purpose. Its a consensus based council which is open for the public if they have qualms of any legislature inspired by Islamic fundamentals for clarification and for legitimacy.
 

EasyNow

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How where since when?

We have Islamic ideology council for that very purpose. Its a consensus based council which is open for the public if they have qualms of any legislature inspired by Islamic fundamentals for clarification and for legitimacy.
Is this council's opinion binding? Do they have the authority to establish the acceptable interpretation of texts and can they delegitimise those that fall outside?

20m more Qur'an experts won't solve it I'm afraid - what you need is 200m people accepting and obeying the same rules.
 

El Sidd

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Is this council's opinion binding?
As much as there is governance.
To attribute general governance problems in conservative societies to their religion is highly offensive and unfair.
Do they have the authority to establish the acceptable interpretation of texts and can they delegitimise those that fall outside?
They do. Recently they outlawed many religious books.
20m more Qur'an experts won't solve it I'm afraid - what you need is 200m people accepting and obeying the same rules.
This utopian dream is expected only from Muslims who already form the biggest law abiding group in any country they frequent.
 

El Sidd

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I can show you more then ten
One would be enough.
anyhoo, tell me which of the following Hazraat was the first Muslim according to your understanding of different ayaat in different soorats:

first Muslim was Muhammad? Ibrahim? Yacob? Musa? Adam? alaihim alsalaam ajma'een ( عليهم السلام أجمعين )
First born, first created, first to submit, first to listen, first to read? so many firsts.

you need to be specific
 
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MastanKhan

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The Quran learning made mandatory for university students in Punjab
Students will not be awarded degrees if they do not study the Quran with Urdu translation

Published: June 15, 2020 11:42 Ashfaq Ahmed, Assistant Editor

Chaudry Mohammad Sarwar, left, Governor of Punjab, has issued a notification to make the Quran learning mandatory for the university students in Punjab province of Pakistan. File Photo Image Credit: Gulf News/archive
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Dubai: In a surprise move, Governor of the Punjab Province of Pakistan Chaudhry Mohammad Sarwar has made the teaching of the Quran with translation mandatory in all universities in the province.

Governor Sarwar has issued the notification on Sunday making it mandatory for all the students in the universities (except non-Muslims) to learn the Quran with Urdu translation. The notification states that a student will not be awarded a degree if he or she does not study the Quran — the holy book of Muslims — with the Urdu translation.

“We have decided to make it compuslory to for the university students to learning the Quran with translation. It is a unanimous decisions of vice-chancellors of all the univerities in the province,” Governor Sarwar tweeted in Urdu.




Notification
Governor Sarwar issued the notification in his capacity as the Chancellor of all the universities in the province. In Pakistan, Governor of a province also acts as Chancellor of universities in the province and has the authority to make decisions related to courses and regulations in any university in a province.

“Lecturers in all universities of Punjab will teach the Quran with translation to all students,” said the notification. It added that the holy Book would be taught in addition to Islamic studies, which is already being taught at universities.

Governor Sarwar said that success in the world and the hereafter can only be achieved through proper implementation on the guidelines of the Holy Quran, Geo TV reported.

According to the notification of the committee, the Quran course may have equivalent to one credit hour per year as the relevant university feels appropriate.

The notification says that the assessment of the Quran course must require each candidate to pass/fail. The student may be further assigned a grade as in any other credit subject, if University feels necessary/appropriate. ”As a substitute, the non-Muslim students may be offered the subject of Ethics.

Vice Chancellors agree
In April, the Punjab governor had formed a seven-member committee of vice-chancellors to submit recommendations on how to make the teaching of the Quran with translation compulsory in all universities in the province. All the vice-chancellors agreed to the proposal of the governor.

He told the media on Sunday that the learning of the Quran with translation has been made mandatory because the Book is a complete code of life and its better understanding with translation would help improve the lives of people.

Jamaat-e-Islami influence
Most universities in Punjab have great influence of students from Islami-Jamiat Talaba-- an Islamic students outfit of famus religious group Jamaat-e-Islami. It has been there long-standing demand to include Islamic studies and the Quran teachings in the univeristies.

In Pakistan, Muslims children start learning the Quran as they start attending the primary school. However, they are taught the Quran only in Arabic without translation.

"The Quran learning with translation should be made mandatory in the primary school instead of making the university students attend the Quran classes. It seems the Governor Punjab has taken the decision to win support of the Islamic groups which are quite strong in the province, said a top official.

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pak...-for-university-students-in-punjab-1.72051304
Hi,

There is no compulsion in Islam---. Qura'an should not be forcibly imposed upon the people.

The state should worry about providing justice to the weak and the poor and fight crime.

Readin Qura'an is not one of the 5 pillars of Islam---. It must be taught at a younger age so that children can grow with it---but forcing it over adults---it is strange.
 
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EasyNow

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As much as there is governance.
To attribute general governance problems in conservative societies to their religion is highly offensive and unfair.
First give them the authority to govern and then see if they can make it stick. But to do that you will need agreement from the religious establishment across the country - which is the problem one mustn't talk about.

so yes, in this case lack of governance can be attributed to religion.

This utopian dream is expected only from Muslims who already form the biggest law abiding group in any country they frequent.
Does that include Pakistan? Or do they reserve the best behaviour for dar al harb??


The reason we are talking about govt mandate on religion is because there needs to be better governance of the religious sphere - as well as all others. Just teaching men to read Qur'an in university, will not fix any problems.
 

El Sidd

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First give them the authority to govern and then see if they can make it stick. But to do that you will need agreement from the religious establishment across the country - which is the problem one mustn't talk about.

so yes, in this case lack of governance can be attributed to religion.
Not at all.
They are not law enforcing authority.
The reason we are talking about govt mandate on religion is because there needs to be better governance of the religious sphere - as well as all others. Just teaching men to read Qur'an in university, will not fix any problems.
Pakistan has produced doctors and engineers at a rate of dozen a dime. Has it given healthcare or infrastructure?

This unique lofty position of being under constant criticism can only be afforded by the Muslims.
 

EasyNow

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Not at all.
They are not law enforcing authority.

Pakistan has produced doctors and engineers at a rate of dozen a dime. Has it given healthcare or infrastructure?

This unique lofty position of being under constant criticism can only be afforded by the Muslims.
You are going off on a tangent. This is nothing to do with criticism of Muslims, it's about the value of making university students learn Qur'an whilst studying for a BEng or BSc
 

fallstuff

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Students grow up after that. If you can force Quran on people in University, you might as well also force Namaz on the rest of the awam.

So that Imran Khan feel pious and fulfilled for his fucked up bast*** past life. Nothing else to see here folks. Just Imran Khan trying to make up for his past life by using a whole nation lol
You may have a point there.
 

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